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Messages - GendoIkari

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6151
Dominion: Adventures Previews / Re: Preview: Messenger
« on: April 02, 2015, 10:07:31 pm »
I guess with Trader, it's useful to think that it's preventing you from gaining something and then gaining something itself, rather than changing what you gain.

Absolutely. Trader only causes these confusions because it still ends up gaining a card. But it could also say something like "when you would gain a card, you may reveal this. If you do, trash a card from your hand instead." The card that you gain is not being replaced; the entire gain is.

6152
Dominion: Adventures Previews / Re: Preview: Messenger
« on: April 02, 2015, 10:05:07 pm »
So does that mean you could actually use that intentionally if for some reason you actually wanted to get both a Messenger and a Silver, without giving out the Silver to everyone else? "I buy Messenger, gaining a baloney sandwich. Oops, no, here's Trader, I'll take a Silver instead." And of course no one gains a baloney sandwich.

[Ninja'd more succinctly]

Yes.  You could even buy Messenger to gain Silver, then use Trader to replace that Silver with Silver.  Then nobody else gains a Silver but you do.  And I like Gherald's idea of also using Trader to replace the Messenger itself with Silver.  It still works because Messenger's thing is on-first-buy, not on-gain.  Then you just gain two Silver.



Does this mean that there's no way to reveal Trader for Cache to get three Silvers instead?

Correct. You'll have to live with 2 Silvers and a Cache.

6153
Dominion: Adventures Previews / Re: Preview: Messenger
« on: April 02, 2015, 10:02:25 pm »
yes, both messenger and ironworks hinge on what the meaning of "it" is. For ironworks, the ruling was that the "it" is the card ironworks tried to gain; since it wasn't gained, ironworks fizzles. Seems clear that "it" should mean the same thing on both cards.

The ruling was that "it" is the card ironworks DID gain, not the one it tried to gain. If it were the one it tried to gain, then you would still get the ironworks bonus with trader.

So are you saying if you mistakenly tried to Messenger a curse and then revealed Trader, everyone would get a Silver?
No, definitely not.
Quote
Or is the ruling with Ironworks/Trader (remind me) that Ironworks didn't gain that Silver, Trader did?
Yes, this. The original gain never happened; so messenger/ironworks never gained a card.

6154
Dominion: Adventures Previews / Re: Preview: Messenger
« on: April 02, 2015, 04:46:37 pm »
In other words, I think "it" is the card that Messenger gained, not tried to gain.

Exactly. Otherwise the ironworks trader interaction would be ruled differently.

6155
Dominion: Adventures Previews / Re: Preview: Messenger
« on: April 02, 2015, 04:45:10 pm »
yes, both messenger and ironworks hinge on what the meaning of "it" is. For ironworks, the ruling was that the "it" is the card ironworks tried to gain; since it wasn't gained, ironworks fizzles. Seems clear that "it" should mean the same thing on both cards.

The ruling was that "it" is the card ironworks DID gain, not the one it tried to gain. If it were the one it tried to gain, then you would still get the ironworks bonus with trader.

6156
Dominion: Adventures Previews / Re: Preview: Haunted Woods
« on: April 02, 2015, 02:51:34 pm »
Not sure if anyone's mentioned it, but it looks as if this has a pretty nasty combination with Possession.

"Oh, you didn't want a hand of all Copper?  TOO BAD"

Using it to put Copper on their deck probably isn't that smart. It means you didn't spend as much money as you could have to buy yourself a card. I don't think it makes Possession worse really. You leave them with a bad turn, so they buy nothing and Haunted Woods stops working.. that's what would have happened if you hadn't Possessed them anyway, just 1 turn sooner.

6157
My head asplode.

Trade  - a Remake that doesn't cost an action?
Mission is Outpost with more cards and a penalty - again that doesn't cost an action.

Expedition - a cheap ruined Wharf, doesn't cost an action

Not sure whether I prefer the originals. Having these as essentially nonterminals - but having to pay for every single use.. I'm too much of a newbie to determine if that repeat cost is worth it or not. Money isn't always abundant, and I'm thinking I'd mostly want to spend it on stuff that cycles in my deck permanently.

So how much of a real benefit ARE Events?

The fact that you pay for each use I think makes them so that you can't really compare it to existing cards. It doesn't cost an action, and it doesn't cost a card in your hand, but it does cost money and a buy.

6158
Man, this also opens up even more possibilities for "fan cards" as you only ever need to make one. Stuff like this can be tested IRL with 3x5 note cards on a whim.

You don't even need that. You just need to say "for this game, I'm going to say that you can spend x on an event that does y."

6159
If you do use a hard cap of 2 events, then with 235? kingdom cards and 20 events, the probabilities are:

0 Events - 42%
1 Event - 37%
2 Events - 21%

Recommended ways of choosing events be darned; I'm just putting all 20 in every game!

6160
Since 2 seems to be more of a suggested max than an actual rule, then there are 1,048,576 ways to have events in the game.

6161
Also, when you buy an Event card, does it physically move or anything?  Like a mat?  Or does it just stay there and you do what it says.  Is there only one of each Event?

The "card" is just a reminder that the event is available that game. The event itself is an abstract thing you buy and do; there's an unlimited number of them.

6162
Can you buy cards from the Black Market while on a Mission?

No.  You can't buy cards, even in the action phase.

Yeah, I thought not. So prohibition overrules permission?

Always.

In MTG; there's an explicit rule stating this. In Dominion, for the most part it hasn't been a real conflict, because there hasn't been a lot of things saying that you "can't" do things. The only one I can think of is Contraband, and that's never been paired with something else that says "you may buy this card".

6163
Dominion: Adventures Previews / Re: Preview: Transmogrify
« on: April 02, 2015, 09:00:09 am »
This card seems weak to me. Getting to do it whenever is nice flexibility, sure, but it's less than Remodel, and Remodel isn't great to start with. Sure, this isn't terminal, that helps a lot... I am sure there will be spots of this, like develop maybe (kind of; develop is more about getting you more cards and can also straight trash coppers), it can be a role player, but I think it will be pretty weak overall.

Getting the new card right into your hand seems like it would be a big deal though.  Did you miss that, or are you saying that it's still too situational?
Still too situational. Royal Seal not that much better than silver, and while this is a little better since you know what's in your hand - look, it's not like this will be AWFUL, but I still don't think it's actually strong.

What? Royal Seal topdecks; it doesn't gain in hand. It doesn't let you pick out what card you get to pick up the instant you need it.

Maybe. But you need a card in hand that you are willing to get rid of for that card which costs at most $1 less than it. And then you are spending the whole effect of this thing just to smooth you out, which seems pretty bad. Really bad, actually. I think you want to actually be turning cards you don't in general want to cards you in general do - the "I need it right now" seems like a nice little bonus, but really not enough to pull the weight of the card.

The Royal Seal comment is because one net benefit of "I get it right now" vs it going away is that you get to play the gained card this shuffle, which can often mean one more time. Royal Seal does the same thing, usually. The comparison isn't perfect, I grant you that.

At most $1 more than it, not less than it.

6164
Dominion: Adventures Previews / Re: Preview: Haunted Woods
« on: April 01, 2015, 09:31:07 pm »
Yes, Golem finding Black Market and a card-drawer or Throne Room-Herald finding Black Market and then a card-drawer were the edge cases I meant.

6165
Dominion: Adventures Previews / Re: Preview: Haunted Woods
« on: April 01, 2015, 08:52:18 pm »
Just to confirm, this basically prevents you from playing any more actions/treasures (edge-cases aside) after buying at the Black Market, correct?
Correct, once you buy your first card -- whether at the BM or elsewhere -- any remaining actions/treasures in your hand will kaput back to your deck.

With the usual double-Tactician edge cases applying. That is an interesting interaction that I hadn't thought of though. All those cool tricks that you can do with Black Market no longer work if your opponent plays Haunted Woods.

6166
For Treasury to be a Duration card, it would have to say this:

Quote
Treasury: Action - Duration, $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
Now and at the start of each of your turns until you buy a Victory card: +$1.

None of this "Discard this from play" shenanigans. Removing Duration cards from play does not stop them from doing their thing. They do things until they're done doing things, and then they get discarded at the end of that turn.

Yes. Clean, simple, actually uses the rules of duration cards.

6167
If you wanted to remake Treasury, here's what i'd do:

Treasury, $4, Treasure - Duration
Worth 1$ each turn this is in play.
(Only discard this from play at the end of your turn if you bought a Victory card).

I don't know Donald's opinion on this, but given the name and how similarly it behaves, i am pretty sure this is the basic concept of Treasury anyhow (at least i was sure enough to state it whenever the topic of Duration-Treasures appeared). But hey, i was also sure Altar was a pun on alter, and i've been dead wrong with that one.

This seems quite overpowered. I mean, it's better than Treasury in almost every way, plus it costs $4 instead of $5. The only way in which Treasury is strong is that the turn you play this, you get 1 less card.

Also, the wording is very awkward. First off, saying that it is "worth $1 each turn", while not too hard to figure out what the intent is, doesn't really work in Dominion rules. It doesn't matter what a Treasure is worth unless you play that Treasure. It needs to give you $1 to spend each turn. And then it needs to specify when you get that (at the start of your turn, at the start of your buy phase, etc). Because of Black Market and Storyteller. And then the discard condition is wonky. A parenthetical phrase is usually a reminder or an additional piece of information about something you need to do; not the main instruction of how the card should be discarded. There's no reason for it to be a Duration at all if it's just going to state on it that it doesn't get discarded as normal.

Also, how is it stronger than Treasury? Because it isn't vulnerable to attacks, maybe? I admit the price was an afterthought (because it doesn't draw cards), but i don't see how a replacement has to deal with "strictly better", at all. And by the way, i definitely think real Treasury is the better designed card, so i'm not really intending to find a replacement. I guess i kind of said that, though. Oops.


Mostly because it's a treasure instead of an action. That means it can't be drawn dead. Sure it also means that you can't use TR/KC, but as a general rule, treasure is stronger than non-terminal money. And because it isn't vulnerable to attacks. Of course this especially applies to Minion, but any discarding attack is harsher with Treasuries in hand. And if you have other reaction cards in your deck, Treasury being in your hand is bad when any attacks are played.

6168
Other Games / Re: How to play bingo games?
« on: April 01, 2015, 05:03:47 pm »
I have a bingo scorecard for when people trot out old jokes, or when certain posters post, just waiting for one more square to fill....

Is it              moat?

6169
Dominion: Adventures Previews / Re: Preview: Haunted Woods
« on: April 01, 2015, 05:02:50 pm »
It's obviously anti Duke and Silk Road.

6170
The second player advantage card is actually Scout... because if both players buy it on Turn 1, Player 1 has to have it for a longer time.

6171
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
At the start of each turn for the rest of the game, +$1.
(This stays in play)
-------------------------------------------
At the end of your turn, if you did not buy any cards this turn, you may discard this.

EDIT: This is not supposed to be Treasury.

What is it supposed to be? A super-strong Treasury variant? This seems like it would be interesting, but probably needs to be in the bad card ideas thread... I mean, once you've discarded it, you need to remember to track that it was played. It would lead to an interesting mechanic of trying to decide how many times to play it and not buy anything to discard it before you just start buying every turn.

6172
If you wanted to remake Treasury, here's what i'd do:

Treasury, $4, Treasure - Duration
Worth 1$ each turn this is in play.
(Only discard this from play at the end of your turn if you bought a Victory card).

I don't know Donald's opinion on this, but given the name and how similarly it behaves, i am pretty sure this is the basic concept of Treasury anyhow (at least i was sure enough to state it whenever the topic of Duration-Treasures appeared). But hey, i was also sure Altar was a pun on alter, and i've been dead wrong with that one.

This seems quite overpowered. I mean, it's better than Treasury in almost every way, plus it costs $4 instead of $5. The only way in which Treasury is strong is that the turn you play this, you get 1 less card.

Also, the wording is very awkward. First off, saying that it is "worth $1 each turn", while not too hard to figure out what the intent is, doesn't really work in Dominion rules. It doesn't matter what a Treasure is worth unless you play that Treasure. It needs to give you $1 to spend each turn. And then it needs to specify when you get that (at the start of your turn, at the start of your buy phase, etc). Because of Black Market and Storyteller. And then the discard condition is wonky. A parenthetical phrase is usually a reminder or an additional piece of information about something you need to do; not the main instruction of how the card should be discarded. There's no reason for it to be a Duration at all if it's just going to state on it that it doesn't get discarded as normal.

6173
Could Swamp Hag be the second player advantage card?

Player 1 plays Swamp Hag on turn 3.
Player 2 plays Swamp Hag on turn 3 - chooses to not buy anything because he doesn't want a Curse... so he wastes the 4 non-Swamp Hag cards from his hand.
Player 1's turn 4... he has 5 cards plus an extra $3. He's wasting a lot more if he doesn't buy to avoid the Curse.

6174
Swamp Hag does terrible things to Goons engines.

Not with Watchtower! (where's lio, by the way?)
Ugh, watchtower is too popular, everyone beat me to it :(

Yes, watchtower kills swamp hag, which is why swamp hag seems pretty weak in general.


I don't really get this (unless it was also part of the tiny-text joke). Moat kills Swamp Hag too. But the vast majority of times that Swamp Hag is on the board, Watchtower will not be. You can't really say a card is weaker just because another card exists, can you?

6175
Although I do wonder what Island would be like if it didn't get returned to your deck at the end. So like if it just trashed a card and itself when you played it. Of course, this version should probably have a different cost. Maybe it could cost a treasure that trashes itself when played also, to keep with the theme.

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