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Messages - JThorne

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26
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This is how you should always be thinking about University though, it isn't something unique to Highway that would warrant the "potentially harmful" badge.

Well, what's unique about University's relationship to Highway is that cost reduction is only useful for greening if you have plus buys or gainers. (And Bridge/Troll contain +buys!) If there's no +buy, Highway could still be worth it even with a gainer as boring as Workshop if you can play four Highways and then gain a Province/buy a Province. The fact that University ONLY gains actions does, specifically, nombo with Highway for that very reason.

On the flip side, Highway just by itself is often skippable if there's no +buys or gainers, because then you're paying $5 for a good Poacher.

In summary, University has some potential downsides that you have to factor in, and Highway has some potential downsides that you have to factor in, and they do absolutely nothing to mitigate each other's downsides!

27
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I was mainly disagreeing with JThorne saying that they almost belong in the "annoying and potentially harmful" thread, which obviously isn't true.

I'm not so sure. Here's the big question: If the kingdom has a good source of +buy, isn't is possible that Silver/Highway/+buy would get more Highways faster than investing in the potion and the University? There's a good chance that the early hands where you draw potion can't afford a Highway, and the early hands where you draw University will gain a Highway, but not buy one. If going the University route causes you to lose the Highway split, then it's definitely harmful.

But in any case, University + any spammable $5 cost, while sometimes useful, isn't exactly a "neat" interaction. It would be like posting Tunnel + Warehouse in this thread. That's not interesting, it's just what Tunnel does. Most of the stuff here is interactions that don't appear in the wiki and are usually one specific card with another specific card doing something interesting together that most players don't see on first glance.

I'm not trying to be a pain; I thought I knew how to play this game before I came to this forum, and the more I read, the more I re-think many of my initial assumptions, and the more I learn strategies, principles, interactions and techniques. Even the arguments are interesting.

28
Actually, I would go as far as to say Highway + University is NOT a helpful combination.

University is expensive and difficult to buy because of the potion cost. It ALREADY gains $5-cost cards, so the cost reduction given to you by Highway doesn't help you gain more Highways, so you're very likely going to be over-investing to get them, and neither card gives you the + buy so desperately needed when there's a cost-reducer in the kingdom. And University only gains actions, so you can't even use it to gain Provinces after playing three Highways!! (Could get a cheap Prince or Artisan or something, though.)

Highway/University is definitely not a thing. In a full-blown engine, with trashing, a good draw card, and a source of +buy, there is some possibility that you might play one or maybe two Universities in a megaturn engine featuring Highway, but the two cards don't interact in any meaningful way. If anything, they almost belong in the "annoying and potentially harmful" thread.

As a general rule, though, just make a mental note of [any cost reducer + any gainer] is usually a good thing. Not really an interesting card interaction; just how the game works.

29
Rules Questions / Trader + Changeling
« on: December 22, 2017, 05:15:43 pm »
Trader in hand. Buy anything, reveal Trader, gain a silver.

1. Choose to trigger Changeling. Give the Silver back, triggering a gain on Changeling.

2. Reveal Trader. Instead of gaining the Changeling, gain a Silver. Go back to step 1.

Isn't this an infinite loop? Couldn't you then buy Triumph for infinite points, because you DID gain infinite Silvers (If you are one of those guys, please substitute "arbitrarily large number" for "infinite".) There are probably other things you can do with it, but this seems like it needs errata, or perhaps I'm missing something.


30
Dominion General Discussion / Re: The Fool is a pity
« on: December 21, 2017, 04:53:10 pm »
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sparing use of powerful Night cards

And this is perhaps my favorite thing about Night cards, and about Nocturne in general (for example, the proliferation of Gold-gainers.)

They're non-spammable. You don't want too many, but used sparingly are very effective. Anything that increases the subtle complexity of deckbuilding decisions is a big plus in my book. Too many games are decided by who wins the X split. Nocturne makes that less of a problem. Overall, an excellent addition to full random.

31
On swinginess: Working hard and/or getting lucky to collide two Urchins puts a bomb into your deck. Working hard and/or getting lucky to spike $8 and subsequently collide Tournament/Province puts a bomb into your deck. Working hard and/or getting lucky enough to set off Magic Lamp puts THREE bombs into your deck. (Note the lower-case "b" in all cases.)

I wouldn't go as far as calling it dumb, but it's definitely swingy and hard to pull off predictably. I don't think minimizing the difficulty of activating it is an effective argument. It's just a card you have to factor into your decision making, try your best to activate it, and just accept that sometimes your opponent will get it first. It's not the first card like that, and it won't be the last. It's still a card game, after all. In the long run, the better players will still come out ahead.

For the humor value: I've played a few on-line games with experienced players relatively new to Nocturne who were repeatedly forgetting to even attempt to activate it. I kept seeing them play it, then play other treasures that would have set it off. The chat log kept being new two-word messages from me posting, "magic lamp!" (next turn) "Magic Lamp!!" (next turn) "MAGIC LAMP!!!!"

32
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Haunted Mirror, which is far weaker than I initially thought.

I've found myself skipping Ghost quite a bit. It only seems worth the effort if you only have power actions worth duplicating, which isn't always the case. I've watched players over-invest in getting a Ghost and then having it turn up...a Will-O'-Wisp...Or a Mandarin (way to Ghost Ship yourself! Enjoy your $6.)

I did kind of enjoy getting an early Ghost in a Swindler slog, though. Double-ouch.

33
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He got there by buying Werewolves, Secret Caves and Cursed Villages (draw to 6, discard duplicates, play some stuff, lather, rinse, repeat);

Wait a minute. You can't "repeat." As soon as you play your second Cursed Village (or second anything) you can't cash in the lamp. It's more like lather, rinse, get soap in your eyes, swear, try rinsing again.

The actual sequence is: Play your cursed Village, draw to 6, play Werewolf to draw three, hope you got lucky and now have four other uniques in hand, because if you don't, lamp's not happening this turn, and no amount of additional villages and werewolves can help you get there.

Having playable durations helps a great deal, though I'd hate to have to play Secret Cave in a kingdom without Cursed Village to improve it. A turn that starts Secret Cave, discard duplicates, Cursed Village, then Werewolf stands a good chance of lamping, but that does rely on getting those cards in a particular order.

34
Dominion General Discussion / Re: list your big nocturne secrets
« on: December 21, 2017, 10:49:08 am »
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Watchtower is still the better way to do it.

Because you don't have to use an action, or because its reaction is also useful? Tracker has its advantages: It gives $1 or $2 in economy, and it comes pre-packaged with the +buy.

35
Dominion General Discussion / Re: list your big nocturne secrets
« on: December 20, 2017, 05:31:46 pm »
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A well kept secret: Tracker is a lot better than you think.

This.

The ability to topdeck complementary cards, or even full-on combos, in a kingdom with extra gains/buys can be explosive; much more so than having to come up with a bunch of extra cash for Traveling Fairs.

36
Dominion General Discussion / Re: ambassador + groundskeeper
« on: December 20, 2017, 05:23:35 pm »
Couldn't the Golden Deck player, if they're ahead on points, gradually drain the Wishing Wells and Secret Caves without ruining their deck?

37
Dominion General Discussion / Re: The Fool is a pity
« on: December 20, 2017, 05:02:00 pm »
Additional note: Online, the message "[player name] plays a Fool" never gets old.

I almost always skip it. I love that Fool comes with a "lucky coin" that junks your deck with super-coppers. I love playing against opponents who play the coin every time they draw it and never trash it. (Also, props to Changeling. Again. For making Lucky Coin good.)

And while some Night cards aren't worth the extra mechanic (it probably wouldn't be worth creating the "Night" phase just for gain-to-hand durations) I really like the concept of cards that only work as night cards because they care about what you did on your turn, such as Monastery, Devil's Workshop, Changeling and Crypt. The others, well, would work just about as well as actions, making their "Night" designation often a drawback for the many, many cards that care about "Action" cards.

IRL players who plunk money down, grab their buys and clean up all in one fast scoop and complain that Night is slowing that down could probably benefit from slowing down their play anyway. Between durations, reserves, clean-up triggers, and just, plain looking at the cards in the play area for a second before scooping and making a mental picture of what's left in the deck, there's something to be said for playing deliberately. I rather like a night card at the end of a good turn. It's like a satisfying terminal punctuation mark at the end of a well-constructed sentence

38
Dominion General Discussion / Cost Increasers
« on: December 15, 2017, 11:32:51 am »
A question for Donald X: Has there ever been any thought of creating cost increasers?

I tried searching the forum for prior discussions but couldn't find anything. We have Bridge, Highway, Bridge Troll, Quarry and Peddler, all of which are cost reducers, but there are no cards that I can think of that cause cards to cost more (Summon, Ball and Seaway, arguably, but that's a stretch.)

A cost-increasing attack seems plausible, though on reflection, it could be more painfully crippling than any other attack, particularly if it stacked. The fact that even the -1 coin token can't stack, and that there's no attack that gives debt is probably a good indication that this is a non-starter.

39
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Semi-Interesting Dominion Moments Thread
« on: December 15, 2017, 11:21:32 am »
5-player game.

Ambassadored an Ill-Gotten Gains.

Some men just want to watch the world burn.

40
Dominion General Discussion / Re: list your big nocturne secrets
« on: December 12, 2017, 10:57:51 am »
Maybe it's not a big secret, but so far every single game that I've played where Changeling has appeared there has been some cute trick that you could do with it.

Silver gainers

Hard-to-purchase Alchemy cards

On-gain effects for cards you don't actually want (IGG FTW.)

Careful with Blessed village, though. If you get any of the gaining boons, they cover up the BV and the lose-track rule means you can't exchange it for a Changeling.

41
Dominion General Discussion / Re: How to Win Less...
« on: December 11, 2017, 12:36:18 pm »
Quote
But I think I prefer the "swap out two cards of their choice" strategy.
Does that have the same effect to you?

I've tried that once or twice.

When you do that, what cards do they tend to swap out? Do they swap out the power cards that you just murdered them with to try to prevent you from winning again, or do they plan to use those cards and swap out cards that they didn't buy or didn't like?

The problem I can already imagine is that when the two new random cards appear, either of them could be power cards that set off alarm bells in your head as an experienced player, changing the kingdom entirely.

In that game, for example, the new player might have swapped out Distant Lands, because it's fiddly and hard to play correctly and they didn't buy any in the first game. But even if we had played exactly the same kingdom again, and the new player had mirrored my first-game play, I would have tried something different like a money strategy with Artisan/Bridge Troll for gold-gaining, but with more aggressive trashing, possibly even trashing a Gold at some point for the big Forager upgrade.

42
Dominion General Discussion / Re: How to Win Less...
« on: December 11, 2017, 12:27:41 pm »
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Bridge Troll / Artisan / Forager / Bonfire

I think you missed a few, although maybe I just have a lax definition of broken...

I gave Bridge Troll a hard look, believe me. But I thought, well, there's no big draw, so you're not going to be able to draw and play huge numbers of them for a Province-piledriving megaturn. Artisan is expensive and terminal. Forager is a trash-one, and Bonfire only trashes coppers.

When I think of broken trashing, I think of game-warping speed like Chapel or Donate. I also think of game-warping cards that are so singularly powerful that everyone is going to immediately buy as many as they can, like Wharf.

By swiping away obvious power cards, though, I accidentally did the worst possible thing, and ended up with a kingdom that was really tricky to play.

That's why I'm rethinking my approach. Leave the power cards in, stomp the first game, play a second and let the trainee do the stomping.

43
Dominion General Discussion / Re: How to Win Less...
« on: December 11, 2017, 12:18:01 pm »
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You say they're a "relatively new player", so OK maybe it wasn't their very first game.

Yeah, you're quite right, but admittedly it wasn't their 50th game, either.

They've played maybe a half-dozen times so far. Again, like with the original poster, he's an experienced gamer, and we had already played several introductory games with base cards plus a splash of color.

I didn't even realize how many mechanics there were until I set it up. I just avoided painful cards like cursers, discard and trashing attacks, too-many-decision cards like Count, and overpowered cards.

Part of the problem is that I really enjoy showing the game to Magic players, because it scratches a lot of the same itches, but without the money treadmill. The huge variety and number of mechanics is part of the hook!

That said, even for Magic players, it's a learning curve.

I definitely try to read my audience, though. I wouldn't play that kingdom with most inexperienced players. The player in question definitely enjoyed the game and will keep playing, and he appreciated the strategy advice and notes about card interactions.

There's no substitute for playing a lot of games in order to get better at it. I'm still trying to figure out the best way to help new players after I've hooked them.

44
Dominion General Discussion / Re: How to Win Less...
« on: December 11, 2017, 11:39:58 am »
I just realized that another strategy in that kingdom would be a completely treasureless golden deck. Three Plazas, two Artisans, topdecking the one leftover Forager and one junk card, picking up two Distant Lands to hand and playing them. With only four non-Plazas, it's guaranteed golden. Now if that wouldn't have warped a new player's perception of good play, I don't know what would have.

Many, I think about this game too much. I gotta get back to work.

45
Dominion General Discussion / Re: How to Win Less...
« on: December 11, 2017, 10:54:42 am »
I may have to rethink my approach.

I just played a 3-player game with one relatively new player in which I randomized a kingdom with an app and then swiped away all of the broken cards or cards that required a lot of decision-making. No brutal attacks, and no big draw card that would make an engine too easy. I was basically left with a bunch of cards that are easy to play, but difficult to play well, and really no idea how I was going to do anything with it. I could see that a money strategy was going to be easy to pull off and probably win and I promised myself not to pursue it.

I described all of the various options in detail, pointed out the card interactions, the different roads to victory, the different ways the game could end. With the new player, we often told him literally how to play his cards to achieve different effects and what his choices were with a particular hand and the likely future consequences.

It had two or three terminals, including Bridge Troll and Artisan. The only splitter was the expensive but flexible Plaza. I pointed out that with a Bridge Troll on the table, Artisan can gain gold to hand, then topdeck a colliding terminal, which the new player used to great effect. We encouraged him to buy Forager early for thinning, then he spiked $5 early and bought the first and second Bridge Troll, Artisan, started Gold-gaining and got a big lead with three Provinces.

What was I doing? Well, being an experienced Dominion jerk, I guess. Once I got a good look at the kingdom and thought about it for a minute, a plan came together.

Open double-Forager. Silver for Economy, Forager and Bonfire to trash down to practically nothing. Bridge troll on first $5, get a second Bridge troll quickly, Forage the Silver to thin and make Forager better. Pick up an Artisan and sprinkle in a couple of Plazas. With gobs of buys and two Bridge Trolls in play routinely, piledrive Patricians and Vagrants while buying other good stuff, and with so many actions in play subsequently, buy discounted emporia by the handful for points and more economy. Buy Triumph a few times in the process for piles of points, trashing the Estates with Forager. Buy discounted distant lands by the handful, and/or gain them to hand with Artisan and play them immediately, or draw them (and leftover Triumph Estates) with Vagrants. After impossibly drawing deck twice in a kingdom with no draw, end the game with a flourish, piling out the last four $2 Plazas and a final Triumph, winning 30 to 18 to something. (Plaza/Vagrant/Patrician-Emporium. Didn't even get to the bottom of the Distant Lands pile.)

I really didn't think that was going to happen that fast or be that effective. I was just playing an engine out of pure reflex.

The inexperienced player (but experienced gamer) said, "Wow. That's a lot of moving parts. It's sure not Settlers of Catan!" Ok, so, mission accomplised, new player is impressed with the game's depth and complexity. Follows that with "I should have bought more Vagrants." What? No! It's a terrible card! It just happened to fit in precisely with my wonky Distant Lands strategy that kind of shouldn't have worked, and hey, free discounted stuff. The downside to doing weird, suboptimal things in order to give new players a fighting chance is that they then overvalue cards that you've bought and played optimally.

There's another way to play which I've used in the past, and I think it might be the best way to teach, but I just hate doing it, and it rubs me the wrong way and goes against the spirit of Dominion:

Play the same kingdom twice.

I know, right? Bleah! But seriously, try it. On the first play, do the correct thing and stomp the living snot out of the beginner. They will see what you do and will copy it. In fact, during the second playthrough, help them decide what to do during the play to copy your strategy. In that second game, do something different yourself. You will usually lose, but the new player has had a chance to try the correct strategy. You will sometimes win, illustrating to the new player that there are many roads to victory, but they won't think that the wonky one is the correct one (because when you played the first game, the primary strategy was probably clearly better.)

But I only do that if I can get the new player to commit to playing at least two kingdoms, because you have to play at least two to understand how deep and replayable it is. Four games is still reasonably quick.

46
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I once played a 6P IRL game with 4 first time players.

Never again!

If I'm teaching Dominion to a group of IRL 6 players, I set up two 3-player kingdoms on opposite ends of the table, play one game, then have everyone switch seats and play the other kingdom. It's faster, more fun, a better experience, and underscores the dramatic differences between kingdoms and replayability of the game.

47
Dominion General Discussion / Re: "I couldn't help myself"
« on: December 11, 2017, 09:56:25 am »
Horn of Plenty

48
Dominion General Discussion / Re: "I couldn't help myself"
« on: December 11, 2017, 09:53:04 am »
Procession.

49
Dominion General Discussion / Re: "I couldn't help myself"
« on: December 11, 2017, 09:50:11 am »
Estate rush in a Battlefield game with a cheap +buy or gainer.

I'm pretty good at two-piling.

50
Bridge Troll + Patrician

I reveal an Emporium! Hooray! It costs $5, so it goes in my haaaaa.....oh, no it doesn't.

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