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451
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Infinite Loops List
« on: April 27, 2020, 03:43:41 pm »
ROGUE – BONFIRE LOOP

Setup
Events: Toil, Bonfire
Project: Canal – player cube already there
Trash: 2 King’s Courts, 2 Rogues, Silk Merchant, Monument
Hand: 2 King’s Courts, 2 Rogues, Silk Merchant
Empty deck and empty discard pile

Steps
1 – Play King’s Court
2 – King’s a King’s Court
3 – King’s a Rogue – gain 3 cards from trash – gain $6
4 – King’s a Rogue – gain 3 cards from trash – gain $6
5 – King’s a Silk Merchant – draws 6 cards – gain 3 buys
6 – Play Monument – gain $2 and 1 VP
7 – Buy 3 Bonfires – trash all cards in play
8 – Buy Toil
9 – Play King’s Court
10 – King’s a King’s Court
11 – King’s a Rogue – gain 3 cards from trash – gain $6
12 – King’s a Rogue – gain 3 cards from trash – gain $6
13 – King’s a Silk Merchant – draws 6 cards – gain 3 buys
14 – Buy Toil
15 – Play Monument – gain $2 and 1 VP
Repeat steps 7 to 15 indefinitely for infinite VPs

Roles
Allows repeat same act: Toil
Prevents from stop: Bonfire
Ensures payload: Rogue
Ensures buys: Silk Merchant
Ensures actions: No need (loop in buy phase)
Produces surplus at each cycle: Monument

452
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Infinite Loops List
« on: April 27, 2020, 03:43:01 pm »
TREASURER – BONFIRE LOOP

Setup
Events: Toil, Bonfire, Seaway, Training
Project: Capitalism (player cube already there)
Seaway +1 Buy token in Treasurer pile
Training + $1 token in Treasurer pile
Two Treasurers already in the trash
Two Treasurers in hand

Steps
1 – Skip action phase
2 – Play Treasurer – gain a Treasurer from trash ($4 – 2 Buys)
3 – Play Treasurer –gain a Treasurer from trash ($8 – 3 Buys)
4 – Buy Bonfire – trash two Treasurers from play ($5 – 2 Buys)
5 – Buy Toil ($3 – 2 Buys)
6 – Play Treasurer – gain a Treasurer from trash ($7 – 3 Buys)
7 – Buy Toil ($5 – 3 Buys)
8 – Play Treasurer – gain a Treasurer from trash ($9 – 4 Buys)
Repeat Steps 4 to 8 indefinitely for infinite money and buys

Roles
Allows repeat same act: Toil
Prevents from stop: Bonfire
Ensures payload: Treasurer
Ensures buys: Seaway
Ensures actions: No need (loop in buy phase)
Produces surplus at each cycle: Training for $, Seaway for buys

453
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Infinite Loops List
« on: April 27, 2020, 03:42:21 pm »
VILLA – WAY OF THE HORSE LOOP

Setup
Way of the Horse, Seaway and Villa in the setup
Hand: 4 Highways and a Goons
Seaway +1 buy token in Villa pile

Steps
1 – Play the 4 Highways
2 – Play Goons
3 – Buy Villa – Gain 1 VP from Goons
On gain Villa goes to hand, gives + 1 action and returns game to action phase
4 – Play Villa as Way of the Horse – gain +1 Buy - Villa returns to its pile
Repeat steps 3 and 4 indefinitely for infinite VPs

Variant with Merchant Guild

Setup
Way of the Horse, Seaway and Villa in the setup
Hand: 4 Merchant Guilds and a Goons
4 Villagers in Villagers Mat
Seaway +1 buy token in Villa pile

Steps
1 – Play the 4 Merchant Guilds
2 – Play Goons
3 – Buy Villa – Gain 1 VP from Goons – Gain 4 Coffers from Merchant Guilds
On gain Villa goes to hand, gives + 1 action and returns game to action phase
4 – Play Villa as Way of the Horse – gain +1 Buy - Villa returns to its pile
5 – Play 4 Coffers
Repeat steps 3 to 5 indefinitely for infinite VPs

Roles
Allows repeat same act: Villa
Prevents from stop: Way of the Horse
Ensures payload: Highway (Merchant Guild)
Ensures buys: Seaway
Ensures actions: Villa
Produces surplus at each cycle: Goons

454
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Infinite Loops List
« on: April 27, 2020, 03:41:10 pm »
EXPERIMENT – WAY OF THE CHAMELEON LOOP

Setup
Hand: 3 Highways, Goons
Empty deck and empty discard pile
Way: Way of the Chameleon
Events: Seaway, Gamble
Seaway +1 Buy token in Experiment pile

Steps
1 – Play the 3 Highways
2 – Play Goons – now you have $2 and 2 buys
3 – Buy Experiment at Cost 0 – gain 1 VP from Goons – receive another Experiment
4 – Buy Gamble
5 – Play Experiment as Chameleon – gain $2 and +1 buy (by Seaway token) - Experiment returns to its pile
6 – Buy Gamble
7 – Play Experiment as Chameleon – gain $2 and +1 buy - Experiment returns to its pile
Repeat steps 3 to 7 indefinitely for infinite VPs

Roles
Allows repeat same act: Gamble
Prevents from stop: Experiment
Ensures payload: Way of the Chameleon
Ensures buys: Seaway
Ensures actions: No need (loop in buy phase)
Produces surplus at each cycle: Goons

455
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Infinite Loops List
« on: April 27, 2020, 03:40:26 pm »
FORTRESS – ADVANCE LOOP

Setup
Hand: Priest, Fortress, Trader
Events: Travelling Fair, Advance
Landmark: Tomb

Steps
1 – Play Priest - now you have $2
2  - Trash Fortress
3 – Buy Travelling Fair – now you have 2 buys
4 – Buy Advance
5 – Trash Fortress – gain 1 VP from Tomb and $2 from Priest
6 – Gain any action card from supply (Advance)
7 – Use Trader reaction to instead gain a silver
Repeat steps 3 to 7 indefinitely for infinite VPs

Roles
Allows repeat same act: Travelling Fair
Prevents from stop: Trader
Ensures payload: Priest
Ensures buys: Travelling Fair
Ensures actions: No need (loop in buy phase)
Produces surplus at each cycle: Tomb

456
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Infinite Loops List
« on: April 27, 2020, 03:39:45 pm »
FORUM – TRADER LOOP

Setup
Forum on Kingdom
Play Area: 5 Highways or 5 bridges and a Goons
In Hand: Trader

Steps
1 – Buy Forum – Gain 1 VP from Goons
2 – Reveal Trader to instead gain a Silver
Repeat steps 1 and 2 indefinitely for infinite VPs

Roles
Allows repeat same act: Forum
Prevents from stop: Trader
Ensures payload: Highway (Bridge)
Ensures buys: Forum
Ensures actions: No need (loop in buy phase)
Produces surplus at each cycle: Goons

457
Dominion General Discussion / Infinite Loops List
« on: April 27, 2020, 03:38:56 pm »
By the way, has someone compiled a list of all known infinite combos?

Following this suggestion of Holger, I’m starting this topic for us to list the known infinite loops with Dominion cards. I think it's also a better place to post them, instead of cards interaction thread where I was doing these posts.

I know these loops often need configurations that will never occur in a random game. However, that’s the beauty of Dominion: being a whole system of interrelated elements, it allows many approaches besides playing a competitive match. I myself have a lot of fun trying to find these loops and analyzing them.

On the following posts, I will describe the loops I read about and some I’ve found.

To make sense, the loops must be productive, giving a surplus amount of some resource at each cycle and not only doing a repetitive aimless act.

For each loop posted, I will try to identify the cards that do the fundamental roles for any infinite loop works. These roles I think are six (five if loop doesn’t occur in action phase):

- Allows repeat the same act
- Prevents from stop
- Ensures payload
- Ensures buys
- Ensures actions
- Produces surplus at each cycle

I would like to know the loops you already know, so please post them here, if you would like to. Thank you very much.

458
For that loop, you don't actually need to net an action each time as long as you have 1 to start, so you can replace the Seaway+Villa with just Cavalry, if you were able to draw your deck.

I don't think so. You still would need an action each cycle to play the Cavalry.

459
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Cards essential to infinite loops
« on: April 27, 2020, 05:11:33 am »
Events: Toil, Bonfire
Project: Canal – player cube already there
Trash: 2 King’s Courts, 2 Rogues, Silk Merchant, Monument
Hand: 2 King’s Courts, 2 Rogues, Silk Merchant
Empty deck and empty discard pile

1 – Play King’s Court
2 – King’s a King’s Court
3 – King’s a Rogue – gain 3 cards from trash – gain $6
4 – King’s a Rogue – gain 3 cards from trash – gain $6
5 – King’s a Silk Merchant – draws 6 cards – gain 3 buys
6 – Play Monument – gain $2 and 1 VP
7 – Buy 3 Bonfires – trash all cards in play
8 – Buy Toil
9 – Play King’s Court
10 – King’s a King’s Court
11 – King’s a Rogue – gain 3 cards from trash – gain $6
12 – King’s a Rogue – gain 3 cards from trash – gain $6
13 – King’s a Silk Merchant – draws 6 cards – gain 3 buys
14 – Buy Toil
15 – Play Monument – gain $2 and 1 VP
Repeat steps 7 to 15 indefinitely for infinite VPs

460
Possibly neat, but how is this potentially uesful?

Sorry, I will start a topic for these infinite loops. Thank you!

461
You do need Royal Seal even if you drew your deck because Treasurer gains to hand.

Yes, I forgot Treasurers gains to hand. Considering this, you don't need to topdeck them if you use Toil instead of Gamble:

Events: Toil, Bonfire, Seaway, Training
Project: Capitalism (player cube already there)
Seaway +1 Buy token in Treasurer pile
Training + $1 token in Treasurer pile
Two Treasurers already in the trash
Two Treasurers in hand

1 – Skip action phase
2 – Play Treasurer – gain a Treasurer from trash ($4 – 2 Buys)
3 – Play Treasurer –gain a Treasurer from trash ($8 – 3 Buys)
4 – Buy Bonfire – trash two Treasurers from play ($5 – 2 Buys)
5 – Buy Toil ($3 – 2 Buys)
6 – Play Treasurer – gain a Treasurer from trash ($7 – 3 Buys)
7 – Buy Toil ($5 – 3 Buys)
8 – Play Treasurer – gain a Treasurer from trash ($9 – 4 Buys)
Repeat Steps 4 to 8 indefinitely for infinite money and buys

462
Events: Gamble, Bonfire, Seaway, Training
Project: Capitalism (player cube already there)
Seaway +1 Buy token in Treasurer pile
Training + $1 token in Treasurer pile
Two Treasurers already in the trash
Two Treasurers and a Royal Seal in hand

1 – Skip action phase
2 – Play Royal Seal (now you have $2 and 1 Buy)
3– Play Treasurer – gain a Treasurer from trash - topdeck it ($6 – 2 Buys)
4 – Play Treasurer –gain a Treasurer from trash - topdeck it ($10 – 3 Buys)
5 – Buy Bonfire – trash two Treasurers from play ($7 – 2 Buys)
6 – Buy Gamble ($5 – 2 Buys)
7 – Play Treasurer – gain a Treasurer from trash - topdeck it ($9 – 3 Buys)
8 – Buy Gamble ($7 – 3 Buys)
9 – Play Treasurer – gain a Treasurer from trash - topdeck it ($11 – 4 Buys)
Repeat Steps 5 to 9 indefinitely for infinite money and buys

You don't need Royal Seal if you already drew your whole deck.

(Edited to fix steps numbers)

463
Way of the Horse and Villa in the setup
Hand: 4 Merchant Guilds and a Goons
4 Villagers in Villagers Mat

1 – Play the 4 Merchant Guilds - Gain 4 Coffers from Merchant Guilds
2 – Play Goons
3 – Buy Villa – Gain 1 VP from Goons
On gain Villa goes to hand, give + 1 action and returns game to action phase
4 – Play Villa as Way of the Horse – Villa returns to its pile
5 – Play 4 Coffers
Repeat steps 3 to 5 indefinitely for infinite VPs


I think this doesn't work? If you play Villa as Way of the Horse, you don't get the +buy back, so you run out of buys.

It works! I tried it at Dominion Online.

However, in the first posting I missed the Seaway part, even though I had already used it in the test. I edited later to include. Thank you.

The complete loop is this:

Way of the Horse, Seaway and Villa in the setup
Hand: 4 Merchant Guilds and a Goons
4 Villagers in Villagers Mat
Seaway +1 buy token in Villa pile

1 – Play the 4 Merchant Guilds
2 – Play Goons
3 – Buy Villa – Gain 1 VP from Goons – Gain 4 Coffers from Merchant Guilds
On gain Villa goes to hand, gives + 1 action and returns game to action phase
4 – Play Villa as Way of the Horse – gain +1 Buy - Villa returns to its pile
5 – Play 4 Coffers
Repeat steps 3 to 5 indefinitely for infinite VPs

You can use Highways instead of Merchant Guilds for the same result. In this case, you don't need the Villagers and Coffers:

Way of the Horse, Seaway and Villa in the setup
Hand: 4 Highways and a Goons
Seaway +1 buy token in Villa pile

1 – Play the 4 Highways
2 – Play Goons
3 – Buy Villa – Gain 1 VP from Goons
On gain Villa goes to hand, gives + 1 action and returns game to action phase
4 – Play Villa as Way of the Horse – gain +1 Buy - Villa returns to its pile
Repeat steps 3 and 4 indefinitely for infinite VPs

464
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Cards essential to infinite loops
« on: April 26, 2020, 01:05:40 am »
Way of the Horse definitely works but horses and experiments don't. The key is Way of the Horse can return a card that was throned, and thus can allow you to play any action and return that action to the supply. Horse and Experiment just let you return themselves to the supply, they can't cause other actions to get returned.

I've found an infinite loop with Way of the Horse without a throne card:

Way of the Horse, Seaway and Villa in the setup
Hand: 4 Merchant Guilds and a Goons
4 Villagers in Villagers Mat
Seaway +1 buy token in Villa pile

1 – Play the 4 Merchant Guilds
2 – Play Goons
3 – Buy Villa – Gain 1 VP from Goons – Gain 4 Coffers from Merchant Guilds
On gain Villa goes to hand, give + 1 action and returns game to action phase
4 – Play Villa as Way of the Horse – gain +1 Buy - Villa returns to its pile
5 – Play 4 Coffers
Repeat steps 3 to 5 indefinitely for infinite VPs

465
Way of the Horse, Seaway and Villa in the setup
Hand: 4 Merchant Guilds and a Goons
4 Villagers in Villagers Mat
Seaway +1 buy token in Villa pile

1 – Play the 4 Merchant Guilds
2 – Play Goons
3 – Buy Villa – Gain 1 VP from Goons – Gain 4 Coffers from Merchant Guilds
On gain Villa goes to hand, give + 1 action and returns game to action phase
4 – Play Villa as Way of the Horse – gain +1 Buy - Villa returns to its pile
5 – Play 4 Coffers
Repeat steps 3 to 5 indefinitely for infinite VPs

466
This one I think is new:

Hand: 3 Highways, Goons
Empty deck and empty discard pile
Way: Way of the Chameleon
Events: Seaway, Gamble
Seaway +1 Buy token in Experiment pile

1 – Play the 3 Highways
2 – Play Goons – now you have $2 and 2 buys
3 – Buy Experiment at Cost 0 – gain 1 VP from Goons – receive another Experiment
4 – Buy Gamble
5 – Play Experiment as Chameleon – gain $2 and +1 buy (by Seaway token) - Experiment returns to its pile
6 – Buy Gamble
7 – Play Experiment as Chameleon – gain $2 and +1 buy - Experiment returns to its pile
Repeat steps 3 to 7 indefinitely for infinite VPs

467
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Cards essential to infinite loops
« on: April 25, 2020, 10:05:50 pm »
Way of the Horse definitely works but horses and experiments don't.

I created an infinite loop that works with Experiment:

Hand: 3 Highways, Goons
Empty deck and empty discard pile
Way: Way of the Chameleon
Events: Seaway, Gamble
Seaway +1 Buy token in Experiment pile

1 – Play the 3 Highways
2 – Play Goons – now you have $2 and 2 buys
3 – Buy Experiment at Cost 0 – gain 1 VP from Goons – receive another Experiment
4 – Buy Gamble
5 – Play Experiment as Chameleon – gain $2 and +1 buy (by Seaway token) - Experiment returns to its pile
6 – Buy Gamble
7 – Play Experiment as Chameleon – gain $2 and +1 buy - Experiment returns to its pile
Repeat steps 3 to 7 indefinitely for infinite VPs

468
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Cards essential to infinite loops
« on: April 25, 2020, 07:23:15 pm »
Way of the Horse definitely works but horses and experiments don't. The key is Way of the Horse can return a card that was throned, and thus can allow you to play any action and return that action to the supply. Horse and Experiment just let you return themselves to the supply, they can't cause other actions to get returned.

If it is the only way that Way of the Horse could be an infinite-loop enabler, it also doesn't work, since you still have to remove Throne Room from play.

469
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Cards essential to infinite loops
« on: April 25, 2020, 06:46:29 pm »
Of the 11 cards listed there, I am pretty sure that most of them can't actually form infinite loops, since I don't think a card that just returns itself is sufficient; it needs to get the other combo pieces out of play.

In particular, I don't see any way in which Madman, Spoils, Wish, Experiment, Horse, or Fortress would suffice.

Thus, I would guess that the list is just:
Mandarin
Mint
Way of the Butterfly
Way of the Horse
Fortress
Bonfire
Forum

With Way of the Horse, any action becomes a Horse, so if it works Horse itself has to work. And so, also Experiment.

470
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Cards essential to infinite loops
« on: April 25, 2020, 06:41:57 pm »
Another thing: Buying a Mint trashes treasures in play, which probably can be used to set up infinite combos. So we need to add Mint to the list.

I thought it before, but now I don΄t think it works, since you have to remove the treasures from trash. You can do it with Treasurer, but in this case you will need another of these enablers to remove Treasurer from play.

471
I don’t know if someone already post this one. Sorry for post again, if it’s not new.

Hand: Priest, Fortress, Trader
Events: Travelling Fair, Advance
Landmark: Tomb

1 – Play Priest - now you have $2
2  - Trash Fortress
3 – Buy Travelling Fair – now you have 2 buys
4 – Buy Advance
5 – Trash Fortress – gain 1 VP from Tomb and $2 from Priest
6 – Gain any action card from supply (Advance)
7 – Use Trader reaction to instead gain a silver
Repeat steps 3 to 7 indefinitely for infinite VPs

Edit: right after I posted this, someone mentioned this combo in another post, so it's already known. Sorry for repost.

472
In the discussion in the topic above, the list was reduced to these 11 cards:

Mandarin
Madman
Spoils
Wish
Experiment
Horse
Way of the Butterfly
Way of the Horse
Fortress
Bonfire
Forum

The challenges remain the same:

- Create an infinite loop without the cards from this list

- For any card in this list, create an infinite loop that uses this card but no other card from this list (or indicate an already known such loop).

The loops must be productive, giving you some amount of something at each iteration.

473
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Cards essential to infinite loops
« on: April 25, 2020, 03:23:52 pm »

You're missing some other self-trashers like Embargo and Treasure Map (and Feast, if you want to include removed cards). However, trashing a card from play can only ever lead to an infinite turn when there's a way to return cards from the trash. So if we want a list of minimal size, I'd restrict this category to "Cards that remove cards from play without trashing them", and instead add the far fewer cards that return cards from the trash. Thus your list is reduced to:

Cards that remove cards from play without trashing them
Mandarin
Madman
Spoils
Wish
Experiment
Stockpile
Horse
Way of the Butterfly
Way of the Horse,

i.e. 9 cards, plus the 5 cards that remove cards from the trash and the 7 cards that can be bought repeatedly, for a total of only 21 cards that enable infinite loops.

I don't think that "Cards that make at least one action/treasure play that doesn’t put a card in play area" can create an infinite loop on their own since they still require to put themselves (and usually their target) in play: at best you get e.g. three plays out of one Action card in play with King's Court, but never infinitely many since the King's Court and its target card remain in play, reducing the finite number of cards that can still be played (in the absence of cards that do remove cards from play).

Edit: We can also remove Stockpile from the list since it is always exiled when played, so you can only play them a finite number of times. (There's no card that can remove it back from the Exile mat when the pile is gone -Transport only works on Actions.)

2nd Edit: Since there's no way to reduce the costs of Events (AFAIK), the only card that can actually be bought repeatedly an umlimited number of times (without having already achieved infinite $) is Forum (with cost reduction and Trader). So I think we're down to 14 cards total.

Thank you! I think you’re right. I was mistaken in many thoughts in this reasoning.

Considering what you said, the cards that remove cards from trash also don΄t work, since they have to be removed from play when played too. The exception seems to be Fortress, which can be trashed by Advance (an event with cost $0) and removed from trash without playing any card. Of course, in the loop you have to produce the +buys for new Advances.

About Stockpile, Treasurer can remove it from trash, enabling the other Stockpiles to leave exile. However, in this case, the problem would be the same above, Treasurer has to be removed from play itself. So, it doesn’t work.

About the cards that remove cards from play to trash, I think you’re right, but Bonfire seems to be an exception. Since it can trash any type of played card, maybe it could enable a loop with the aid of a card that allow play actions in buy phase, loop in which you can trash and recover from trash the cards needed and also produce the payload for a new Bonfire.

Finally, I don’t know if exists nowadays a card that can pin your opponent if she isn’t a bot. If exists such a card, it can be an enabler of an infinite loop in infinite turns, doing in each of these turns the same thing that give you VPs without reduce the piles, like playing a Monument.

Besides this last case, if I’m not wrong again at some point, the list of infinite-loop enablers seems to be reduced to these 11 cards:

Mandarin
Madman
Spoils
Wish
Experiment
Horse
Way of the Butterfly
Way of the Horse
Fortress
Bonfire
Forum

474
Puzzles and Challenges / Create an infinite loop with a specific card
« on: April 24, 2020, 02:07:04 pm »
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20306.0


On the topic above, we discuss which cards are infinite-loop enablers and why.

From the discussion, I came up with this list of the cards that without one of them you can’t create an infinite loop:

1.   Acting Troupe
2.   Band of Misfits
3.   Bonfire
4.   Captain
5.   Citadel
6.   Counterfeit
7.   Crown
8.   Death Cart
9.   Delve
10.   Disciple
11.   Engineer
12.   Experiment
13.   Forum
14.   Gamble
15.   Horn of Plenty
16.   Horse
17.   Inheritance
18.   King’s Court
19.   Madman
20.   Magic Lamp
21.   Mandarin
22.   Mining Village
23.   Mint
24.   Overlord
25.   Pillage
26.   Pixie
27.   Procession
28.   Pursue
29.   Raze
30.   Scepter
31.   Scouting Party
32.   Small Castle
33.   Spoils
34.   Stockpile
35.   Throne Room
36.   Toil
37.   Travelling Fair
38.   Urchin
39.   Way of the Butterfly
40.   Way of the Horse
41.   Way of the Mouse
42.   Wish

On the other hand, if a card in this list is a real infinite-loop enabler, it, by definition, doesn’t need another of these enablers to build an infinite loop.

So, the challenges are:

- Create an infinite loop without the cards from this list (which I think it’s impossible)

- For any card in this list, create an infinite loop that uses this card but no other card from this list (or indicate an already known such loop).

The loops must be productive, giving you some amount of something at each iteration.

475
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Cards essential to infinite loops
« on: April 24, 2020, 01:29:14 pm »
You can trash Stockpiles and gain them from the trash to move them out of Exile. I admit I haven't read the entire discussion, so I'm not certain this is relevant in context.

Yes, it's relevant, thank you! This way it can work as an infinite-loop enabler.

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