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51

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Feedback needed: Define card categories

« on: September 20, 2012, 05:45:10 pm »

Colliders? That's not quite the right term for all of them, but it is for some of them.

Colliders
Fool's Gold
Treasure Map

Dependants (Dependers? Requirers?  Parasitic? Piggybackers? Or to borrow an OOP term - Compound cards?)
Baron
Tournament
Crossroads
Moneylender
Spice Merchant
Stables
Conspirator (?)

Collider implies - to me at least - that both parties collide with each other, but in the dependants cases they require the other card, but the other card does not require them, if you see what I mean.

52

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Ruins/Shelters vs. Curses/Estates

« on: September 18, 2012, 06:25:22 am »

See, this is why I like coming to these forums - the combination of people's careful analysis and sheer experience always means I frequently have to re-assess the cards and see them in a different light. Finding stuff out for yourself is also part of the fun of Dominion itself too. Still, I'll have to give these things a thorough playing for myself over time.

53

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Ruins/Shelters vs. Curses/Estates

« on: September 17, 2012, 04:12:53 pm »

Having said all that, I agree with the OP that it doesn't all add up to the wow factor that Prosperity had - the game just seemed to take off, and not just because of Plat/Colony, but because of the special Treasures kind of adding up to a second action phase of sorts - Prosperity felt empowering and decadent. Durations, not so much, and Potions I never really took to, they they do make for a different game for sure. To be fair though, I think that's something special about Prosperity rather than something negative about Dark Ages. Not many of the other sets were real game changes, so I'm not that bothered. Dark Ages appears to add elements that would seismically change the way it's played, it could easily looks like they should, but that doesn't mean they will and doesn't mean they were intended too either.

Are they worthwhile in their own right? Hmm, I suppose that part of the question is still valid, and shelters...I'm not totally convinced by to be frank. Having only one of each drastically limits their effect, and the duality of Estates (they're VPs but you should trash them) was part of the charm, but these are basically designed to encourage you to get rid of them (other than Necropolis), which sort of makes me wonder why they're there at all. I suppose with Ruins they're certainly game changing when there's another curser out there as people have mentioned, but with, say, Cultist and no curser, how different a game is that? I think I'll wimp out and say that time will tell, it's early days yet. Wait till people really get their teeth into them and we'll see how it all irons out - there's always some surprising stuff that turns up, and I wonder what it's going to be this time.

54

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Ruins/Shelters vs. Curses/Estates

« on: September 17, 2012, 11:18:31 am »

Regarding Cultist in general - yes, I had it in mind, but speed is an attribute of Cultist, not an attribute of Ruins, which are what the poster was asking about. The same argument is not true of Marauder at all for example.

IGG demonstrates my point well (even though you were using it as a counter):

Ruins =/= Curses and you need to consider them differently. Why?
1. Because you would go for the Curses first. If they go IGG and you go Cultist, I suspect you would lose on points (not a given though I don't imagine). Your effort was not nearly as efficiently spent as your opponents because you didn't actually affect their score at all.
2. If you both go IGG but you lost the Curse split, it would be very risky to go Cultist after that as that would hasten your end.
3. If you lost the Curse split the other play could simply buy Ruins to speed up the end without fear of affecting his score. They  could technically do that with Curses, but only if you had already won the split by enough and had got another pile down already (unlikely). Buying up Ruins is far more realistic.

So yeah, if you're up on Curses and want to end the game, sure hammer Cultist/Ruins. But not if you're behind. This is a different approach than you would have with Curses.

55

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Pillage pinning

« on: September 17, 2012, 11:05:44 am »

Bloody hell, of course. Oops.

56

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Ruins/Shelters vs. Curses/Estates

« on: September 17, 2012, 08:46:39 am »

The thing about Ruins is that they're not nearly as bad as Curses, so assessing your strategy on the rough assumption that "so those are essentially curses" can lead to mis-steps. Primarily this is because the Ruins don't affect your final score (negatively at least), so that can lead you to over-prioritze the need to pummel them with Ruins - sure it's great if you can, but spending all your effort trying to do so doesn't pay off nearly as well as it would with Curses. As we all know, Dominion is about doing things more efficiently and quickly than your opponent, so any effort wasted (however little) could in the end be (wait for it ...) ruinous!

57

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Pillage pinning

« on: September 17, 2012, 04:32:28 am »

A reliable Pillage every turn will surely rip apart most engines and slow down BM drastically.

The trouble with a Pillage every turn is that if you use all 5 cards to work the magic you're not actually getting yourself anywhere, you're just putting your own game on hold while the other player can still progress, just slower. You need something else in there to let you actually buy better things than your opponent who, if they have any sense, will just buy a pillage themselves and screw your plan up that you spent all game building. Edit - then again, you can always pillage their pillage first....

58

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Dark Ages benchmarks

« on: September 14, 2012, 06:49:35 am »

@clb - the on-trash effect is a definite plus, but it's useless if you're going BM+Cultist as you have nothing to trash it. To get the most out the Cultist you need to leverage that too, which is where a more sophisticated engine comes into play. However, the ability to chain them, even after the ruins are out, is really strong. In a BM deck they effectively become laboratories when the Ruins are out and this they may lead them to shine over the witch in terms of actually purchasing the provinces. Still, there will be an optimal amount of cultists to buy as too many would be a waste of buys (just like too many labs is a waste of buys, you end up with not enough hard cash).

59

Dominion General Discussion / Re: When do cards do things

« on: September 13, 2012, 11:11:08 am »

So Looters don't count because they're in the general rules for an expansion, but Durations cards do count because ... ? Seems to me that's the normal action of that card type, not a property of specific cards. Had they not been labelled duration, then well that would be different. But they were. Edit: then again, the duration cards do actually specify on themselves "do this stuff next turn", the rule about Duration cards is only that they stay in play until they've got no useful effects left. Hmm.

Regarding Rats: I didn't realise the wording was that specific, that's interesting. If you're going to include them then you should probably include Knights cards too as you have to shuffle them before you play.

If you're including Black Market, then surely Spoils cards, Hermit, Tournament and Urchin count in 'Before the start of the game' too? They all make you add a non-supply pile of some description like Black Market.

60

Dominion General Discussion / Re: When do cards do things

« on: September 13, 2012, 08:27:17 am »

Yeah I was about to mention Rats. It's not really event-based at all as far as I'm concerned so shouldn't be in the list. It's just there happens to be more Rats cards than normal. I don't see it as "on setup, take 20 rats cards", it's just plain "take the rats cards" like everything else. The rulebook just clarifies that, yes, there are 20 rats cards. If you are going to include rats then you should consider the VPs too, which really actually do have on-setup rules (8/12 in the stack).

61

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Best $0-$1 cards?

« on: September 12, 2012, 05:20:45 pm »

Well, thanks for the detailed reply. I didn't think your list itself was intended to be authoritative, just that such a list was the end goal of the thread, but maybe I misjudged that.

Anyway, yeah, I pretty much agree with all you've said there, including not being sure about the basic VP cards' inclusion. They're weird, it's like, they work so differently, they're total dead weight until the end of the game at which point they're the only thing that counts, so that makes the comparisons ..... strained? It's weird though that including the non-basic ones seems fine.

62

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Best $0-$1 cards?

« on: September 11, 2012, 11:27:23 am »

....what?

To re-iterate: I'm questioning the value of creating/discussing such a list, given that there's a fair amount of apples being compared with oranges in it eg Non-supply to $0 cost supply. It might be interesting to discuss, but there's probably very little to be gained from actually ordering them in any sense. Also, given that the author of this list seems to be trying to create something to fit in with all the other Best Cards list, I'm questioning some of their inclusions in it eg Copper and Curse - seeing as no other basic supply cards have been included thus far, which would alter the $6+ category significantly. That's all. Which non-supply cards are best would be useful, which ruins are the most painful and which shelter should you ditch first etc. are all valuable in their own right, but in my opinion if you just push them all together it just confuses the findings.

63

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Best $0-$1 cards?

« on: September 11, 2012, 08:37:40 am »

What other basic supply cards costing $0/1 were omitted from the list?

As in, was silver in the "best $3" list? Was Province in the $6 above category?

--

Regardless, Curses were designed as punishments, let's say that much. Yes, they can help you (eg taking a curse to use with ambassador) and we've all bought a curse or two to end the game, but to compare Followers with Curse in any meaningful way is, I still hold, pointless. Yes, you might want to take a curse over Followers to end the game, but for one thing you can't because it doesn't work like that - if you're taking a prize then you're not in your buy phase and so you cannot get a curse (yet), and vice versa, so the 'choice' at that moment is non-existent as taking a prize doesn't preclude taking a curse. Second the benefit you're placing on curses is not at all specific to them, it's true of all supply cards. Yes, Prizes are non-supply, but as mentioned non-supply cards are not mutually exclusive with your buy and so the proposed end-game choice does not exist. The comparisons just janky, and regardless of the minutiae of the discussion the net result in this case is still "yeah, on the whole Followers is better than Curse". Great.

Yes, some decisions are context sensitive and the're much nuance in Dominon, but that's not the point of these lists is it? These lists are to generalise and give a rough representation of which are thought be on-the-whole better than others. You may be in a situation where you want to take a Curse over a Province or something (I note that VP cards do not appear in these lists either, think about why), but are we going to start having a serious discussion about which card - Province or Curse - is generally, on-the-whole better and you'd rather have as a general rule of thumb?

64

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Best $0-$1 cards?

« on: September 11, 2012, 06:39:07 am »

Just to heartlessly drag this wildly derailed topic back on track for a moment:

The fact that all the 0* are stacked at the top without exception highlights that comparing them with the 0s and 1s is pretty futile. It might be the right order, but we don't learn anything from that, which is the important bit. The order they appear in, yeah that's worth discussing perhaps, but not in the context of "are they better than curse?" which is pointless.

Also, the context of all these cards is completely different: Shelters, Ruins and Curses. The first you can't buy, you only ever have one and are designed to leave your deck, the others are actually punishments. Would I rather have X or Y? just isn't relevant when you don't have a choice with the Shelters.

Also - Copper? Did the other basic supply cards make it into the lists?

65

Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: Knights!

« on: September 10, 2012, 08:38:04 am »

Re: Cultist

One game I tried I used Procession on Fortress repeatedly (just for utility) but took a Cultist as the upgrade. As I started processioning them too the Cultists just took off and the game swung completely, with all the ruins disappearing in about 2 turns. So yeah, Cultists can be ace, and I think the synergy with procession is particularly notable when the ruins are running low : the on-trash effect is so good and probably won't need the cultist anymore. Very nice. The other player was in the lead, having opened with Dame Anna (trashing knight) which was awesome and just taking off from there, but with a slim deck the ruins dump just crippled them and it was over for them.

66

Dominion General Discussion / Re: What's a reasonable time control for Dominion?

« on: September 08, 2012, 03:19:45 pm »

I'm left wondering if you've never been stuck in a game with a griefer who is hoping to wait you out.

I have, but I didn't get the impression that this was what the OP was asking about - it seemed to me they were thinking of a time limit in terms of general tournament logistics, not "how long before we should time-out douche-bags". My opinion on that is inline with polokus: you should have human intervention. Those kind of things are judgment calls, like unsporting behaviour in a football match. Martial arts have rules in place that mean you get docked points for lack of attacking play, but it still takes a referee to make that call.

Playing computer games has made people get used everything being black and white and the idea if a player can physically (digitally) do that then it's all kosher and fine, and if it's not fine then we need to make sure the player physically cannot do that in the game. Well, often we have to play by that standard because there's no other way to enforce it, but for me that's not ideal at all, it's an unfortunate practical limitation that should be avoided if possible.

If people going to be douche-bags then they'll be douche-bags. If it's not by slow play then it'll be something else. Don't change the rules just because some of you haven't got the patience in a tournament to out-wait a slow player you've clearly beaten. It might be sporting to concede, but you don't see tennis players doing that do you? You need to find some way to notice it warn/disqualify them (eg take the time-hit on a long game, but get game logs with time-stamps, or look at the chat logs to see if they're chatting shit at you the whole game or whatever). In a face-to-face tournament this just would not be a problem at all, it would be so easy to spot.

67

Dominion General Discussion / Re: What's a reasonable time control for Dominion?

« on: September 08, 2012, 10:30:25 am »

Personally I wouldn't limit the time at all. It's not a long game like Chess that can go on for several hours (and some long games like tennis don't have time limits), it's a very quick game - a time limit is really not necessary for dominion, just be generous with the scheduling times to allow/compensate for overruns. There's no need to be draconian about such a quick game.

What would you do when the time runs out? That person loses (a la chess)? It's a draw? You add up the current VPs even though they're not all out? None of those are very appealing and the run the risk of influencing the strategy, which would be terrible in my opinion.

68

Dominion General Discussion / Re: How the promo card in Base Cards/Dark Ages works

« on: September 08, 2012, 05:41:55 am »

You want a discount because you already have one card from it? That you got as a freebie? Sheesh.

69

Dominion FAQ / Re: Dominion Lingo Dictionary

« on: September 07, 2012, 04:09:13 pm »

'Estate Tennis' could probably do with a mention as it's pretty obscure.
Perhaps 'Dead cards' too (different from drawing dead), though maybe that's self explanatory.

On reading through I wonder if Greening could do with a slightly expanded explanation. Greening - at least to me - is not simply the point when you start buying VP cards, as this could really be any time for the inexperienced player, but more specifically refers to the point where you make a concerted effort to start buying up the VP cards en masse, and is in some ways is analogous with a point sort between the mid-game and the end-game (wherever the heck that might be). Sometimes you might catch an early province, and I don't know about you guys but I'm not sure that's what is typically meant by greening, it's not the shift of gears that greening seems to imply to me. It's a subtle distinction and it doesn't need a massive explanation (like my verbose ramblings), but I think it's worth alluding to. Then again, I could be totally wrong.

70

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Now I feel like a hipster...

« on: September 07, 2012, 11:21:05 am »

TS?

71

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Now I feel like a hipster...

« on: September 07, 2012, 04:25:26 am »

Tried Settlers C&K and there were some great ideas in there (eg the progress cards etc being more varied and stuff), but there was just something not there about it. It was too long for my group and it seemed to lack that elegance that vanilla has. In fact that's something I'm wondering about with Dominion: DA (bought it, just waiting to play it) and it's often something that expansions have a tendency to spoil. So while I own C&K we never play it, and I wonder if it will be the same with Dark Ages (though more likely that'll be due to my mates not being experienced enough with Dominion to properly grok it).

To bring this back round to the real topic at hand: I can imagine DA not going down too well with the BGG crowd (though haven't looked to check) because of much the same reasons we give C&K a miss. I think ISO has really changed the nature/community of this game in a fundamental way, because other than DXV hammering it out in testing hardly anyone would've played enough games to generate the level of analysis and strategy we have here.

72

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Island

« on: September 06, 2012, 07:14:22 pm »

Unless there is another $4 you really want, might as well get rid of those two.

What about another Island? Or is that just putting good money after bad, so to speak?

73

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Island

« on: September 06, 2012, 05:07:31 pm »

With Island-copper-copper-copper-copper, if you island away a copper then sure you've got rid of a dead card, but you've still got the original dead card (say an estate) still in there. Does this simply not factor in? Is it simply just more effective (though of course everything depends in Dominion) to get rid of that copper?

74

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Now I feel like a hipster...

« on: September 06, 2012, 06:36:34 am »

Settlers seems to get a really bad rep on this forum. Personally it's a game my group regularly plays (though pretty much always at someone else's request). The thing about it is we have 5 players. Dominion is shit with 5 players. Settlers is not (and is arguably better with 5 than with 3-4 players). The thing about it that many games are missing (dominion included) is that in a group setting is that it keeps you fairly well involved even though it's not your turn, even more so in 5-6 players as you can build in between turns. With many strategic games the waiting between turns can be really tedious, and in fact it's waiting like that that's often a key factor that makes a lot traditional/classic boardgames such utter rubbish - far too much waiting. With Settlers you're watching the dice roll every turn and then trying to trade, and then perhaps building. Sure, it's not particularly heavyweight, and that can make it dull, but then I don't always want heavyweight (and my mates rarely do) which is why games like King of Tokyo are really good. Heavyweight games that are as slick, intuitive and deep as Dominion though are very rare - many big strategy hitters just bog you down in shit loads of rules and stuff and can take a long time with crap loads of AP, and I think we are very spoiled with Dominion, it's simply that good.

Note: I've spiced Settlers up by designing and printing my own set of custom development cards that are a lot more varied and wide-ranging - that keeps it a little more interesting for sure. I should probably whack them up on BGG or something, but they use loads of pinched art from dominion and citadels and such like.

75

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Discard & Trash Piles + Dark Ages

« on: September 05, 2012, 04:24:42 am »

Right, ok thanks for clearing that up.
Regarding different arrangements for the trash pile ... hmm, sounds like a bit of a pain. I was thinking of using the gold coins placed on the Forager randomizer for that part, but then you could forget to update it and also you'd still need to search through to see which treasure cards have not been trashed yet. Not terrible, but not ideal either. As for Graverobber and Rogue, yeah there's doesn't seem to be any really convenient way around that that I can think of right now, and that's going to get even more messy if cards like highway and bridge are floating around. Hmm. Guess I'll just have to see how that stuff pans out. Probably be fine in the end.