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51

Dominion General Discussion / Re: * Plunder Previews #3: Loot *

« on: December 14, 2022, 05:48:13 pm »

Cool stuff so far. Sac of Loot definitely seems very strong here, as it is essentially a Treasure Trove that doesn't gain those pesky Coppers.

What really weirds me out is the choice of descriptions for Trait cards. Particularly that the name of the card is always used to refer to the pile (instead of something "this pile"). This in particular leads to a confusing card text for Cheap.

52

Dominion General Discussion / Re: * Plunder Previews #2: Durations & Traits *

« on: December 13, 2022, 12:42:04 pm »

Pretty cool to see a fan mechanic pretty much making it to official Dominion. And Donald X's designs are obviously much better than the stuff I could ever come up with.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20890.msg875201#msg875201

The Siren stuff is pretty nifty too.

There have been 2 very common rules questions in the discord
2. How/why can you dodge Siren's restriction?

it seems like most people aren't familiar enough with the stop moving / no visiting rules to understand tricks for dodging Siren's restriction. So here's my quick explanation:

(All of the following also applies to dodging Gatekeeper; it's just that uh no one buys that card)

There are 3 different categories of cards that are relevant for the no visiting rule:
1. gain a card directly to a location (Armory, Sculptor)
2. when you gain a card, move it (Siren, Travelling Fair)
3. gain a card. then move it (Replace, Summon)

(For more examples of cards within these categories, http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/No_Visiting_rule)

When you have multiple effects at the same time (i.e. category 2), you can order them. So if you buy a Siren, you can choose to topdeck it with Travelling Fair first. And then you resolve the Siren's effect, except that the Siren is no longer where it was gained to (your discard pile), so the Siren fails to trash itself.

Ooh nasty. Definitely falls into the "keep rules compact and encourage players to materialize every aspect of them" type of board game design, which is nifty.

53

Dominion General Discussion / Re: * Plunder Previews #1: Treasures & Events *

« on: December 12, 2022, 05:36:29 am »

Tools looks very busted with stuff like King's Court or City Quarter, or just about any 5 cost that you'd want as many copies of as possible. But I guess the testing team thinks otherwise. (or is the team doing too much now?)

Rest looks really cool though.

54

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions

« on: November 07, 2022, 06:00:51 pm »

I'm not sure if this has already been brought up, but Trail + Way of the Mouse Workshop is absolutely nuts. The first player that hits $4 can get all 10 trails. In many instances, this is instant win.

55

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Fan errata on pre-existing cards

« on: October 13, 2022, 05:13:02 pm »

They could also end with "any cards of theirs that moves anywhere aside from their hand, deck, discard or play area are set aside and put in their discard pile at the end of turn", although that interacts weirdly with Masquerade and Reserves, and could open another can of worms.

Possession aims to do that, but it still falls short of that aim despite many errara, mainly w.r.t. deck ordering and removing cards from the deck other than by trashing (including "return to supply" and passing with Masquerade). My suggested fix could literally be worded as "At the end of that turn, the possessed player's deck, discard pile, hand and everything else belonging to them are returned to the exact state at which they were before the extra turn, with the deck reshuffled."
So the "formerly possessed" player gets to play with the same hand they drew before the Possession turn, and any cards or tokens they lost during that turn are returned to them.

I don't see an obvious "future-proofing" problem with that; and anyway you could always make new errata should future mechanics make it necessary. It would also work with Masquerade; the passed card remains in the other player's deck despite also returning to the possessed player's deck - if there's no copy of that card left in the supply, the online server can just create a virtual extra copy of that card.
(For IRL play, I would just not allow Possession and Masquerade to be in the same kingdom, or forbid Masquerade from being played on Possession turns.)

After this turn, the player to your left takes an extra turn after this one, where any tokens acquired are aquifer by you, you see what they see, and make their choices for them. Any cards that would be removed from their ownership are set aside and discarded during cleanup, and all tokens are moved to the place at the start of the turn, all reserves called are returned to the tavern mat instead of being discarded, and all flippers are returned to it’s starting side.

Keywords:
Acquired: The act of gaining ownership over a card, token, or landscape, such as taking debt, taking a state, gaining a card, exiling a card from the supply, being passed a card from another player, or exchanging one card for another.
Flippers: anything that stores info by flipping, such as the journey token or Miserable/Twice Miserable.

As far as I am aware, this can only mess with order, play permanent durations with thrones or bad targets, put cards from deck onto their mats/remove from mats, and get rid of greed/? from hexes. Exiling/Islanding might be a problem, but it isn’t terribly wordy, includes only 2 new words, and takes care of most interactions, including minor ones like flipping the journey token face up (bad) or face down(good), and stops from flipping to twice miserable(cursed village is the only way barring WotM if I remember correctly.)

In offline play, I think it's preferable if you can go for an approach that doesn't mandate remembering the starting state, and flippers are also rather specific and non-problematic. I do like the approach for cards that leave the deck. I'd go for the following:

After this turn, the player to your left takes an extra turn after this one, where you see what they see, and make their choices for them. Any cards that they would gain are moved to your discard pile. Any cards that would cease to be theirs are set aside and moved to their discard pile at the start of clean-up. Directly before and after the turn, both players exchange their collectible tokens. At the start of clean-up, they put their deck onto their discard pile.

56

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Fan errata on pre-existing cards

« on: October 01, 2022, 11:18:38 am »

I think the Town Crier pile wasn't very well executed. As a replacement to the Town Crier pile, it'd be more interesting if we got the following Ally:



Town Crier itself would be a standalone pile consisting of 10 cards, that could be exclusively used as an extra pile for this card. Its price would be bumped up to $3.

57

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Fan errata on pre-existing cards

« on: October 01, 2022, 07:52:26 am »

Black Market
$3 - Action
+$2
You may buy an Event from the Black Market deck once this turn.  If you do, +1 Buy.
Setup: Make a Black Market deck out of 5 unused Events.  (You may look through the Black Market deck at any time.)

Note: If you play multiple Black Markets, you may buy the same Event multiple times (unless the Event is once per turn/game) and/or buy multiple different Events.

I've been using this for a while in my IRL games, since using Events makes setting up and putting away the game so much easier.  It also eliminates the randomness and asymmetry of Black Market (the two largest complaints).  The simplified wording (borrowed from Donald X) does remove playing Treasures in the Action phase, but there are other ways to do that now so we don't really need Black Market for that novelty.

Well, this is obviously just an idea for different card, rather than BM errata. It is interesting, for sure. Since the Plunder expansions uses Events, maybe we get to see something like that there.

Possession still has problems with exile, villagers/coffers, self debt, and VP tokens.

At the end of your turn, the player to your left takes an extra turn, during which you see what they see and make their choices for them, and any tokens they have are replaced by your token pools. Any cards that would be trashed, exiled, or returned to the supply are set aside and discarded at the end of turn. Cards exiled from the supply are instead returned at the end of turn. Any cards discarded from exile are exiled at the end of turn.

For online Dominion, the most elegant fix imo would be just to return the possessed player's deck, discard pile, hand, play area, tokens etc. to the exact state at which they were before the extra turn (except that the deck is re-randomized). So Possession stops being hurtful to the possessed player in any way, while keeping its "intended" functionality.

But for real-life play it would often be very tedious to reset the deck to its previous state.

This is actually something that Possession aims to do already, but it is just very hard to formulate this in a future proof way. I mean, Masquerade is also a thing. And I think returning to the pile is the thing that needs to be fixed most urgently, to make Way of the Horse not completely degenerate. (it is also a universal mechanic).

They could also end with "any cards of theirs that moves anywhere aside from their hand, deck, discard or play area are set aside and put in their discard pile at the end of turn", although that interacts weirdly with Masquerade and Reserves, and could open another can of worms.

58

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Fan errata on pre-existing cards

« on: September 20, 2022, 03:41:38 pm »

My ideal fix for throning Durations would be to completely overhaul the way Durations work by having them always leave play the turn you play them and then giving you tokens to track any lingering effects. Of course this would completely unbalance everything, but it would also get rid of any and all tracking issues forever, and greatly simplify the rules.

This is a cool idea. It'd obviously require each Duration pile to come with 10 tokens (which may not even be enough with TR variants and Command cards). An alternative is to have whole bunch of Duration tokens, that have a different color for each player. When a player plays a Duration, they will move a Duration token to the card's pile. I guess Seaside would've been the expansion to facilitate the tokens, and non-Seaside owners have to get tokens from other games (such as Ticket to Ride). This would indeed remove the need to mention non-Duration in pretty much any instance. But obviously, all Durations would have to be redesigned, except Highwayman.

Working on fan 3rd editions, mostly compiling fan cards I like.

I'd keep most of these except for Possession (I don't think it's fixable) and Inheritance. I miss old Inheritance too, but "yours" seems too tricky.

In general I'd use the Donald X way of "replacing" cards - creating a completely new card with some of the effects of the old one.

Other errata I'd make though, most of which I posted in the "revisions to published cards" thread:

Wishing Well. Sea Chart, Patrician, Vagrant, Magpie, Will-o-Wisp - Changed to be like Sorceress, so they interact with the top card of your deck, not the 2nd top. You reveal the card and put it into your hand, and if it meets the criteria, the reward is +1 card. (Herald and Ironmonger are left alone due to the clunkiness of the alternatives)
Patrol - Scout effect happens first, then the +3 Cards, so even playing just 1 Patrol is meaningful (arbitrarily reordering cards sucks)
Charlatan - You set aside a Curse for the rest of the game. If you did, gain a Copper. (so other cursers are still relevant when it's on the board)
Catacombs - No longer has "Choose one" in the words to remove a weird interaction with Elder
Procession - As posted earlier. You gain the card costing $1 more after Throning the card, but trash the card you thrones when you discard it from play. Works with Durations again.
Counterfeit - Still works with Durations, and trashing happens on discard
Crypt - Still works with Durations, setting aside happens on discard
Bonfire -  "During clean up this turn, you may trash up to 2 cards you discard from play"
Research - Uses tokens like Garrison instead of set aside cards
Courier - "If it isn't empty, discard the top card of your deck". I never liked the dynamic of shuffling your deck so you can discard a card from it so your card doesn't work as well.
Lich - You can't skip more than one turn - "+6 cards, +2 Actions, skip the turn after this one".
All Extra Turn cards - Now subject to the "extra turns rule", you can't take any more than one extra turn after your first. This simplifies the wording on a lot of cards. They all lose "if the previous turn wasn't yours", and Outpost loses the "one per turn".

Agreed with most of them, except:
Wishing Well: Disagee with this particular one. Without topdecking (which is still the vast majority of time), you make a guess based on what you want and what is still in the deck. This works better if you draw a card before making the guess.
Patrol In a green-free deck, this essentially becomes "Look at the top 4 cards. Put three of them into your hand and topdeck the other". Is that what you want? Not sure about it.
Procession This means procession no longer works with on-trash effects, one of DA's defining features. In addition, Donald X also said there should be nothing of interest happening during the Clean-up phase, except the start. This is also why Donate got errata. Also, what is your stance on my first suggestion? I'm curious!
Crypt I must see your final version on this before I can make a judgement on this. Sounds like it's going to be wordy and impractical. Better to just not allow cards that aren't going to be discarded from play this turn.

10. I don't like basing it off of ownership. I would say "during your turns, all Estates..." instead. With the new Donate errata, there is no more between-turns stuff happening either that might mess with that.

I actually suggested this one to Donald X in the 2019 errata thread, and he had a very valid reason not to go for this version. It would not work with inherited Moats and inherited Duplicates during the opponent's turn, which would be counter-intuitive.

59

Variants and Fan Cards / Fan errata on pre-existing cards

« on: September 18, 2022, 05:57:39 am »

In this thread, I wanna share my ideas for errata hat could've been part of the 2022 errata. You may consider me obsessed, and maybe I am, but hey, why not share it nonetheless.

1. Throning Durations

My only idea that doesn't involve a specific card. The rule change is as follows.

Replay tokens are introduced. Every time you play a card an extra time, put a Replay token onto the card. Throne Room (and all non-Duration variants) will always leave play at start of Clean-up.

From a balance standpoint, this change might be a little concerning, as KC+Caravan becomes much stronger, whereas the already strong KC+Wharf becomes borderline insufferable. Not to mention Throning Hireling or Prince becomes insanely good. But this change would eliminate pretty much all ongoing tracking issues that Throning currently has. It solves the Citadel issue. It solves Procession + Throne Room issue. It solves the Captain-throning a Duration issue. And so on. Plus it just creates much simplicity. I mean, isn't TR+TR+Duration still one of the most common rule questions?

On top of that, Replay tokens are purely secretary and it is completely up to the player how these are used. For instance, if you throne a Barge and only choose the next-turn effect once, you could forgo the replay token, making it look as if you only played Barge once.

2. Treasure Map


The card that is infamous for not having built-in accountability. Of course, this matters little in practice as you don't cheat period, and there is very little gained out of cheating on this, but it just feels strange that Donald X went for the extra mile with Throne Room and Moneylender, but not this one.

3. Messenger


The errata this got in 2022 makes this card rather clunky, as the effect doesn't work with Treasure gaining. And I also don't see why this shouldn't work with Workshops. If making this not work multiple times in a turn is the goal of the restriction, why not go for this route?

4. Black Market


What kinda bothers me about Black Market, is that the cards you gain out of Black Market don't have a pile. This makes the cards incompatible with Swap and Way of the Butterfly, and very strong with Way of the Horse. However, doesn't it make sense to have the Black Market deck itself as "its pile"? Here is an attempt to change that. After all, cards like Experiment and Encampment didn't get their rewording for nothing.

5. Masquerade


Masquerade, the Attack that isn't an Attack. It made sense in the original version, as there would be much unclarity on how it would work when Moat blocks it. However, after the 2016 errata, its text is one word away from having this case fully covered.

6. Circle of Witches


The original version was a little overfocussed on making Liaisons conditional Cursers, making the Ally incredibly clunky with Guildmaster. This version is wordier, as it also needed to take care of Import, but its interaction with cards that let you gain Favors over the course of the turn is much better (of course, forcing Actions to be in play can be annoying with the Treasure-Liaisons, but that condition is rather easy to meet).

7. Island Folk


Island Folk is easily the strongest Ally. What makes it so utterly ridiculous is the fact that you only need to gain 5 Favors over the course of 2 turns in order to activate it every time. With this change, you will have to gain the 5 favors in a singular turn for consistent activation. Of course, if the Island turn is exceptional, this can be frustrating, but c'est la vie.

8. Way of the Turtle


There are 3 Ways that pack the yet-to-be-solved problem of being able to create an invisible Duration effect in conjunction with Throne Room. With Way of the Turtle, this is rather easy to solve by making the effect trigger on discard (which won't happen with TR+Duration). For Horse and Butterfly, this could be solved by using the Acts mechanic (see http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20806.0)

9. Possession


The change I made is making cards not leave the deck when they are supposed to return to their pile.

It could be argued that Possession needs more errata. It could also be argued that the only way of fixing Possession is treating it like a Zelda CDi game (pretending it doesn't exist). But I think the ability to demolish an entire deck with Way of the Horse is still something that needs to be taking care of. With this change, Possession and Way of the Horse still interact very strongly, but no longer brokenly strong like it currently does.

10. Inheritance


"Inheritance no longer works this way! Get over it!"

The 2019 errata already brought some unwanted concessions, such as making the card desinteract with Reserves and Reactions, as well as becoming pretty insane with one-shots, especially Encampment. But Donald X has made some good efforts in regulating when a card can be played and when a card can leave play, making the issue of caring about the owner even less of an issue (although Throning inherited one-shots can now be even more confusing with the removal of the Loose Track rule). On the flipside, the post-errata effect now also makes the card work improperly with Recursion Durations. Inheriting types was also a huge plus of the old version.

This is ONLY about Inheritance. BoM and Overlord should absolutely NOT revert to their pre-errata versions.

What do you guys think?

60

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3

« on: July 18, 2022, 02:15:04 pm »

"When you discard this" is a reaction so that it works when the card could be otherwise hidden (if something else was discarded on top of it) as well as to remind players about it (same as with patron)

How does it help that it's blue if it's hidden?

Patron is presumably blue because it's easy to miss the below-the-line stuff when you're just revealing it. "When-gain" is not so easy to miss, because you would usually look more closely at a card you're gaining. But discarding and trashing seem pretty similar; both could involve several cards at once.

Another thing to consider is that on-gain effects are already depleted by the first time you have the card in hand, so the blue color would be misleading.

And with regards to trashing, well, trashing already mandates paying big attention to the card as you loose it. Discarding less so. Especially Tunnel as that is a Victory card. And on top of that, the trash effect only occurs once, while the discard effect could occur every shuffle.

But it is also just historically determined.

61

Dominion General Discussion / Re: An Opinion on the 3 New Revisions (Seaside, Prosperity, Hinterlands)

« on: July 14, 2022, 03:16:38 am »

I think the decision to include Reactions that allow the card to play itself, and card that let you play cards outside of their intended phase was kinda dubious. But most of them were pretty simple at that. I do think that including Clerk in Prosperity 2E wasn't the best decision.

Your assessment against the Reactions is rather dumb. Reactions have a different coloring to remind that they have an additional effect. Is Moat also suddenly too complicated?

62

Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest #157: Token of Appreciation

« on: July 11, 2022, 01:48:44 am »

Do Adventures-esque tokens like the +1 Card, +1 Action, etc. tokens qualify? If so:

This gets problematic with cards that eject themselves from play. I'd go for the wording "When you discard a non-Duration card of this pile from play that you didn't play at start of this turn, set it aside. If you do, play it at the start of next turn." Another solution is to let the added text be "Now and, if it doesn't leave play this turn, at start of your next turn"

63

Dominion General Discussion / Re: 2022 Additional Errata

« on: July 05, 2022, 02:28:49 am »

I am with you on this, somewhat.  For Counterfeit, I see nothing wrong with the playing of a Duration multiple times extending to the final resolution of the longest lasting Duration play.  In that case, the Counterfeit itself stays in play, and trashes the card when the Duration effect ends. Think of it as a Throne Room (for Treasures) with added instructions to be done once the throning is completed. Rebuild could also work in this way.

Throne Rooms already work that way, and Counterfeit is indeed a Throne Room. The card text would have to be changed to specifically address Durations though, somehow saying that the trashing happens after any future effects. Sounds messy. The only alternative I can think of is "the next time you discard that Treasure from play, trash it." Not exactly better than the current fix.

You have missed my point.  Counterfeit reads "... you may play a Treasure from your hand twice.  If you do, trash that Treasure".  So what is it to play a card?  Is it putting it into play and resolving it for that turn?  Or is it fulfilling all of the instructions on the card (which requires multiple turns for Durations)? 

It appears that the first interpretation is being used for Durations, which means that a Treasure-Duration is to be trashed during the Buy phase of the turn that it is put into play.  The loss of the card before its Duration effect is done is what is causing problems.

What I am calling for is to change the interpretation of playing a Duration to saying that the playing of the Duration is not done until all of its instructions are completed.  No change to the wording of Counterfeit is needed in this case.  Instead, if you have used Counterfeit on an Astrolabe, you get $2 and +2 Buy now, $2 and +2 Buy at the start of the next turn, and then (as part of the start of the next turn) trash the Astrolabe.  (I would wait until the Buy phase of the following turn to do the actual trashing for tracking purposes.  This also leads me to wonder if a Treasure-Duration should read "now and at the start of the Buy phase of your next turn".)  As with Throne Room, the Counterfeit would stay in play to track the Duration being played twice and to also track the fact that the card is to be trashed once it has become fully played.

This change would also help with Procession (as it was originally worded).  The trashing of the Duration and the obtaining of a more valuable card would wait until the Duration was fully played.

There are several problems with this suggestion.

We resolve an ability by following each instruction in order from top to bottom. Some instructions tell us to do something later; these set up future effects. Your suggestion entails stopping after such an instruction and not continuing resolving the ability until all the future effects are resolved. Throne Room has two instructions: Play a an Action card from your hand, and play it again. (These are two separate effects that happen after each other.)

Let's take a non-Duration card, Merchant. If we Throne Room Merchant, we play it once, getting +1 Action and +1 Card, and setting up a future effect when Silver is played for the first time later. But that future effect hasn't happened yet, so we are not done playing Merchant. That means we don't continue to the next instruction on Throne Room yet. When we play a Silver, Merchant is done, so now we play it again, getting +1 Action and +1 Card, and failing to set up a future effect (since the first Silver has already been played). Obviously this is not how Merchant should work.

Maybe your idea was that this would be a special rule for Durations, but the problem is the same. If we Counterfeit Astrolabe, we only play Astrolabe once this turn, because we're not done playing it the first time until the start of our next turn. At that point, after getting +$1 and +1 Buy for the next-turn effect, we play it again, getting +$1 and +1 Buy and setting up an effect for next turn, making Counterfeit and Astrolabe stay in play one turn more. At the beginning of that turn, after getting the next-turn effect again, we trash the Astrolabe.

What if we play Conclave on Wharf? Since Wharf is not done being played until the beginning of next turn, that's when we get the +1 Action from Conclave. But Conclave doesn't even stay in play to remind us of this.

The idea that the Duration effects in the next turn are a "future effect" is interesting.  And that is the heart of the issue:  Whether the playing of a Duration from your hand ends in the current turn or a future turn.  I am proposing that a Duration be looked upon as a card that is resolved multiple times but is only played once.  Resolving a card after setting up a future effect that happens in that turn is fine.  But if Merchant gave the play-a-Silver bonus in the next turn, it would then be a Duration with an effect that would need to be resolved in the next turn (if only by being set up at the start of that turn).  Then my suggestion would kick in.

As for Conclave:  I believe that Conclave does stay in play if a Duration is played by it (as opposed to by the Action it gives).  That my suggestion would defer the awarding of the +1 action until a future turn is an interesting side effect.

I think you miss something import with actions in general. Effects can be decided into two categories: current effects and future effects. Current effects are effects you get immediately when playing the card. Future effects are effects that happen when a condition is fulfilled or when you enter a phase. When you are done playing a card, you have resolved the current effects, not (necessarily) the future ones.

From this regard, Durations aren't (nor should they be) different from ordinary cards. They just happen to have future effects that happen during a later turn. And the only difference they have is that they stay aside, because cards shouldn't be discarded from play before their future effects are resolved.

When you trash a card from play with Procession or Counterfeit, the current effects have been resolved (twice). Future effects haven't; and you need to remember the presence of those. 

64

Dominion General Discussion / Re: 2022 Additional Errata

« on: July 03, 2022, 06:22:42 am »

I am pretty sure the problem is with Donate, not Cargo Ship. Cards should be able to expect that nothing more of interest is happening in the turn once Clean-up hits. Duration cards by default demand this - they have to know if they're done. I guess we can argue, that the problem is Duration cards period; that they should have e.g. always stayed out one turn (with some cards then not getting made). But given that they get to care "are we done," and that the point we check is in Clean-up, well it shouldn't be that stuff can happen after that that makes a difference. Anything I'm willing to allow after discarding cards from play should also not be something that cards trigger off of.

For tracking, "non-duration" never actually goes the distance, since you can trash a Throne Room that played a Duration card. For loops, once-per-turn is obv. all you need, yes.

That makes a lot of sense. But if the Clean-up should be devoid of potential triggers, isn't Improve problematic as well (as they also "gain" something)? Or does Improve get a pass because it triggers at the start of Cleanup? In that case, what about the following Donate errata?

Donate (Event, 8D)
At the start of Clean-up, put your deck onto your discard pile. Then trash any number of cards from: your hand, you discard pile and cards you would discard from play.

And aren't Travelers under scrutiny as well? Or even Scheme/Herbalist/Way of the Frog?

About the last paragraph, has your team been thinking on whether this whole "TR stays aside to track Durations" stuff is still the way to go? I've been thinking about an other solution lately, namely to introduce Replay tokens. Every time you replay a card, you put a Replay token onto it. These tokens are purely for secretary purposes, and can be removed if one of the replays have no more unresolved effect (such as with Barge). TR itself will always be discarded from play on the turn it has been played.
This has some pitfalls, as these tokens have to be introduced somewhere and it also makes KC+Wharf even more ridiculous, but it eases up a lot of things. And it makes Citadel trackable.
Of course, your last paragraph would still apply because of Command cards that can mimic Durations.

Sorry if I'm suggesting a bit much lately; I just like to think about this kind of stuff. I'm still very impressed with how much you have done recently and I cannot wait to see what you have in store this fall!

65

Dominion General Discussion / Re: 2022 Additional Errata

« on: July 02, 2022, 04:52:44 am »

We looked at moving Donate to when-buy; just-before-drawing was better; and Cargo Ship vanished into the mists of the conversation. Possibly there is still a better wording that times it at when-buy. I'll have to go look at the discussions; for sure there were wordings timed then that were passed over for reasons of some sort.

Okay what we most strongly considered was: "Put your deck into your discard pile. Trash any number of cards from: your discard pile, your hand, and your Coppers in play."

This has issues! It needs once-per-turn or you can get loops with it. It's more functionally different, e.g. you can't trash a Cursed Gold you played (the cards aren't in your hand because then you e.g. buy Villa and just used Donate as draw).

The Cargo Ship thing is a real issue; I'm not just dismissing it. Donate lets anything in Dominion happen after discarding in Clean-up; of course that's problematic, why haven't I fixed that yet, man.

So this is the version to think about.

Donate: Event, 8D
Once per turn: Put your deck into your discard pile. Trash any number of cards from: your discard pile, your hand, and your Coppers in play.

I think I can speak on behalf of a sizeable portion of the userbase when I say that it's good that you didn't go for this change. And honestly, it seems like the problem lies with Cargo Ship, namely that events in the cleanup can change whether CS needs to be discarded from play. This can be changed by adding the words "before Cleanup" in Cargo Ship's wording. Sure, it looses interaction with Improve, which is of course not ideal as they are in the same set but not terrible either.

EDIT: I actually think this is a really interesting change, but I don't see why you couldn't say "non-Duration cards you have in play", especially with the once-per-turn clause (and even without the restriction, 8D would make it a lot harder to create a loop). Yeah, now I think of it, I really start digging for this proposed version.

66

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3

« on: July 01, 2022, 02:45:01 am »

Interesting. I’m going to use the word “acquire” to denote a card becoming your card (i.e. it is included in your deck at end of game, unless at some point it is “unacquired”).

Ways to acquire a card:
* Anytime you gain a card, in any way and for any reason.
* A card is passed or put into your hand (assuming it wasn’t already yours). Precedent: Masquerade, Fortress
* Anytime you Exile a card (assuming it wasn’t already yours).
* Anytime you set aside a card (assuming it wasn’t already your card). Precedent: Inheritance …
     * (unless the original instruction later moves the card somewhere else you don’t control(?), e.g. the Supply) Precedent: none?
* Anytime you play a card (assuming it wasn’t already yours). Precedent: Trail
—hypotheticals—
* A card is put or passed into a zone you control, e.g. deck, play area, Tavern mat (assuming it wasn’t already yours). Precedent: none, other than the scenarios already covered

That was fun. Did I miss any? I thought I could come up with more hypotheticals, but alas I am tired this week.

And I’ll leave it someone else for the unacquire list.

Your point regarding Play also isn't fully accurate. You should say "unless instructed to leave it somewhere". And actually, entering a zone you control covers everything.

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Dominion General Discussion / Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 2

« on: June 30, 2022, 07:03:04 am »

If only I could move the +Buy from Margrave onto Cache (and from Wharf onto Merchant Ship). But I can't.

Sorry if you've said this elsewhere, but why can't you do things like this? I was a little surprised not to see the Wharf/Merchant Ship change.

Well it's a line I've drawn myself; I'm not just making changes that meaningfully functionally change the cards. I'm fixing rules bugs and confusion; this can entail a meaningful change but the change is all about the fix. It's confusing to have two versions of a card; I've lived with that to reduce other confusion. I'm not doing it for card-balancing reasons.

Maybe make a small set of these as a promo.  Maybe called them Socialist Margrave or Socialist Wharf (since socialists don't believe in buying) and like Merchant ship market. As a promo people could either play the better version while not being confusing to the common player.

RSP needs to stay in the RSP forum. especially if you're gonna grossly misrepresent the Politics you're talking about.

Not only that, but it also introduces the problem of card A being strictly inferior to card B.

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Dominion General Discussion / Re: 2022 Additional Errata

« on: June 29, 2022, 02:35:14 pm »

Loops are basically megaturns. As long as these require skill rather than luck, it really shouldn't be too problematic. Stalemates are way more problematic in my opinion.

And I know this isn't gonna happen, and I may irreperably tarnish my reputation for saying this (and I may also be the wrong person), but... I really think Inheritance should go back to its pre-2019-errata form. One of the benefits of that form is also that the Estates inherit types, which makes it far more natural to determine whether it should be playable with Procession etc. And the development team has actually made good effort in reducing the amount of problems that come with that version (though there is still one bottleneck, namely with Throne Room variants). Meanwhile, the amount of "poor interactions" (such as with Conjurer) that the new version has keeps increasing.
(and this is solely about Inheritance, not about BoM/Overlord. These should definitely stick with the 2019 errata.)

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Dominion General Discussion / Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 2

« on: June 28, 2022, 05:29:10 pm »

Farmland. Please Farmland.

Wait, with the errata to on-gain, Farmland can be cool now. Don’t kill Farmland.

EDIT: WAIT - with Witch’s Hut, the set has a Curser, so Ill-Gotten Gains is going, I bet.

Yeah, I really hope Farmland gets "when you gain this other than with Farmland" rather than "when you gain this after buying it". It would make the card way more interesting.

Also, I wonder how many newer players just don't know about the blue dog thing?

This kind of restriction doesn't work when there is another card with similar on-gain property. I think it makes more sense to restrict this effect to the first Farmland gain in the Buy phase.

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Dominion General Discussion / Re: 2022 Additional Errata

« on: June 26, 2022, 05:18:19 am »

Feels like Defiled Shrine should have triggered on "when you gain a Curse you bought". The way it is now, you can get Defiled Shrine VP when being attacked by Black Cat, or from Cursed Gold, which is not ideal.

I think this change is fine and I wonder why it isn't "when you gain a Curse during your turn". Is it future proofing or is the interaction with Hideout too worrisome? And if you really want to restrict it to a Curse purchase, you can also make Defiled Shrine an Event.

That being said, the changes of all landmarks in the paragraph are kinda sloppy (though I guess they were sloppy in the first place). The Basilica one especially is just weird. I mean, you can now gain 4VP from a Paddock play. Or if you have played two Peddlers, any workshop variant will net you 2VP per play. That one IMO should be restricted to the Buy phase and ideally be "directly after spending a Buy, if you have $2 or more left, +2 VP".

Most changes are cool though. I'm especially happy with how they handled the Overpay mechanic.

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Dominion General Discussion / Re: 2022 Additional Errata

« on: June 25, 2022, 01:14:52 pm »

What's the purpose of the prince change to non-command? I don't see any loops that were possible with it

Because Princed BoM could call Duration cards. And it was possible to Prince Estates that were under the effect of Inheritance (even if the Inherited card was of the Duration type. This included Prince itself).

Speaking of Inheritance, I think Inheritance should not be restricted from inheriting anything, but the Estates should gain all types from the Inherited cards during your turns. Which means that if you inherit a Duration card, the Estates themselves are, in fact, Duration cards.

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Dominion General Discussion / Re: 2022 Additional Errata

« on: June 25, 2022, 12:28:57 pm »

What excites me the most about this is that on the 29th of june, Hinterlands 2E "has been completely previewed". This means that the previews start on june 27th!

Very glad about the Herbalist errata. Though this card would obviously be axed when the opportunity arrises.

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Weekly Design Contest / Re: Weekly Design Contest #155: Warlord's bane

« on: June 19, 2022, 08:45:39 am »

A lab variant! Like Stash, it has a differently colored back.

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Dominion General Discussion / Re: Prosperity 2E Preview 3

« on: June 14, 2022, 01:38:40 pm »

I think the development team just should work on a third ending condition, namely if there have been 10 or 20 rounds with no progress (which obviously needs to be concreted), the game ends (and the winner is determined as usual).

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Dominion General Discussion / Re: Prosperity 2E Preview 3

« on: June 11, 2022, 06:26:51 am »

I personally would suggest to reduce the price of Horse to $2 and to change Collection into "when you gain an Action card costing $3 or more, +1 VP" (or just restricting Collection to cards costing $4 or more). Another idea is to add a below-the-line clause to Horse that states "Gaining this cannot make you gain other cards or tokens", so that horses also aren't busted with Merchant Guild. But both of these ideas have their own ramifications, of course.

Poster below me is right. Live and let live.