Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.

1351

Rules Questions / Re: Band of Misfits as Reserve Cards

« on: October 06, 2018, 05:16:32 pm »

My understanding of the rules and rulings regarding BoM seem to confirm that this is the case as well. If you play it as Island, its removed from play and reverts back to being a BoM on the Island mat. Once BoM as Embargo is trashed, it's out of play and loses all of Embargo's abilities. It doesn't matter that this happens while you're still playing Embargo, BoM can't play abilities it doesn't have and has no access to.

In addition to what GendoIkari said, there seems to be a rule that when an ability is triggered, you resolve it in its entirety no matter what.

It's clear that BoM-as-Embargo reverts back to BoM after it's trashed, before you add an Embargo token. But there is no ruling saying that this has any impact on the ability that has already been triggered. There are just rulings saying that (1) if you play the card again, it's a BoM, and (2) an ability checking the card finds a BoM.

Thare are rulings (even in the rulebook) saying that when you trash a BoM-as-Fortress, the when-trash-ability of the Fortress is resolved, even though you actually resolve it when the Fortress is a BoM. So this supports the rule that you always resolve a triggered ability.

1352

Dominion: Renaissance Previews / Re: Renaissance Previews #4: Flag Bearer, Swashbuckler, Treasurer

« on: October 03, 2018, 03:09:06 pm »

It is certainly true that Artifacts reduce the inherent 1st-player advantage (like Noble Brigand and positive-interaction cards do). But that's not the same as having a 2nd player advantage.

I I'm pretty sure that saying that Flag Bearer has a 2nd player advantage, simply means that its presence is to the 2nd player's advantage (on average), not that it changes the game so that the 2nd player has a bigger advantage than the 1st.

1353

Rules Questions / Re: What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?

« on: October 03, 2018, 03:02:59 pm »

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1701.msg27082#msg27082

1354

Rules Questions / Re: What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?

« on: October 02, 2018, 08:55:32 pm »

while gaining is different: you gain each card separately.

I've never seen that stated anywhere, actually.

(Specimen question: when you play Treasure Trove with Watchtower in hand, can you choose to top-deck both the Copper and Gold in either order?)

Yet I have seen it stated many times. Here's one.

1355

Rules Questions / Re: What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?

« on: October 02, 2018, 07:32:52 pm »

So maybe it helps to think about it this way: "When you trash a card..." is short for "When you trash any cards, for each trashed card..."

Thinking about it that way gives you a single trigger of Sewers during which multiple cards can be trashed (option 1), which is different from triggering Sewers multiple times (option 3).

You're right, that would not work.

It seems that you were closer with your explanation 1: you effectively stop handling triggers while you trash. We can perhaps view this as another way of phrasing the rule that "you trash all cards at once" (or as I said, "nothing can interrupt in the middle").

Dark Ages says: When two or more cards are trashed at the same time, first trash them all, then pick an order to resolve things that happen due to trashing them.

So we can rephrase it this way: When two or more cards are trashed at the same time, first trash them all without resolving any triggered abilities, then resolve all triggered abilities afterwards.

And discarding cards works the same way, while gaining is different: you gain each card separately.

1356

Rules Questions / Re: Order of gaining card vs. on gain effects

« on: October 01, 2018, 02:05:07 pm »

When resolving an on gain effect, is the gained card already on the discard pile, does the effect happen first, or is it simultaneous (i.e. I can choose the order)?

Example:
I buy Cursed Village. The next Hex is Locusts but my deck is empty so resolving it triggers a shuffle.
Do I put Cursed Village in my discard pile before or after I shuffle?

Before.
First you gain the card (which means putting it wherever it goes, usually your discard pile), then "when gain" happens. It's the same with effects like "when trash" and "when discard", etc.

1357

Rules Questions / Re: What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?

« on: October 01, 2018, 11:42:30 am »

This can matter. As a specimen question, you have Sewers and you use Steward to trash two Rats. Are you allowed to draw both cards before you trash anything via Sewers?

Don't be confused. The answer is there if you look for it. Infangthief detailed it very well and Donald replied.

1358

Rules Questions / Re: What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?

« on: October 01, 2018, 11:38:32 am »

Option 3 is maybe the most intuitive one, and is the one implied by Donald in his initial reply, but I cannot (yet) see how this can be compatible with the idea of Steward trashing both cards 'at once'.

The rule is that you trash all cards at once. Nothing can interrupt in the middle.
We assume that "when you trash a card" doesn't mean "when you trash exactly one card", because otherwise it would say that (compare with other cards).
So it has to trigger even when you trash more than one card.

Then the question is (and this questioned has been asked - probably by me - and answered before): Does it now trigger just once, or for each trashed card? The answer is "for each", which is also implied in the phrasing - "when you trash a card": For each card you trash, do this.

So maybe it helps to think about it this way: "When you trash a card..." is short for "When you trash any cards, for each trashed card..."

1359

Rules Questions / Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?

« on: October 01, 2018, 09:34:31 am »

It doesn't necessarily entail resolving its play ability. You're essentially asserting that when Enchantress is out, you don't actually play the first Action card you play in a turn. That's nonsense.

This is a super weird hill to die on. Nobody is hung up on this except you. I truly don't get why you think Action cards only count as having been played if you did exactly what was said on the card.

Where does all this hostility come from? Especially from people who are so confused about what they're railing against?

As it turns out, I have never asserted that. I have asserted the exact opposite from my very first post in this thread, and with more detailed examinations later: that you played the card whether you resolved its play ability or not. The part of the discussion you're replying to was purely about timing of "when you play" versus "after you finished playing".

I advise you to read more carefully.

1360

Rules Questions / Re: What do Sewers and Tomb do when you trash multiple cards?

« on: October 01, 2018, 02:03:19 am »

My real question is: how does that make sense?
I can think of two possible explanations:

1.
- "Trash 2 cards" means: Stop handling triggers. Trash a card. Trash a card. Resume handling triggers.
- "When you trash a card" is unambiguous.

2.
- "Trash 2 cards" means: Trash 2 cards (all at once).
- "When you trash a card" means: When you trash any number of cards, do this per card trashed.

What do you think? Is it one of those explanations? Or is there a better explanation?

I think you're pretty close on 2. The rulebook says that you trash all cards at once, then resolve any triggered things. It's in Dark Ages at least, I can't check it now, but you can look it up.

1361

Rules Questions / Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?

« on: September 30, 2018, 11:13:25 pm »

What you're saying is fine for English in general. The problem is that in this context "when" already means "after", so as far as I can see it's not relevant.

I don't follow.

Ok. In Dominion and most similar games, "when" means "after". "When you gain" means after you're done gaining, and gaining entails moving the card. "When you buy" happens after buying, which entails non-physical act of updating Buys, Coins and potions, and taking Debt tokens. Playing entails announcing a card, putting it in play and resolving its play ability. You're not done until you've reached the end of that list. Saying that "when/after you play" happens after the second thing on that list is completely arbitrary.

1362

Rules Questions / Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?

« on: September 30, 2018, 10:45:26 pm »

What you're saying is fine for English in general. The problem is that in this context "when" already means "after", so as far as I can see it's not relevant.

1363

Rules Questions / Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?

« on: September 30, 2018, 08:43:29 pm »

Royal Carriage says, after you're done dealing with having played an Action card, not meaning you're done with stuff like calling Royal Carriage ha ha, you get a chance to call this and well you know, what Royal Carriage does. I mean Royal Carriage isn't necessary here, it's exactly the same for Coin of the Realm.

Maybe someone is thinking, but Enchantress changed what the card did so the card never did it so Royal Carriage can't be called. No. That's not what happens. Royal Carriage doesn't say "At the point at which you'd be done following those instructions if only you'd followed those instructions" or "after you follow the instructions or do some other crazy thing like Enchantress," but that's okay, that game is unplayable.

Thanks for replying. So I think you're saying that RC doesn't care whether you followed the instructions or not, is that right? What mattered is that you actually played the card, not what happened when you were resolving it, correct?

So you can call RC after you're done dealing with having played the card. That's when you're normally done following the instructions. (Playing = announcing, putting in play, resolving.)

"In-between Action plays" is a hard-to-phrase concept. I was not happy with the phrasing on Royal Carriage, changed it for the new printings, and still it seems like it could be better. I am not putting in the work here today but note that Citadel has a similar timing and yet a much different phrasing.

Yeah, concluding that Citadel has the same timing was exactly what made me revisit this.

1364

Rules Questions / Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?

« on: September 30, 2018, 07:39:03 pm »

(And, indeed, one could even make a case that "after you finish gaining" would mean after all when-gain instructions have been carried out, i.e., not the same as "when you gain".)

Uhm. Since "when you gain" is the same as "after you gain", I guess you're saying that the word "finish" makes a difference? So when you have gained a card, it's after you gained it, but you're still not finished gaining it? You're at a point when it's after you did something but you're still not finished doing it. I think you'll agree that it doesn't make much sense.

1365

Rules Questions / Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?

« on: September 30, 2018, 07:32:45 pm »

All the times that treasures say "when you play this" are not "when-play" triggers. Kind of like how old Nomad Camp said "when you gain", but it was just imprecise language, not a when-gain trigger.

And of course this is another thing I dealt with in the much longer treatise I wrote about this, that I decided not to post. And I still won't, because nobody would read it, just like I think almost nobody actually read carefully my three longer posts; they just skimmed them. That's why we get semi-nonsensical answers.

Enchantress doesn't say anything about not resolving the card.

According to how I see it, "following its instructions" = "resolving it". That's the very definition of resolving.
What do you think is the difference?

As I see it, the usual way that you resolve a card is to follow its instructions. Enchantress gives you a new way to resolve it.

I see this the same as how similar things work in Magic. The usual way to deal with a player taking damage is for them to lose life. But when a source has Infect, then instead of losing life, they take poison counters.

The usual way to deal with the instruction to resolve something is to follow its instructions. But if Enchantress was played, then instead of following its instructions, you follow these new instructions instead. The steps you take to resolve it have changed.

Well, thanks for actually adding something to the discussion. I see how it's possible to view it that way, but I think it creates another layer of abstraction that seems a bit unnecessary: Resolving a card is not the same as following its instructions, but involves that as its only constituent part. It seems a lot simpler and cleaner to say that they are the same thing.

But as I said, it could be that you're right, that my original notion of Enchantress is what's wrong. It seemed like Donald was supporting the idea that it was Royal Carriage, but it's hard to tell.

1366

Rules Questions / Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?

« on: September 30, 2018, 05:31:23 pm »

"Directly after you finish playing" is identical to "when you play".

Of course it's not!

If you're even confused about that, no wonder nothing else is making any sense to you.

As literally read (as you like to do) it is identical. (If you don't agree, address my comparison to gaining.) But as I said, let's leave it aside. It was just to explain what I meant with "trigger on playing". I rephrased it anyway.

The next paragraph I wrote, the one you haven't replied to, was addressing your point.

1367

Rules Questions / Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?

« on: September 30, 2018, 05:09:54 pm »

Well, that's not what you wrote before. You specified that the reason RC works, is that it triggers on playing, not resolving. And that's what Donald supported.

It does not trigger on playing, and I did not write that it triggers on playing:

Royal Carriage: "Directly after you finish playing an Action card..." you did finish playing the action card, so you can trigger Royal Carriage.

"Directly after you finish playing" is identical to "when you play". (Compare "directly after you finish gaining" and "when you gain".) This is more complicated, but I was trying not to make a huge post with all the subtleties. This is what I get. Let's leave that aside.

The point is that you wrote that RC triggers as a result of playing, not as a result of resolving. You wrote, "So they do play the Action card". Importantly, you did not write, "So they do resolve the Action card".

1368

Rules Questions / Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?

« on: September 30, 2018, 04:16:09 pm »

Enchantress doesn't say anything about not resolving the card.

According to how I see it, "following its instructions" = "resolving it". That's the very definition of resolving.
What do you think is the difference?

1369

Rules Questions / Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?

« on: September 30, 2018, 04:10:03 pm »

Enchantress triggers right as you're about to resolve the card, and then it makes you do something else instead of resolving it.

No, you still resolve it. Enchantress changes how you resolve it: you "get +1 Card and +1 Action instead of following its instructions"

Well, that's not what you wrote before. You specified that the reason RC works, is that it triggers on playing, not resolving. And that's what Donald supported.

There's really no way of communicating about this stuff without being extremely precise. I'm realizing that your first post pretty much added nothing, since, just like you wrote in it, you just repeated what the cards say without giving any clarifications of what you meant with those phrases. For instance, the phrase playing a card, in this context, can be interpreted in several ways.

As to why I think you don't resolve the Enchanted card: As I said, compare with Ironworks/Trader. How do you explain a difference between these two interactions?

1370

Rules Questions / Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?

« on: September 30, 2018, 03:34:05 pm »

I wrote a much longer threatise on this, but I'll spare you and stick to a shortened version:

1E Royal Carriage: directly after resolving an Action
2E Royal Carriage: directly after you finish playing an Action

Ingix asks why the Enchanted card was not resolved. According to Donald (in another thread), Enchantress triggers right as you're about to resolve the card, and then it makes you do something else instead of resolving it. The other thing (+1 Card and +1 Action) is not the Enchanted card's play ability; compare with Ironworks/Trader. Also, Donald seems to be supporting that interpretation here. So let's go with that for now.

So then we need to interpret RC as triggering on playing a card whether you resolve it or not, but still triggering after you would have resolved it. This is somewhat clearer in RC 2E, but since it's pretty safe to assume that RC was not intended to be functionally changed in the 2E, we still need to interpret "directly after resolving" as not triggering on resolving (which is pretty far away from "reading exactly what the cards say" by the way, although everybody loves easy answers). If it triggered on resolving, it would not work; compare with Trader/Watchtower.

In any case, the answer seems to be what I already said: RC really triggers when/after you play a card, where play means announce, put in play and resolve, but not necessarily any of those if they are cancelled. (Of course we already knew that it counts as "playing" even when you can't put the card in play.)

1371

Rules Questions / Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?

« on: September 30, 2018, 03:26:25 pm »

Royal Carriage: Maybe the timing is not "after you resolve the play ability", but "after you finish playing", just like the card says.

This is a super weird sentence. It boils down to "maybe the card does what it actually says it does, and not some other thing that's different than what it says it does." Why is this different than saying "Maybe Throne Room doesn't actually double the effect of playing a card, but rather causes you to play the card twice, just like the card says."

Because I was not being very accurate and assuming that I would be understood from the context. (Clearly not.) I was going by the idea that RC triggers on resolving a card, like the 1E card says and the rulebook still says, but then saying that maybe it instead triggers on playing a card - but not the when-play trigger on 1E Reactions (which is the same as but phrased differently than 2E Reactions), which is before you resolve, but rather after you resolve, whether you resolve or not. I'm writing another post to make this clearer.

1372

Dominion: Renaissance Previews / Re: Renaissance Previews #5: Fair, Silos, Citadel, Star Chart, Sewers, Innovation

« on: September 29, 2018, 02:44:47 pm »

I get that's what it's supposed to be, but wording doesn't make sense.

How does it not make sense? You discard the Coppers, revealed. And then you draw that many cards.

You discard the coppers, revealed? But no coppers were revealed. There's nothing that says to reveal your hand. The syntax is messed up. How does that make sense?

"Revealed" means "also, reveal those coppers, so that we know they are coppers. By the way sorry for saying this so tersely but there's only so much room on the cards and if it had ever confused anyone in playtesting man I would have changed it."

Was “reveal and discard” considered? It should be basically the same character count.

But where are they revealed from? Often things are revealed from the top of your deck, or somewhere else.

Shepherd says "revealing them" instead of "revealed". A few more characters, but it's not like text size hasn't been slightly reduced on cards before.

1373

Dominion: Renaissance Previews / Re: Teaser

« on: September 29, 2018, 02:38:12 pm »

What I'd really like is a term encompassing Events, Landmarks, and Projects, since they share a selection process.

Donald has used "sideways cards" and "landscape-style cards".

1374

Dominion: Renaissance Previews / Re: Teaser

« on: September 29, 2018, 02:35:48 pm »

I've made the case before that the whole "card-shaped thing/object" is completely pointless. Call them cards; that's what they are.

This is all that matters:
(1) Buying an Event is not buying a card. (You don't buy the Event card, you buy the effect - or Event.)

All the following is a result of (1):

(2) The price on the Event card is not for buying the card.

(3) "When you buy a card" can't refer to Events.

(4) Cost-reducers can't reduce the cost of Events.

It's still not wrong to talk about Event cards as "Events", just like we talk about Action cards as "Actions".

Event cards are called Event cards in the rulebook. "Event cards" are also part of the setup rules.

When we talk about Kingdom cards, Events, Landmarks and other cards that are included in the game, we are talking about them as cards. So we mean Event cards (and Landmark cards etc). These cards can be shuffled and can be included in the game. Save is an Event card that can be included in a game, for instance if we draw that card from the shuffled pile of cards during setup. But when you buy Save, you buy the Event, not the Event card. When we talk about what's included in an expansion, it's pointless to talk about actual cards as "card-shaped objects".

1375

Rules Questions / Re: What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?

« on: September 29, 2018, 12:46:26 am »

Even without any clarifying notes, there's no problem here if you read exactly what the two cards say.

Enchantress: "the first time each other player plays an Action card on their turn, they get +1 Card and +1 Action instead of following its instructions." So they do play the Action card, but the effect of playing it is +1 Card, +1 Action. This doesn't change what the card says. When they finish doing +1 Card, +1 Action, they've finished playing the card.

Royal Carriage: "Directly after you finish playing an Action card..." you did finish playing the action card, so you can trigger Royal Carriage. When you replay the action, it still says what it usually says, so you get the normal effect of playing it.

I think you're just saying exactly what I concluded, but a bit more inaccurately.

If we follow literally what the card says, Enchantress would trigger on when-play, like Reactions and Urchin - unless you follow this complicated explanation of setting up a later ability on when-play. But that's beside the point anyway. The point is that you never resolve the Enchanted card, and you're not addressing that. But I assume we're in agreement on how Enchantress works: You play the Enchanted card, but you don't resolve it.

Actually, we can't follow Royal Carriage literally either (although I implied that we could in my last post). We know that "when you play" is "after you play". Reactions now say "first", which is code for "after you play but before you resolve". Royal Carriage's "directly after you finish playing" literally would mean the same as "after you play", which is before you resolve. Of course we know from the rulebook that it means after you resolve*. And so we're back to my question. But as I said, if we take the rulebook explanation as inaccurate and interpret "directly after you finish playing" as "after you finished playing and possibly resolving", then it works.

*And don't forget that the first edition said "directly after resolving an Action", which only had the problem of not specifying that it only applied to the play ability. With that version it would be harder to support the interpretation that we are both suggesting. And the new version was intended to make the card clearer, not functionally different.