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Messages - jonaskoelker

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101
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Surplus
« on: March 21, 2018, 04:10:36 pm »
While we're on the (off-?)topic of Werewolf and mass hexing, it occurs to me that if your early-game focus is trashing, getting at least 5xWerewolf and enough villages to draw your deck with Werewolf, you can effectively add attacks to your deck later by buying e.g. Patrol Smithy.

That is, if you have a multi-modal card with modes A and B that you have been using primarily for mode A, if you add another card which just does mode A (or a sufficiently equivalent substitute for it), you have effectively added a mode-B card to your deck.

Or rather, you have effectively added a multi-modal card which you can use for whichever mode you like. The interesting bit is not that you can get more A by adding A, but that you can get more B by adding A.

Adding Mill to a well-greened Minion stack seems like an example of this as well. Adding Remodel to a Governor stack seems similar.

102
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Empty the Supply in 1 Turn
« on: March 21, 2018, 03:44:35 pm »
[link to youtube video, game is in turn 425]
Qvist's patience is saintly and his video is awesome. Go upvote his post.

103
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Empty the Supply in 1 Turn
« on: March 21, 2018, 03:41:48 pm »
*Edit* I think jonaskoelker's post explains it.
I think so too—although it's not obvious how the loop works when you use Pixie as payload, as made evident by me correcting some guy named 'jonaskoelker' several times ;D

104
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Playing the new Guilds & Cornucopia!
« on: March 21, 2018, 01:17:03 am »
Now I need to update the wiki...

Contrary to popular belief, I [...] run the wiki all on my own.
:P

Seriously though, have a good time doing so. Your work on the wiki is greatly appreciated, and I think I speak for more than just myself when I say this.

105
A few comments on organization...

[...]

As for the analysis itself, my question is, why does every infinite loop involve either KC or Crown+Mandarin?  Or at least, I think every loop has that requirement, maybe I am unaware of the exceptions.

Thank you for your feedback. I think I'll write a version 2 soonish, in a new post, and prepend a "Changelog" section to my first post with a link to the updated version.

My article points at a condition that's necessary to satisfy in order to construct an infinite loop—that a particular way of proving it finite always failss—but this condition is certainly not sufficient.

The on-gain effect of Mandarin lets you take cards out of play, which demonstrates my proposed termination function to be invalid. However, that's not enough: to base an infinite loop around taking cards out of play with Mandarin, you most likely will have to take cards out of play infinitely often, meaning you'll have to gain a Mandarin infinitely often.  There are very few treasures which help you do that—I mean, they give you money which you can use to buy a Mandarin, but then you face the problem of putting the Mandarin back into the supply; Ambassador is the only help here, I think.

About the only treasure that can do it in your action phase is Crown—and then only if it's a throned/crowned/KC'd/procession'd Overlord played as a Crown, because you can play the Overlord as something else on the second and later plays.

That is, the use of Overlord and Crown is a clever hack that makes Mandarin effectively topdeck actions rather than just treasures. (I think Band of Misfits would be just as fine as Overlord, provided Crown costs less than BoM, which only Ferry enables, IINM.)

That is: loops with Mandarin involve not just Crown but also either Overlord or Band of Misfits, because the extra parts help get around the limitations of Mandarin.

Why is King's Court used in the other loops? In some hand-wavy sense, "because you get out more than what you put in". When you e.g. Throne Room a Warehouse, you spend two cards to get two times the effect of a Warehouse. It's a 2-for-2. If you KC a Warehouse, you spend two cards but get three times the effect of one card, a 3-for-2.

One loop I have discovered which uses Bonfire to take cards out of play uses KC'd Lurkers to gain cards back from the trash, but otherwise doesn't use KC. If I had a Grand Lurker, "+1 Action. Choose one: Trash two Action cards from the Supply, or gain two Action cards from the trash, I would not need a King's Court in that loop.

So in some sense, the use of KC is a happenstance—it's a consequence of the magnitude of certain other effects (at least in one instance) and not clearly a consequence of some general theory, the way the use of Mandarin or Bonfire is.

We could also consider the other loop I've found—repeatedly KC an Overlord as Mining Village (draw another Overlord; trash for money), Lurker (gain itself from trash), KC (to repeat this sequence). The payload here is Mining Village; if Mining Village said "you may gain an action from the trash" after its other text, you wouldn't need KC here.

Once again, while KC is in some sense fundamentally different from Throne Room in that it gives you 3-for-2 rather than n-for-n, this difference is only necessary due to somewhat incidental reasons

Aside: One thing I haven't emphasized enough in the article is that because the exceptions are rare, very often (i.e. in many random kingdoms) my proposed only-almost termination function is in fact a valid termination function. Knowing about this theory you detect the absence of infinite loops.

106
Dominion Articles / Re: Key card-based kingdom analysis
« on: March 19, 2018, 07:35:48 pm »
I also emphasized that it's not essential to have the same evaluations as I did, so I don't think that's going to happen.

Bwahaha! I think Harbinger, like Scavenger and Scheme, is a great support card for strategies where you have a few very strong cards which you want to play as often as possible—and for that reason should be rated higher*. Rebuild and Philosopher's Stone fit this description.

* But those strategies don't exist in base-only games; in base only, Harbinger is... meh, 1 is probably fine :)

107
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Dominion jokes/pick-up lines
« on: March 19, 2018, 06:58:14 pm »
Why did the expert dominion player buy a scout?

To cause a contradiction in terms :P

See also:


108
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: March 19, 2018, 06:54:49 pm »
Really Bad Card Idiom
Cost: $2

Top o'the mornin'.  If there's an elephant in the room, shake a leg.  If you would knock on wood, don't have a cow, but you may flip your lid if you're on your last straw.  Otherwise, don't sweat it.  If it's smooth sailing, +1 bee's knees and gain a Cat's Pajamas.

The effect of that card is so unclear it made me want to flip the table.

109
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Surplus
« on: March 19, 2018, 06:52:08 pm »
Sometimes surplus is an unavoidable consequence of the kingdom.

The consequence of this, which you almost explicated, is that having a surplus of some resource is not a proof that you misbuilt your deck—merely a suggestion. Your Worker's Village example is a great one. Reliably drawing a big deck with City Quarter might take enough CQs that you often overdraw.

Werewolf has the advantage that you can add one or two more than you need for drawing and get both the increased reliability and also an attack out of those you didn't need for draw. So that's a kind of not-actually-surplus that looks like a little like a surplus—or is it actually a surplus, just not a wasteful one? I was never good with definitions. ;)

To have enough Bustling Villages to kick off your turn, you might need so many that you end up with spare actions at the end, which is why Port is often preferable.

I think the generalized lesson might be: sometimes adding a card to your deck gives you multiple benefits. If you have a surplus of one (or more) of them, you should ask yourself whether the non-surplus—actualized—benefits are worth the (opportunity) cost.

110
[T]he base set already had a card that functioned almost identically [to Port], but it cost , and 2 buys instead of 1.

I would buy two Villages if it cost .

111
Preface

Math ahead! In this article I try to explain some mathematical concepts and how they relate to Dominion, in particular with respect to infinite loops.  With this mathematical toolkit you should be able to understand why infinite loops take the shape they do, and be better able to predict which cards do and do not enable new loops. The strategic relevance of the presented concepts in your day-to-day play is... unclear.  If this article belongs in some other (sub)forum, let Theory know.

Edit: If you are unfamiliar with the infinite loops, I wrote a survey of them in a post in this thread, based on trivialknot's suggestion. You may want to read this first.

I'm interested in feedback: could I organize it better, is it too mathy, have I expressed the math clearly enough, is there anything you think could be improved? Was it useful to you? Can you think of applications of this approach I haven't mentioned?

A theory of finite processes

If I sell all my Pokemon cards and don't buy any new ones, I will eventually have none left, i.e. this is a finite process.  The number of cards I own is an upper bound on how many more sales I have to make; observe that this number always decreases, but never below 0.

A set of numbers A is called well-ordered if, for any set non-empty set B which is a subset of A, there is an element of B which is smaller than all the others.  The natural numbers is an example of a well-ordered set. The set of integers is not: the set of negative numbers is non-empty, but there is no smallest negative number, since -1 > -2 > -3 > ... and so on, infinitely.

In a well-ordered set, there cannot be an infinite decrease sequence: the set of all numbers in the sequence is a non-empty set and by well-ordering must have a smallest element, let's say the nth in the sequence. But since the sequence is decreasing, the (n+1)th element is less than the nth, violating the assumption that the nth element was the smallest.

So, if we can map some process onto a decreasing sequence of natural numbers, or of elements of some other well-ordered set, we can conclude that the process cannot be infinite.

This works great in the case of selling pokemon cards: the number of cards I own is a decreasing sequence.  To apply this to Dominion, we will need something more than a single number.

If A and B are two well-ordered set, their cartesian product—the set of pairs (x, y) with x in A and y in B—is also a well-ordered set, if we use the lexicographic ordering; that is, we take (x1, y1) < (x2, y2) to be true iff either x1 < x2 or x1 = x2 and y1 < y2.  To see that A×B is well-ordered, note that since A is well-ordered, in any non-empty set {(x1, y1), (x2, y2), ...} there is some smallest x-value, x*.  Among the pairs {(x*, y_a), (x*, y_b), ...} there is some smallest y-value, y*.  The pair (x*, y*) is smaller than all the other pairs. To see this, take some other pair (x', y'). Either x* < x', and so (x*, y*) < (x', y') by the lexicographic ordering, or else x* = x' and y* < y'.

In particular, pairs of natural numbers form a well-ordered set.  If I repeatedly sell some Pokemon cards, sell some Magic cards and/or trade some of my Pokemon cards for some Magic cards, I will eventually have neither Pokemon nor Magic cards left.  The pair (p, m) always goes down whenever I complete a transaction, where p is the number of pokemon cards I own and p:Pokemon::m:Magic. Note that the number of Magic cards I own may increase, but only if p simultaneously decreases.  The (p, m) pairs form a decreasing sequence (p1, m1) > (p2, m2) > ..., so the process is finite. (It may help to observe that if p stays constant, m eventually decreases to 0, at which point p must decrease by at least 1—so p also eventually reaches 0.)

If we have three well-ordered sets, A, B and C, then B×C is well-ordered, and so is A×(B×C). In general, a cartesian product A1×(A2×(A3×...)) of any finite number of well-ordered sets is itself well-ordered. If I make a list of card games, e.g. Pokemon, Magic, Yu-Gi-Oh, etc., such that I will sell cards from any game, or exchange cards from games earlier in the list for cards from games later in the list (but not the other direction), eventually I get rid of all my cards.  So long as the number of cards from the first n-1 games remains constant, the number of cards from the last game must decrease to 0, so the number of cards from game n-2 must decrease by at least one; repeat this, and so eventualy the number of cards from n-3, n-4, ..., 1 must all decrease to 0.

For convenience, let's use (x1, x2, ..., xn) as a shorthand for (x1, (x2, (..., (x_(n-1), xn))).

Note that in the triple (p, m, y) where ...::y:YuGiOh, I can trade some Pokemon cards for Yu-Gi-Oh cards while keeping the number of Magic cards constant. In general, the tuple can contain numbers which either decrease or stay the same at each step of the process, provided the tuple-as-a-whole decrease.

The last theorem: if some sequence of tuples (x1, x2, ..., xn) > (y1, y2, ..., yn) > ... forms a decreasing sequence, you can append anything after the tuples, and you can prepend anything that never increases (but maybe sometimes doesn't decrease, i.e. stays the same for one or more steps) and the sequence will still be decreasing. Consider (x0, x1, ..., xn, x_(n+1), ..., xm) and (y0, y1, ..., yn, y_(n+1), ..., ym) with x0 >= y0. If x0 > y0, then (x0, ..., xm) > (y0, ..., ym). Otherwise, (x0, ..., xm) > (y0, ..., xm) iff (x1, ..., xm) > (y1, ..., ym) by definition of the lexicographic comparison. Repeat this argument for x1, x2, etc., until either we conclude that (x0, ..., xm) > (y0, ..., xm) or we get to xn and yn. By assumption, (x1, ..., xn) > (y1, ..., yn); given that xi=yi for i=1...n-1, it must be the case that xn > yn (by definition of the lexicographic comparison).

These decreasing sequences in well-ordered sets are sometimes called termination functions. (Or rather, the functions f that map from states of the process to some well-ordered set, such that f(x) > f(y) if state y can occur after state x, are called termination functions.)

Applications to Dominion

How does this relate to Dominion? Given that there are infinite loops in Dominion, it's impossible to prove that there aren't any. In particular, we can't use the above methodology to make such a proof. Or rather, if we do the proof will be incorrect.  That's what I will do.  The point of doing this is that it's instructive to try and fail: when trying to do so, you will think of the quantitative aspects of Dominion which but for a few exceptions are always decreasing. Knowing the almost-monotone subprocesses will make the exceptions stand out, and being aware of the currently known exceptions will help you fiddle with loops.

Throning a Warehouse sets up four effects to be resolved: draw 3, discard 3, draw 3, discard 3. I assume without proof that no matter what sequence of plays you make, the not-yet-resolved effects will eventually resolve, no matter how many reactions you play.  I think the rules are such that if you may reveal Moat, you may reveal it any number of times.  Given that almost all reactions can either do something a finite number of times or are idempotent and thus have trivial fixpoint/limit behavior, one could make some rules which forbid degenerate infinite plays, and under those rules my assumption would actually be true. But the way everyone actually plays (except maybe a few jerks who run out of willing opponents?), I think that it is true.

Of course, the number of not-yet-resolved effects is not a termination function on its own: it's 0 at the start of your action phase and goes to 4 if you Throne a Warehouse. But this requires you to put a card into play. So let's try that as a termination function: (number of cards not currently in play, number of yet unresolved effects).

Playing a reserve card puts it on your tavern mat rather than in play, so this doesn't decrease the termination function. Also, calling a reserve card puts it in play, which increases the termination function. To remedy this, let's try the following: (number of cards neither in play nor on your tavern mat, cards not in play, pending effects).  This works for both non-reserve actions, playing a reserve and calling a reserve.

This is the core termination function which "proves" that you can only play a finite number of actions each turn.  Except: if you play a self-trasher, such a Mining Village or Pixie, the number of cards not in play increases when you trash it, proving that it is in fact not a termination function. Likewise, if you gain a Mandarin or buy a Bonfire you can take cards out of play.

With Bonfire you face the challenge of having to get cards out of the trash, so we could use (cards not in the trash, not in play/tavern, not in play, pending effects) as a termination function, except (a) we already know that Bonfire violates this, and more importantly (b) the number of cards not in the trash can increase, if we play Lurker, Rogue or Graverobber.

Likewise, any quantitative feature of Dominion game states that (almost) always stay the same or decrease could be prepended.  The interesting ones I know are the following:
  • If we split the buy phase in two, the turn structure is (Action, Treasures, Purchase, Night, Clean-up); the number of steps to do is decreasing, but for Villa.  Note that Horn of Plenty can gain Villa during the treasures sub-phase.
  • Card only leave the supply, never enter it. Exceptions are Ambassador (it only returns cards on net in 2-player games), and a few self-returners such as Spoils, Madman and Wish.
  • Cards never leave the trash, except for Lurker, Rogue and Graverobber.
  • Cards never leave your opponents' decks, but for Masquerade, Thief, Noble Brigand and trashing attacks.
  • Buying a card except with Black Market on net costs you a buy, except for Forum
  • When you buy a card, a card leaves the supply, except if you have Trader and the Silvers are out.
  • When you turn a card in the trash face down with Necromancer, it isn't turned face up again until the turn ends or the card leaves the trash.
Note in particular that Necromancer isn't on any list of exceptions. When Nocturne came out, some people speculated that Necromancer might be useful for constructing infinite loops. I think it won't: to play some card an arbitrary number of times, you must already be able to take it out of the trash and put it back the same number of times; so Necromancer can perhaps feed off an already existing loop (and maybe improve their capabilities), but not create any new ones. To find new loops or evaluate whether a new card might enable a new loop, find some almost weakly decreasing quantity which the new card increases.

How loops relates to pins

I have skipped over the fact that the clean-up phase takes cards out of play. If you can set up a pin such that your opponent(s) can't do anything on their turn(s), or can only do things which won't prevent you from doing what you want, you can set up an infinite process which spans multiple turns and uses the clean-up step to take cards out of play.

For example, with the kingdom {Scrying Pool, Scheme, Miser, Monument, Pirate Ship, Minion, Rabble, Relic, Storyteller, King's Court}, you can use multiple KC'd Rabbles to make your opponents topdeck three blanks, then play Monument for 1 VP, play Relic with Storyteller then play Minion to make them discard their hand and draw a hand of 3 blanks. Miser, Scheme and Scrying Pool are there to ensure perfect reliability: use 5 Scrying Pools to draw your deck (which has no Copper in it thanks to Miser), play 5 Schemes, do the above, then topdeck 5 Scrying Pools for next turn.  Pirate Ship prevents your opponents' decks from growing too big for your Rabbles to topdeck three blanks.  All they can do is buy Copper or Curse so they can't end the game, as you need no more than 9 copies of any card and can probably make do with less. (But not in practice, most likely, since it takes too long to set up.)

The limits of this approach

This approach doesn't say much about what I call finite loops. There may be some set of k cards such that playing one of each in the right order will gain and draw one more copy of each plus a victory card of your choice.  Such a process is finite since it runs out of copies to gain (assuming you don't put any back), but by assumption it empties the Province or Colony pile into your deck, which is often a strong move.

Is there something special about Dominion? Could we also apply this type of analysis to e.g. M:tG? Yes and no. In M:tG, within the span of a single turn it's more common for permanents to tap than untap, for cards to leave than enter your deck and for cards to enter than leave your graveyard, but the exceptions to these are all very numerous; I attribute this in part to M:tG having many more cards and in part to a difference in design philosophy. What distinguishes Dominion is that the main almost-correct termination function is very restrictive and has very few exceptions, and the other almost-never-increasing quantities likewise have very few exceptions. You get more mileage out of this approach in Dominion than in e.g. M:tG.

Appendix: the example pin kingdom, in pictures



Edit: Actually, you might need to add Young Witch (with Scheme as the Bane) to make sure your opponents have enough junk in their deck; otherwise your Minion might make them discard some of their junk, and your Rabbles will fail to topdeck enough junk to lock them down.

112
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Win with an all-blue deck
« on: March 19, 2018, 05:59:57 pm »
Advanced mode: You cannot play cards; you can only use their reactions.

Given that your opponents never do anything, this might take an infinite arbitrary amount of time ;D

113
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Win with an all-blue deck
« on: March 19, 2018, 01:34:53 pm »
Variant 1: [ spoiler ] solution omitted [/ spoiler ]

Yep, that works. I think there's also a solution that doesn't use Tunnel.

Variant 3: Like variant 1, but Tunnel may not be in the game (neither in the kingdom, supply, black market deck, on a mat or up your sleeve).

114
Puzzles and Challenges / Win with an all-blue deck
« on: March 18, 2018, 05:21:42 pm »
Challenge: win the game using only blue cards.

Rules:
  • The kingdom should be full-random-possible (0-2 events/landmarks, only Colony if 1+ Prosperity pile, etc.)
  • You may only play cards if they have type Reaction
  • You may only gain cards if they have type Reaction*
  • When the game ends, all cards in your deck must have type Reaction
  • The game must end in a victory for you

* To be exact: check the contents of your deck whenever the implicit stack is empty, i.e. whenever you can't do (or are done doing) reactions and there are no still-unresolved effects. If the cards have been added between the present and most recent such point in time don't currently have type Reaction, you lose the challenge.

For example, if you buy a Cache, you lose the challenge after having gained two Coppers, but no earlier, and then only if one or more of the three cards are in your deck.

Variant 2:
  • The kingdom should be full-random-possible (0-2 events/landmarks, only Colony if 1+ Prosperity pile, etc.)
  • Apart from one exception of your choice, you may only play cards if they have type Reaction
  • When the game ends, all cards in your deck proper (not including mats, etc.) must have type Reaction
  • Colony must be in the kingdom, and at the end of the game all colonies must count towards your score (i.e. either be in your deck or on a mat, or set aside, or some such shenanigans)
  • At the end of the game, there must be at least one Hovel in your deck

Games are played against one opponent who does nothing. Solutions should work even with worst-case shuffle luck.

As of the time of writing, the blue cards are the following:





Code: [Select]
Moat, Secret Chamber, Diplomat, Watchtower, Horse Traders, Fool's Gold, Tunnel, Trader, Beggar, Market Square, Hovel, Caravan Guard, Faithful Hound
Note: in the first variant you're not allowed to play copper. I think naming 'copper' as the exception in variant 2 makes it unsolvable, but I don't have a proof.

This challenge is due to Adam Horton. He never fully spelled out a set of rules. Variant 2 is my pedantification of what he said informally, and the first puzzle is inspired by variant 2. I posted one of my solutions close to where he posted the challenge, so to avoid spoilers I will defer posting a link for a little while.

115
Dominion Articles / Re: What's stopping AI from mastering Dominion?
« on: March 18, 2018, 04:31:55 pm »
AlphaZero needs to be trained on a single board size at a time. The only way to get around that would be to calculate the theoretical biggest deck you could ever construct. Such a setup would probably include [...]

I posted a puzzle, Set up the longest sequence of known top-decked cards, which turned out to amount to the question "what's the largest number of cards there can be in the game?" once you have discovered how to topdeck all your cards.

Somewhere in the thread, I wrote a list of kingdom cards which add the largest number of cards to the game. Big winners are Black Market, Exorcist (+31) and Page/Peasant (+20). Many of the cards which add more than the baseline 10 can be shoved into the Black Market deck and still do their thing.

116
Dominion Articles / Re: What's stopping AI from mastering Dominion?
« on: March 18, 2018, 04:01:04 pm »
Pre-generating Kingdoms is inconvenient. I think casual players would think the wait time is unreasonable. [...] You can't even save yourself time on future calculations by storing a result in a database when you're done, because there are just too many possible starting positions in Dominion.

One obvious idea, if you have an computationally somewhat efficient client with some storage (so probably not a web browser), is that for the first 10 minutes after you create your account you can only play against humans, while your client is "training" an AI for a random kingdom.

After that, whenever you play a random kingdom, it pulls a kingdom with an AI out of storage, and generates a new kingdom-with-a-trained-AI while you play.

Then you would only incur a 10-minute wait if you wanted to throw out (or save-for-later) the generated kingdom and instead play a different one. You could mitigate this if you can plan one game ahead, and ask for the next random kingdom to be sampled from some different distribution than the one you pull out of storage.

If you only play some manageable number of kingdoms, e.g. full random, all single-set randoms, 5/5 two-set kingdoms across all expansion pairs (a la "recommended kingdoms"), and perhaps a short list of kingdoms of your own design—let's say 100-200 distributions of random kingdoms—it shouldn't be too onerous to keep that many pre-trained AIs around. At 10 minutes to train an AI, that's 33h 20m to train a full set of 2000 AIs, or the first four nights after you sign in. Until then, you'll have to make do with only full random.

Such a system is of course far from ideal, but if the reality is that you will lose the user if you compute while they're waiting, you should be creative about computing while they're not waiting.

117
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Dominion jokes/pick-up lines
« on: March 18, 2018, 02:11:32 pm »
Duke and Duchess?
They'd be husband and wife, not brother and sister.
Dominion is set in approximately medieval Europe. European nobility is not well-known for being excessively outbred...

118
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« on: January 29, 2018, 11:37:14 am »
It's my turn. I have a forced win from here.

Workshop a Silver. Draw it with 2xWorker's Village. Remodel Gold into Province, play 4xSilver, buy the last Province, win 25-21.

Here's a forced win:



119
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: January 29, 2018, 11:21:31 am »
5rd [...] 1nd

"Fifrd" and "Firnd"?

"Fird" and "Fircond"?

What even is my headsplode

120
Notice that vault's on-gain is actually super useful for your opponent in Cursed Village games. That could annoy you, and even harm you.

You mean on-play? There is no on-gain effect of Vault.

Maybe Accatitippi means the on-gain effect of Embassy? They're easy to mix up: they're both terminals for $5 which net you one card, they're only really good in BM and they both play nice with Tunnel—that is, they're pretty interchangeable.

121
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Tom Vasel Nocturne Review
« on: January 07, 2018, 05:07:26 pm »
Apparently our tastes differ. [...] "what even am I do?!?" [...] lots of fun.
You are saying you enjoy being thrown to the wolves, as much or more as there being just a little uncertainty? [...]
I think you might have read a little more into my words than I intended to put there, but only a little bit.

I like playing a game where I know some rules of thumb and understand why they're generally true—such as "trashing is good" and "drawing your entire deck is good" and "Chapel is better in engines than in big money" and "Port is often a better buy than Bustling Village" and "Mountebank is stronger than Fortune Teller".

I also like when my expectations are thrown out the window. I like it when there's no "there's one trasher, one village, one terminal draw, one +buy and an attack to slow a money player down—I'm building the engine; let's see, can I throw any of the other cards in for support?" and also not even a "there's Enchantress and City Quarter which is strong draw that I'm not used to mathing; there's only slow trashing in Sacrifice and there's alt-VP in Castles but that's a lot of green cards which will hurt my action density—gee, I wonder if it's better than the best money strategy?"

I like it when boards are just completely weird and nothing fits together and you have to glue something together that accomplishes something, but however you do it it's going to be weird and awkward and you'll always go "does this even make sense?"

But, and this is the thing I probably didn't convey all that well: I like that as a diversion. I like having a game that's somewhat reasonably well-understood most of the time and a completely crazy a handful of times every blue moon.

122
[I agree that part of what makes Embassy high-randomness is Embassy/BM being easy and good] [...] terminal draw overall is more random than other things.
Interesting. Do you mean terminal draw BM mirror games tend to be coinflips, or something more or less specific? Do you have an insight into why (as in 'by what mechanism')?
I wasn't saying anything about games being coinflips; obv. there's the usual, if we subtract out all skill [e.g. by formulaic play of Smithy/BM], what's left is luck, and that's not so interesting generally [...].

The mechanism that makes terminal draw more random is, you draw random cards. Sometimes you get to good numbers and sometimes not; sometimes you draw your other Smithy dead and sometimes not; sometimes you draw it with Village and sometimes not; sometimes it will trigger a shuffle at a poor time but your alternative is not great. It's lots of things.
Cool, thanks for your answer. One thing in your answer that distinguishes terminal from non-terminal draw is drawing actions dead; it would be interesting to do the math (later, 'cause I'm tired-ish now) and see if that makes non-terminal draw have lower variance than terminal draw.

The internet is a poor medium for carrying tone of voice. It was exaggeration for the purpose of levity and merriment, but in no way did I intend to mock it. On the contrary, I greatly appreciate rrenaud's work and think it's a very clever way of trying to answer a tricky question. I also think it's very interesting, and I have learned something from reading it.

When you say false things like calling actual data a mathematical proof [I think some other things you say are probably false too]
I assume it matters whether I'm being sincere or not. Like, if say "A man walks into a bar; [...]" but you know that [...] never actually happened, I guess you're not going to subtract from my credibility... ?
There's the message sent, and the message received. I only get to see the message I receive.
I'm with you so far: you don't get to read the things I don't write, such as e.g. the [joke] tags I added in later.

I imagined you were smiling, but still, you put down rrenaud's stuff by lauding it unrealistically. I don't know if you actually then went on to say false things; the point was how you modified my expectations by doing this.
I was indeed smiling; the ;) flavor of smile to be exact.

I think this is me being a total nitpick, but here goes:

If I had lauded rrenaud's stuff unrealistically by calling it something like "extremely convincing" but without implying the false claim that empirical data and mathematical proofs are the same thing, would you still adjust your expectations about the truth of what I would be about to say? I can see how it makes sense for you to think I'm a jerk, but not that I'm stupid—or ill-informed, muddle-headed, or whatever flavor of "has incorrect conceptions" you prefer.

... It sounds like maybe you're claiming something that would surprise me—but you've already half-surprised me once (but not in the way I conditionally expected), so maybe you'll do it again. And then I might learn something, again :)

123
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Trash all the things!!
« on: January 02, 2018, 09:01:16 pm »
Normal: Build my infinite loop with Bonfire.
I've seen Qvist's "how to empty the supply in 5 turns", which uses Travelling Fair and Donate, plus the following loop: Overlord as Crown five times, played as a self-trasher (he used Embargo, you proposed Raze), then Lurker gaining Mandarin (trashing it with Watchtower), Lurker gaining Overlord back, Watchtower drawing cards, <your card of choice here>.

I take it you mean this solution? How quickly can you do it if you remove either Travelling Fair or Donate to make room for Bonfire?

Hard: Pass her Copper, Cutpurse it, Pirate Ship it.
Does that change how quickly you can do it?

124
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Empty the Supply in 1 Turn
« on: January 02, 2018, 08:54:41 pm »
The setup plays 4xBridge. If Colony is not in the supply, the most expensive card is Province at $4.
This is wrong. The setup plays 7xBridge. Once with 3 Villas left, thrice with 2 Villas left and thrice with 1 Villa left.

Sneaking in more Bridge plays is thus not necessary.

play something crazy like 4xKC into 18xBr before resuming the loop, but even that only nets us 27 buys (from Bridge and Travelling Fair).

Playing more Bridge still saves us money, as you have astutely observed, but we already have enough.

By my count, your setup uses 5xLurker, which means we can sneak 15xLurker into the loop (with King's Court), which lets us gain 7xOverlord and trash the 8th. We already have 2 when we start the loop, so this gets all 10 Overlords out of the supply before entering the buy phase. Once everything else has been gained, the last play of a KC'd Overlord can be a Lurker, trashing King's Court, Pixie and Lurker. This way, you can empty the supply with a single Lurker being the only card you bought.

You can probably even end the loop by gaining the trashed Overlord instead of trashing Lurker; then KC/KC/Overlord/Overlord/Overlord as Lurker can gain some trashed cards; the last Overlord can trash and gain the last Lurker.

I'm a little tired atm, so my reading and counting skills are probably not the greatest, but I think you only trash Overgrown Estate and a Villa; so this means you can put the entire supply into your deck by only buying a single Lurker and leaving a single non-supply card in the trash.

I find this very neat and pleasing.

Once we have all the Will-o'-Wisps (~111 Pixie plays), we can use them to draw a big hand
Oh hey, 7xBridge makes them near-certain labs, that's a cute interaction.

I do puzzles on paper, you play them out. I suspect that makes me inclined to maximize elegance and nifty-ness, and you inclined to minimize the amount of clicking since you bear the costs of the solution. Today I learned [...].

125
Dominion General Discussion / Re: ambassador + groundskeeper
« on: January 02, 2018, 07:51:58 pm »
I wouldn't buy Estates with the strategy I mentioned (except on the last turn of the game). [...] I'd buy Provinces and more draw, as needed.

Man, sometimes reading is the hardest part of discussing things online:

With non-terminal draw, you can pick up some Gold and work on the Province pile.

Thanks for the reiteration :)

My understanding of the golden deck is to return 1-2 Estates (2 if the opponent sent you one) and buy and Estate every turn for 5 VP indefinitely.
I think my post calls the "indefinitely" part into question. Given that my post involved writing and not reading on my part, sure I couldn't have made any mistakes? ;)

Against your proposed strategy, where there is no terminal space for Skulk, I guess the deck really is golden though; and I should interpret "golden" as "golden (except in strategically irrelevant edge cases)" :D

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