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426
Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: May 06, 2020, 03:17:45 pm »

Cathedral is already the 2nd strongest card-shaped thing in the game and not only is this way stronger, there's a 50% chance that only one player can buy it on turn 1 which puts the other at a severe disadvantage.

The only situation one player can buy it on turn 1 and the other not is if only one player have a hand with two coppers and three estates on turn 1. I think this chance is smaller than 50%, doesn't?

Anyway, the other player always can buy it on turn 2, so the first buyer wiil be only one trash ahead. Is it really so severe? I mean, the same situation could occur with any trasher depending on hands.

427
Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: May 06, 2020, 06:00:03 am »
My entry:



Quote
Great Cathedral • $4 • Project

At the start of your turn, choose one: exile a card from your hand; or put a non-treasure card from exile into your hand.

Cathedral meets Island and Save.

It brings a lot of versatility at the start of your turn.

The first option (exile a card from your hand):

- For junk or weak cards, works in a similar way as Cathedral, getting rid of one per turn (Cathedral to trash, Great Cathedral to exile).

- For VP cards, works as a permanently princed Island, put them away without lose them. This enables start greening earlier.

The second option (put a non-treasure card from exile into your hand):

- Makes exiling not compulsory. If you don’t want to unmake a good hand, you can choose get a card from exile, even if it is a junk, like sometimes we choose gain a curse when attacked by Torturer.

- With a hand with terminal collision, enables Great Cathedral act as Save, with more control: exile one terminal, get it back in a turn you want to use it.

Many good options, but you can do only one per turn, so it’s not overpowered.

Cathedral effect is better in first turns, Save effect in midgame and Island effect after start greening.

Since the Cathedral effect is better when starts early, I made it $4. If it costs $6, it would be slow in cleaning comparing to good cheap trashers. If $5, a player with 5-2 could take advantage. So $4 and all players could open with it, if they want.

Open with Transport –  Great Cathedral could seem too strong at first, you can play a Goons at turn 3, for example, but also you can do it if you open Transport-Transport. So, I think it’s fine at $4.

It speeds up Transport and Camel Train, since you can play in your next turn cards exiled by them. It’s also very good but not extreme, effect is similar to when you topdeck a gained card.

Great Cathedral can’t put treasures from exile into your hand, so you can’t use it as a kind of an early Crypt, can’t get to hand the golds exiled from Camel Train gain (which could be too strong in first turns) and can’t combo it with Way of the Camel or Stockpile  (which could be also too strong, a Hireling that always gives a gold or a gold with +buy).

-- Edited to change cost of the card to <8> (see post below) --

New changed entry:



Quote
Great Cathedral • <8> • Project

At the start of your turn, choose one: exile a card from your hand; or put a non-treasure card from exile into your hand.

The cost at <8> make it available to all players on turn 1 and make it not strictly better than Cathedral. Also it leaves <1> to be paid on turn 3 if bought on turn 1, so the cost to buy it on turn 1 would be: buy nothing more on turns 1 and 2 and reduce your payload on turn 3. I think it makes it a less obvious opening strategy over others available on kingdom, especially if it has good trashers.

428
Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: May 06, 2020, 03:09:15 am »


I’ll save you all the google and tell you the definition of thelony is, “A toll or custom required from travelling merchants as a tax on doing business.” (Source: Wikipedia)

Quote
Thelony — ($6)(Action - Attack - Duration)(005v2)
At the start of your next turn: +1 Card, +1 Action, +1 Buy, and +$1. While this is in play, when any other player discards a card from their Exile mat, they take 1 [Debt Token].

The attack half of this card never changed, though I have considered limiting it by saying “While this is in play, the first time each other player discards a card from their Exile mat, they take 1 [Debt Token].”

The tricky part was the other half. I considered just about everything (adjusting card cost as I did). I started to settle on the idea of a delayed City (after all, if a Caravan is a delayed Lab, adding an Action would make a delayed City). But it didn’t quite fit the theme of taxing merchants, so I added the +1 Buy & +$1. Now, on the surface it looks like a Market, but it is really taxing merchants to build up to a delayed lvl 3 City.

Now for the cost. This is the part I have been most uncertain of. I considered Caravan, a $4-costing cantrip & delayed Lab. I imagined adding the +1 Action to Caravan would likely make it worth $5; and adding +1 Buy & +$1 would likely make it worth $6. But Caravan starts as a cantrip where Thelony does nothing on play; I hope that difference justifies the attack portion being there.

Open to suggestions.

If this would be the only card in kingdom related to exile mat, the attack part won't work. Your opponents will never discard a card from exile.

429
Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: May 05, 2020, 03:03:08 pm »

Quote
Sanctum

+1 Card
+1 Action

Choose one: put a card from Exile into your hand; or you may Exile a card from your hand that you do not already have a copy of in Exile.

Action
$4

If this is the only card related to exile mat in Kingdom, you probably won't have a good card in exile mat to use first option, since almost always is better play it in the first time it's in your hand. The exception is if you draw dead a good action, but in this case it seems like a more expensive Save with more delay.

It's not so good also to exile junk, since you can exile only one copy of each.

430
Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: May 05, 2020, 09:39:39 am »
Recompense (Treasure, $5)

+$0

When you play this, gain a card costing up to $1 per differently named card you have on your Exile mat. If it’s a Victory card, trash this.
———
When you gain this, Exile a card from your hand.

A Horn of Plenty variant that cares about your Exile mat. As well as a gainer, it can be used to free cards from Exile, if you want that.

If this is the only card in kingdom related to exile mat, you have to gain four Recompenses before it works as a Workshop. Seems weak to me.

431
Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: May 04, 2020, 10:36:06 pm »
Cowherd by Carline
An ultimate tool for horse management. With a little help of deck control (like Scheme), your Horses will never run away. Sounds pretty strong, but just comparable with a Ferry on labs, so I think it's not extreme. Short List

Thank you for your comments. I'm happy to be in the short list in my first attempt to create a card. Congratulations to X-tra for the win and for such a beautiful set of cards.

432
Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: May 03, 2020, 09:04:23 pm »
I think there's no more time to change entry. Anyway, I'm posting my card again , now with image done in Shard of Honor Violet CLM generator.



Quote
Cowherd • $3 • Action
+1 Action
Gain a Horse
-
While this is in play, when you play a Horse, exile it.

The deadline is exactly 24 hours after warning or in the end of the day?

If you could, please consider this last image I send as the right one.

433
Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: May 03, 2020, 08:41:01 pm »
I think there's no more time to change entry. Anyway, I'm posting my card again , now with image done in Shard of Honor Violet CLM generator.



Quote
Cowherd • $3 • Action
+1 Action
Gain a Horse
-
While this is in play, when you play a Horse, exile it.

434
Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: May 03, 2020, 08:26:04 pm »
Sending again my entry with image, fixing word "ACTION"



Quote
Cowherd • $3 • Action
+1 Action
Gain a Horse
-
While this is in play, when you play a Horse, exile it.

This image could be better. Do you know where there are good templates and fonts to do these images?

Also, the word "horse" below the line should be with initial uppercase.

435
Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: May 03, 2020, 08:20:50 pm »
Sending again my entry with image, fixing word "ACTION"



Quote
Cowherd • $3 • Action
+1 Action
Gain a Horse
-
While this is in play, when you play a Horse, exile it.

This image could be better. Do you know where there are good templates and fonts to do these images?

436
Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: May 03, 2020, 08:17:30 pm »
Sending again my entry with image, fixing word "ACTION"



Quote
Cowherd • $3 • Action
+1 Action
Gain a Horse
-
While this is in play, when you play a Horse, exile it.

437
Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: May 03, 2020, 08:11:26 pm »
My same entry, now with image:



Quote
Cowherd • $3 • Action
+1 Action
Gain a Horse
-
While this is in play, when you play a Horse, exile it.


438
Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: May 03, 2020, 07:02:34 pm »
Quote
Cowboy • $3 • Action
+1 Action
Gain a Horse
-
While this is in play, when you play a Horse, exile it.

A better name is Cowherd, wich is the word for the same occupation in old english.

So, I'm changing my entry to change card name:

Quote
Cowherd • $3 • Action
+1 Action
Gain a Horse
-
While this is in play, when you play a Horse, exile it.

It can chain with horses: play a Cowherd, play any Horses, play another Cowherd, release all Horses from exile.

439
Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: May 03, 2020, 05:31:27 am »
quote author=[TP] Inferno link=topic=18987.msg836399#msg836399 date=1588497507]
Quote
Cowboy • $3 • Action - Reaction
+1 Action
Gain a Horse
-
While this is in play, when you play a Horse, exile it.
This doesn't need to be a Reaction. See Highway, Lighthouse, etc.

Yes, thank you!

So, I'm changing my entry to exclude reaction type:

Quote
Cowboy • $3 • Action
+1 Action
Gain a Horse
-
While this is in play, when you play a Horse, exile it.

440
Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: May 03, 2020, 03:59:08 am »
Quote
Cowboy • $3 • Action - Reaction
+1 Action
Gain a Horse
-
While this is in play, when you play a Horse, exile it.

441
Possibly neat, but how is this potentially uesful?

I had already stop from posting unuseful cards interactions in this thread, but I'd like to point why I did some.

To me, the topic title is ambiguous, it can mean "post here the cards interactions that are at the same time neat and potentially useful" (the right interpretation as I know now), but it can also mean "post here cards interactions that are neat and cards interactions that are potentially useful".

As I'm not a native english speaker, I don't know if I am right about this ambiguity.

(It's for the same reason, not being a native english speaker, that I do a lot of editions in my posts. Often I see later that I misspelled something)

442
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Infinite Loops List
« on: May 02, 2020, 09:23:17 pm »

I assume for all of these loops we put a few cards that let you trash down and draw your deck and stuff. Just imagine I played a giant village - smithy style engine to get there with topdeck/discard control; it solves the horn of plenty cards in play thing and can easily get you enough deck control to get that specific hand and deck.

Opponent's phase only depends on you being able to react with one of caravan guard, black cat, or sheepdog. Clean-up and night phase can be accomplished by gaining a card in either of those phases; e.g. vampire and hermit. You then react with sheepdog and do the same thing as in the donate one.

About opponent's phase, yes, but what I meant to say is that these reactions depend on what she does.

With Vampire you have an exchange, so you don't gain a card, but since you can do it with Changeling you're right about night phase. Also about clean-up.

However, none of these change the enablers list.

443
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Infinite Loops List
« on: May 02, 2020, 08:45:16 pm »

For the loop in Donate phase, you have also to trash something like Catacombs or Hunting Grounds to gain a card and react with Sheepdog. But how can you play a card with Vassal in Way of the Mouse if you still didn't shuffle your hand into your deck?


Now I see that the answer is in the question itself. You can gain a Throne Room trashing Catacombs. However, if the loops you can do are the same of action phase, the list of enablers is still the same.

444
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Infinite Loops List
« on: May 02, 2020, 05:09:51 pm »
I will note that it is possible to get infinite loops in every phase, including your opponent's phases and the between turns donate phase, due to reacting with sheepdog as way of the vassal hitting some throne room. From the throne room you can create some of the action phase loops described.

Here is a loop that uses none of the cards in the new list:

hand is crown, mandarin, your favorite treasure, horn of plenty, black market
deck is crown, mandarin, your favorite treasure, horn of plenty
play a black market
  play a crown
    play mandarin as way of the horse
    play mandarin as way of the horse
  play your favorite treasure
  play horn of plenty, gaining mandarin
  repeat

Yes, you're right, thank you! I thought there's no way to gain Mandarin and remove gainer from play without Capitalism, but Black Market does the opposite, allows to play a treasure type gainer in action phase. This invalidate my statement that you can't do the Mandarin trick without Capitalism, so we have to include Mandarin in the list.

In the loop you posted there are only four different named cards in play when you play Horn of Plenty, so you can't gain Mandarin, but I think it can be fixed (with Canal, for example). About this loop, however, I have a doubt: from your deck with a total of 9 cards, how you manage to control that exactly these 5 will be in your hand?

For the loop in Donate phase, you have also to trash something like Catacombs or Hunting Grounds to gain a card and react with Sheepdog. But how can you play a card with Vassal in Way of the Mouse if you still didn't shuffle your hand into your deck? (Edited: I found the answer. See post below)

I think a loop in your Opponent's phase depends on what she played, don't? So, to setup the initial conditions for loop is out of control. Anyway, I would like to know if there's a loop in opponent's phase that doesn't use any of the enablers of the new list.

Including Mandarin, the list of  essential cards for infinite loops is this:

- Villa
- Cavalry
- Scepter
- Capitalism
- Gamble
- Toil
- March (I'm not sure about this, since Gamble with Star Chart seems to me to be strictly better than it for loop purposes)
- King’s Court
- Mandarin
- Trader

I would be happy if you contradict me again and show another loop only with cards out of this list. Every time you do this I learn something.

I will note that it is possible to get infinite loops in every phase

Can you think in a loop in night or clean-up phases?


445
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Infinite Loops List
« on: May 01, 2020, 11:28:24 am »
I think it is more productive to list loops that use only one distinct card from our current short list of cards required for inifinite loops, since there are a lot of similar loops using the same card.

Trying to see by another angle the question about which cards are essential to infinite loops and so refine the list of them:

- When you restart the loop, all copies of all cards in the game must be again in the same place they were in the beginning of the loop.

- The game has to be in the same phase of the beggining of the loop when you restart the loop.

- In the restart of the loop you have to get back the resources (actions, buys, coins) you spent during the loop

- You can’t go back to the same situation in clean-up phase.

- There’s no way to remove cards from play and put them back where they were in night phase.

So, the loops can only occur:

- In both, action phase and buy phase
- Within buy phase only
- Within action phase only

If the loops occur in both action and buy phases you need Villa or Cavalry to go back to same situation.

If the loop occurs within buy phase you can’t go back to the same situation only buying things (you have to restore your buy power) or playing treasure type cards that don’t play actions (they can't remove cards from play and put them back where they were). You need actions to be played. So you need one or more of the cards that allow play actions in buy phase: Scepter, Capitalism, Gamble, Toil or March.

If the loop occurs within action phase, you need to be able to remove cards from play and put them back where they were in this phase only.

Cards when removed from play only can be recovered if they went to:

- Pile
- Trash or
- Deck, by gaining Mandarin

In all this cases, you need to gain a card from pile or trash to go back to initial position. In action phase you can’t do it by buying (Black Market doesn’t buy from supply piles).

So, you need a gainer. Gainers don’t remove themselves from play. So, you have to be able to remove cards from play, play a gainer and remove gainer from play, all in action phase.

There are only two known ways to do that:

- Gaining Mandarin with cube on Capitalism, so you will be able to topdeck the gainer.

- Playing two King’s Court and using the third slot of second King's Court to play a King’s Court again and restart the cycle. In meanwhile, you have six actions plays, four of them that don’t put a card in play, so you can remove and gain back both King's Court and the gainer.

All loops I saw that occur only in action phase use one of these two mechanisms.

Since you can’t do the Mandarin trick without Capitalism and Capitalism is an enabler also in buy phase, the real enablers in action phase are King’s Court and Capitalism.

Finally, we have the case of the only act you can do that changes nothing in the game (cards place, game phase and your amount of actions, buys and coins): react to a gain with a Trader when silver pile is out.

That said, you can’t do an infinite loop without one of these cards:

- Villa
- Cavalry
- Scepter
- Capitalism
- Gamble
- Toil
- March
- King’s Court
- Trader

446
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Infinite Loops List
« on: April 30, 2020, 11:38:00 pm »
KILN – MANDARIN LOOP

Setup
Way: Way of the Horse
Project: Capitalism (cube on it)
Event: Lost Arts (token on Kiln)
Empty deck and empty discard pile
Hand: Kiln, 2 Mandarins

Steps
1 – Play Kiln – gain an action – gain $2
2 – Play Mandarin as Way of the Horse – gain Mandarin – topdeck Mandarin and Kiln – draw both
3 – Play Mandarin as Way of the Horse – Mandarin returns to its pile – draw Mandarin
Repeat steps 1 to 3 indefinitely for infinite money

Roles
Allows repeat same act: Mandarin
Prevents from stop: Way of the Horse
Ensures payload: no payload needed
Ensures buys: in this case gains - Kiln
Ensures actions: Lost Arts
Produces surplus at each cycle: Kiln

447
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Infinite Loops List
« on: April 30, 2020, 05:33:13 pm »
MANDARIN – IRONWORKS LOOP

Setup
Way: Way of the Horse
Project: Capitalism (cube on it)
Empty deck and empty discard pile
Hand: Highway, Mandarin, Ironworks

Steps
1 – Play Highway
2 – Play Ironworks – gain Mandarin – gain an action and $1 - topdeck Ironworks
3 – Play Mandarin as Way of the Horse – Mandarin returns to pile – draw Ironworks and Mandarin
Repeat steps 2 and 3 indefinitely for infinite money
(with tokens on Ironworks or Mandarin it can also produces actions and buys)

Roles
Allows repeat same act: Mandarin
Prevents from stop: Way of the Horse
Ensures payload: Highway
Ensures buys: In this case gains - Ironworks
Ensures actions: Ironworks
Produces surplus at each cycle: Ironworks

448
I think this was pointed out in the other thread, but the following is an infinite loop:

cards used: Trader, Toil, Mint, Crown, Counterfeit, Treasurer, Capitalism

In your buy phase, play Crown-Counterfeit-Treasurer-Treasurer, to gain Crown, Counterfeit, Treasurer, Treasurer to your hand.
Buy Mint, trash Crown, Counterfeit. Reveal Trader to gain Silver (or nothing if pile is empty) instead.
Buy Toil. Repeat.

Counterfeit is only in there to provide +buy and could be replaced by Travelling Fair.

Thank you! After I posted the reduced list, I noticed that some cards are real infinite-loop enablers and shouldn't be removed from the list. In the case of this loop it's Toil. I will review the list, due to new acknowledges (at least, new to me).

449
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Infinite Loops List
« on: April 27, 2020, 11:47:07 pm »
Draw deck
Play 3 highway
loop:
Buy stonemason, overpay for two cavalry
Play 2 cavalry with +$1 token on it using way of the horse
Play stonemason with +Action token on it using way of the horse
Repeat loop

Generates infinite coins, buys, and actions. You can empty the piles and play them all the same turn.

This one was posted by Pubby:

CAVALRY - STONEMASON LOOP

Setup
Way: Way of the Horse
Events: Lost Arts, Training
Lost Arts +1 action token in Stonemason pile
Training +$1 token in Cavalry pile
(You can use a Teacher to place tokens, instead of Training and Lost Arts)
Empty deck and empty discard pile
Hand: 3 Highways

Steps
1 – Play the 3 Highways
2 – Buy Stonemason, overpay for two Cavalry – draw all three
3 – Play the two Cavalry as Way of the Horse (gain $2)
4 – Play Stonemason as Way of the Horse (gain 1 action)
Repeat steps 2 to 4 for infinite coins, actions and buys

Roles
Allows repeat same act: Cavalry
Prevents from stop: Way of the Horse
Ensures payload: Training
Ensures buys: Cavalry
Ensures actions: Way of the Horse
Produces surplus at each cycle: coins – Training; actions – Lost Arts; buys – Cavalry

450
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Infinite Loops List
« on: April 27, 2020, 09:13:02 pm »

It is still possible with just Way of the Horse, since it can in fact remove the throne itself. Consider the following position:

3x cost reduction from bridge/highway.
king's court is in play, and just played another king's court.
deck and discard are empty. hand contains only a single ironworks.

first play of kc: way of the horse, returning it
second play of kc: ironworks
 first play of ironworks: gain ironworks
 second play of ironworks: gain kc
 third play of ironworks: way of the horse, returning it and drawing ironworks and kc.
third play of kc: kc

end position is exactly identical to the start, except you have more +actions.

This one was posted by Mad4math in another thread:

KING’S COURT – WAY OF THE HORSE LOOP

Setup
Way: Way of the Horse
3 Highways or Bridges already played
Hand: 2 King’s Court, Ironworks
Empty deck and empty discard pile

Steps
1 – Play a King’s Court
2 – King’s a King’s Court
       3 – First play of King’s Court: Way of the Horse – card goes back to pile
       4 – Second play of King’s Court: King’s Ironworks
             5 – First play of Ironworks: gain a King’s Court (gain an action)
             6 – Second Play of Ironworks: gain an Ironworks (gain an action)
             7 – Third play of Ironworks: Way of the Horse – card goes back to pile –draw two cards
       8 – Third play of King’s Court - King’s a King’s Court
Repeat steps 3 to 8 indefinitely for infinite actions

Roles
Allows repeat same act: King’s Court
Prevents from stop: Way of the Horse
Ensures payload: Highway
Ensures buys: in this case, gains instead of buys - Ironworks
Ensures actions: King’s Court
Produces surplus at each cycle: Ironworks
 

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