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176

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: November 23, 2011, 02:00:36 pm »

I think you're both wrong - the first Rats does absolutely nothing!! The first time you play a Rats there are, unfortunately, no Rats in play. So you get nothing. Or at least that's how I understand it (considering that you can play cards without them ever being in play with KC/TR). So I think the wording needs to be fixed.

Strange variation suggestion (but cornucopia messes with the basic rules a fair bit here so...) - if the Rats get hammered, have you considered having a stack of 20? I think +1 card, +1 action for the first Rats is ok, I mean, pawn often gets used for that, and great halls have that and only cost one more than an estate for the luxury.

As for gaining a curse....dunno, seems a bit rough. Why not have it trash one of the rats instead?

Relief - in trashing games, remodel games and multi-player this will be strictly better than Gold in no time - significantly cheaper and with a +Buy to boot. That's not good in my opinion. The times when there's useful stuff in the trash is not that often, I'll give you that, but the time when there's 6 or more cards in the trash is...well, that's pretty often I'd say. Often by the end of turn 4 in a 3 or 4 player game. You could up the card count, but would risk gimping it in 2 player.

Relief and Morgue both work too well with Chapel. Open Chapel, Relief - then trash 4, relief is now worth $2 with a +buy. Next time chapel shows, Relief is a gold. And you have free +buy so you can hammer the fuck of out them, with the hammer-the-fuck-out-of-them factor being self-multiplying by virtue of being able to freely play treasures, thus getting tons of +buys with the cash to boot. Morgue: Chapel allows you to remove the weakness of Morgue while reaping the most benefits with a concentrated deck. Still, Chapel is a powerful card and has that kind of effect. Not sure how people feels about this in perspective with other Chapel combos (eg Fool's Gold seems similar-ish)

177

Dominion General Discussion / Re: +1 card, +1 action, +1 coin

« on: November 23, 2011, 08:52:53 am »

I'm just being a bit nitpicky here and it's just not really a heavyweight thread, so pinch of salt etc., but some of those are weird, disjointed comparisons in my opinion, most notably Grand Market and City. Perhaps even Highway and Conspirator. They come from very different angles and I certainly wouldn't considered the first two variations on +1 card, +1 action and +1$. Sure, they contain that bonus, but....I dunno, seems weird.

178

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: November 21, 2011, 07:25:18 pm »

Oooo, wowzer, very interesting stuff. Lots of thoughtful changes on first glance, will give some feedback in a bit.

179

Dominion General Discussion / Re: +1 card, +1 action, +1 coin

« on: November 21, 2011, 03:38:05 pm »

I'm sure you know this, but, well, cantrips can harm your deck, when you're using dead-drawers (smithy, councilroom). Sure they're generally ace, and it's hardly a massive drawback, but still, with a big drawer like CR it can really piss you off! That's something I'm working on at the moment actually, really trying to avoid those clashes with careful card choice.

180

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: November 21, 2011, 03:33:31 pm »

The problem with Relic for me is that, well it almost costs as much as a gold, yet requires the presence of 4 other cards to get there. But you're saying it can be a gold with a drawing card - so it depends on a even better cards now to be worth it? And even then it might just be a silver if that doesn't pay off? Sure, they stack etc., but the point I didn't make about the big mega turns that you envisage where it's worth super dosh is that they will be so rare because, well, your deck has to be full of crap for the Relic's to be worth anything, so if it's full of crap how are you going to draw shit loads of cards? Counting House only works by virtue of scooping out the discard pile. Getting big hands takes some doing, and we try and do that at the best of times, let alone when we have a deck chocked with junk (and curses!). It combos well with Highway as pointed out, but then you're can competently avoid having crap like that (and in fact that's the only way you'll manage to play enough Highways to have an effect), which is not how you envisage the card clearly. Again, would be interesting to see it in play, if only for me to be proved wrong.

As for the -1$ - can I still take a copper with -1$ money? I know it would be silly to play it in that circumstance, but the fact that you can play it means you have to have an answer for that. Just a note about how you cannot have less than 0 money on the card somehow is needed.

Note: just add to what ChaosRed said, it's because the ideas here are actually quite interesting and intriguing that this is getting some real critique, so yeah, salt etc.

181

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Alternate Newbie First Board?

« on: November 21, 2011, 08:39:18 am »

I would with both sentiments expressed so far - First Game does get repetitive, but also it is a really good teacher.

The thing about first games is that people are learning the rules, and not the strategy. I've thought about steward and moneylender at times, but I'm hesitant because while that's basic stuff for us it's the third or fourth step for new players I find. The strength of trashing only becomes apparent when you have a yardstick to measure it against, when you have a feel for the speed of a deck without it. Mid-late game the effect of trashing is neglible, and early game you'll likely have to explain why its good, which I would rather avoid (I'd rather explain that buying is good first!)

Still, solid suggestions all round for swap-ins from lympi. Bureacrat especially, it's not as 'mean' as militia. Courtyard, not thought of that before, yeah that's a good shout. Also depends on the crowd - maybe just balls out and whack in the torturer!

182

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: November 20, 2011, 07:07:45 pm »

Yes, you can't trash coppers. My point I guess that if you can't trash coppers and you're not getting cursed, then really, what's it for? If you are getting cursed, then it's great, too good probably - timing is far less an issue than other trashers, and unlike other trashers it doesn't reduce your hand size, so it's similar too but way better than a steward. If you CAN trash coppers it's - as mentioned before - too good also, for the same reasons.

An interesting idea could be you must trash two things from your discard pile. Bear in mind that you're not allowed to look through your discard pile. However, that's not as thematic.

Scavenger - definitely an improvement. Needs playtesting. Still, a cost of $0 though, bit odd. Don't think anyone will ever use it to gain a copper though.

Relic: -1$, needs clarification if you're going to keep that - what happens if I have -1 total money? (i.e. Relic on its own) Further, you need a Relic, and two $0s just to make it to $1 to spend from the relic.....3 cards to get $1 that's ... well, that's terrible. And it costs $5. You need a lot of junk in your hand to make this worth it. Even with the possibility of getting 2 curses and coppers + relic in my hand say, I reckon I'd still buy a silver as there's more occasions that it will be useful.

183

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: November 20, 2011, 03:52:02 pm »

Erm, when is there a province in the trash? Well, I trash provinces deliberately relatively often. You push your province advantage by trashing a province and just replace it with another - use either Forge, Remodel, Salvager or various other cards. It really is quite common I think. Saboteur is the other obvious province trasher. I'm pretty sure we've all had a province (or more than one) trashed by saboteur which is super painful, it would be ridiculous to  have it trash, then the other chap gain it for themselves in the same turn....a 20VP swing (if colonies) with 2 actions? And still a buy to go? That's a bit much.

" i think, how small its effect is most times balances the unlikely but possible big effect it can have." - this is classic pitfall of game balance (computer games or whatever). "Item A is generally pretty useless, but occasionally it's fucking awesome" just smacks of ropey balance to me. It makes game really really swingy, which detracts from the feeling that you're in control of the game. Note also that just because you can both buy it, doesn't make it a balanced card.

Now, you could argue that the presence of scavenger what deter you from trashing stuff, which is fair enough, but the fact that you can't get things back from the trash is inherent in the benefits you gain in trashing. Take apprentice. (+1 action, Trash a card, get +cards equal to its cost). That's going to be silly good - trash a province or colony, knowing full well you'll have a scavenger in there eventually which cost you nothing, use the extra cards to buy another province and scavenge the old one back in the meantime. That's crazy good. The whole reason you get 8 cards for trashing a province (8 cards is loads!) is because it's working under the assumption that you are genuinely trashing that and giving it up. How about Upgrade - trash a province into a platinum, then gain the province back immediately after. Free platinum, due to 0$ cost card. I dunno.

Anyway, I don't understand quite why you'd want it normally. Most of the stuff in the trash is junk, obviously. I'll be a little more constructive and say how about scavenging through your discard pile and putting something on the top of your deck?

As with all these cards, I'd be interested to hear how they performed in play-testing.

Rats - Ah I misunderstood Rats, right, you put the RATS on top of their deck, and not the curse. I see. Hmm, bit more complex that way. With the abundance of villages out there, I'd surprised if I found myself need +2 actions at the risk of gaining a curse. Still, if its the Rats getting passed that make it more interesting and less of an attack.

Quarantine - dunno, 2 curses each time is just a lot for one bonus I think. they don't clog up your deck, but the extra VPs you'll need to compensate will. 4 curses will require 2 VP cards to compensate (assuming a 4/4 split), and that's only going to gain you a laboratory really, or worse a treasury without the benefit. The versatility is nice, sure, but I'm not sure it's adequate compensation. The flip-side however is that turns into an absolute monster of a card if you take 8 curses. +4 cards + 1 action - hard to balance for sure. Needs play-testing for sure. Might be worth considering a max limit to number of bonuses. Or 1 bonus per curse etc.

Missionaries - in a game where you don't get cursed, there's very little else you're going to want to trash other than copper and the starting estates. Compare to steward, which can do both things, but only one at a time - this card does both (+2 cards, and 2 trashes) and without gimping your hand from trashes too.

184

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: November 20, 2011, 07:18:45 am »

Very thematic and some really nice ideas, though a couple fundamental issues with some of the cards for me:

Rats: Donald X. (the maker) has specifically tried to remove game politics from dominion, which is why all the attacks cannot be target at anyone. Personally this is something I really like about the game. The most specific it gets is with cards like Tribute that target the person to your left. Your card, rats, is essentially an attack, and it allows you to pick on one player to be the victim.

Relic: this card will be no use in a game with no trashing (which is relatively common).

Poisoned Well: still some use when there's curse giving cards (+1 action, +2$) but then it's a very different card and will balance very differently. Would you buy a +1 action, +2$ card for 2 if you got a curse? Not really. Probably best to just take a copper if you're that desperate, or usually nothing at all.

Scavenger: again, no real use if there's no trashing cards. Sure you can gain a copper into hand, and maybe you might want to get it for some kind of counting house scenario, but then with no +action you'll want to be using something better for your action, so you'd probably be better off just buying a copper in the first place. Dunno. Also, 0$ for a card that get me a gold or province out of the trash? (God forbid a platinum or colony) Sheesh, that's crazy good. (They can be forced in by saboteur, rushed in by end-game acceleration.) But then most of the time it could be really useless as obviously most of it is junk (hence the 0$ cost) - so as mentioned by Graystripe77, gaining from the trash is super hard to balance.

Having said that, I like the way the theme interacts amongst the cards. I wonder if it's similar to Alchemy in the way that it would be best when there's 3 or 4 from the same set. I also wonder if, like Alchemy, you might be better served by adding a new card like "plague" or "contagion" that's similar to curses but allows you more freedom with the mechanics.

Quarantine: I like quarantine, but I think it's underpowered. Consider a Pawn. It gives you two of those benefits, only costs $2 (half the price) and doesn't involve getting 4 curses. So while quarantine could be super-charged, you'd need to take some serious curses to make that happen. Granted, those curses won't be clogging up your deck - which is an interesting feature - so it's just negative points, but would I really like to spend 4 actions and -8 VPs just to turn my quarantines into what is either a lvl2 city, a Worker's Village, a bazaar or a market? Sounds like too much hard work to me. I wonder what it would be like at one curse per increment. How has this card played out in your testing?

Outbreak - again, great theme. Not too sure about gaining the $5 card, but again I'm curious to hear how this has gone in playtesting. Overall I think this card is a nice idea - you need to be cursed to dish them out etc.

Hmm, overall though the strong theme and interactions are really appealing. Keep tweaking!

185

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Why can't i get any better?

« on: November 19, 2011, 03:53:22 pm »

Well, I'm no great player, but the things you mention there all relate pretty much to the start of the game and revolve around close of study of the cards i.e. it's the more academic part of the game. This is great obviously, but it doesn't really involve the opponent as such - planning a strategy involves an opponent for sure, but is not specific to your opponent who could do something unpredictable.

So with that in mind, how's your reactionary play? How's your timing of the greening phase? How do you change your game with respect to your opponent? How's your deck-management (shuffle awareness, card-counting etc.) too?

Also, I'm probably reading too much into your wording here so forgive me, but be carefully of working under the idea of "I know how to..." - the best tend to always assume they don't know and that there's something else to learn. This can change your receptiveness and subtly shifts your state of mind.

186

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Help! I've become too good!

« on: November 17, 2011, 04:30:40 am »

Yes, that was more my intent, and dondon151 is also right in that they're not mutually exclusive. Generally I naturally just go straight for the jugular like the opening poster it would seem, and this is kind of what I find most ... well 'fun' perhaps isn't quite the right word - satisfying, engaging, exciting, stimulating, engrossing are probably better. But over the years I've tried to nurture the skill of relaxing about the winning side of things, partly because of the issues talked about here, but also partly because I used to get pretty worked up about winning/losing. Sure, I really enjoy playing competitively and often can be really competitive at times, but being able to play 'just for fun' (for lack of a better wording) allows me to play with people who normally just wouldn't bother (like my parents when I go visit for example), and that's nice. If I get hardly any competitive games ever though, then yeah, I'll probably not enjoy the game (as a purchase) as much as I'd like.

187

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Help! I've become too good!

« on: November 16, 2011, 02:14:20 pm »

Oh man, that is ridiculous, ha ha - just stop being a jerk!! I did that with my gaming buddies via isotropic, sure, but they can take it and picked it all up super quick. That reminds me though, iso is different from real life - the sheer quantity of games you can play really quickly on iso makes it different. Face-to-face you don't get so many in, so they have to count a bit more otherwise they feel like wasted time. On iso it's so quick that it doesn't matter which sounds like what you're used to, so bear that in mind too.

I do, however, always play to win.

If this is causing a problem then just don't do it! Play to have fun! Play whatever way you can to make the other person enjoy it, because you get plenty out of dominion as it is already. You don't have to make comedy plays as such, just ease off the accelerator, at least until she can compete a bit more.

Regarding being the tutor - depends very much on the manner in which it's done and how receptive the person is of course. Most people are up for a little bit of advice, but if becomes a sizeable feature of every game ... well that might not be so fun. Certainly give it a go though, it seems to have worked for ChaosRed. The sheer volume of cards in Dominion make it hard for new comers unfortunately, you just simply have to play a fuck-load of games to get to know them all. Consider only using one or two sets maybe for a while maybe.

188

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Province vs Colony

« on: November 14, 2011, 04:13:07 pm »

Provinces can be good if your opponents aren't expecting it, especially with an accelerator like remodel or salvager (ie. trash a province to get another province if you have nothing better to do, simply to speed the way to the end). Remodel can be particularly useful (or at least it has in some of my games) in that having numerous 6 cards (eg grand market) as part of a a thundering great deck is more common in colony games, so some times you can bag a several provinces really quickly. As mentioned though, it's certainly not an even split between whether to go provinces or colonies, provinces is more considered and context-specific choice.

189

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Analyzing a board

« on: November 11, 2011, 04:33:54 am »

Another consideration is that really you only need to decide your first couple buys at this point. Often it'll be an action that can go in one of many ways from turn 3 onwards, + a silver. It's definitely good to think the board through, but you'll have more information after the first two turns when you see what your opponents buy - this information could change your plan. So I try to avoid planning games out too far at the beginning and consider only planning as far as I need to (though obviously to do so I will have to think further ahead than just next turn!)

190

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Handicapping

« on: November 10, 2011, 06:54:16 pm »

What about dealing the cards out into two rows, and only allowing yourself to buy from one of the rows for the entire game?

Regarding it seeming strange to you UltimaPenguin - I totally get where you're coming from, but, well, some people just aren't as excited by that kind of thing and just want a good game. I have friends whose company I really enjoy, and I would like to share this game with them. However, when I do must accept that they come at this with a different perspective.

I had a really similar thing with golf but from the other side. I enjoyed it, and I enjoyed spending time with my mate playing it. But I wasn't passionate about getting good at it (money, time, the culture etc.), even though being bad at it was frustrating at times. He was always giving me tips on my swing etc., but eventually we stopped playing when he tried to foist this golf book on me and just had to tell him "dude, I enjoy it but not enough to read a book on it". I just wasn't the partner he needed. Even so, I still play the odd game with him, and I'm fine if he has a handicap, or we're set slightly different challenges. It's like "YES! I WON!", it'ss just "cool, that was a good game" or whatever.

A game doesn't have be "all-out competitive" or "non-competitive", it can just be gentle and fun and not really about who wins, and any number of different shades of competitiveness inbetween.

191

Dominion World Masters / Re: Dominion WM Kingdom Sets

« on: November 10, 2011, 08:25:10 am »

@Donald X. - any particular reason why you had each set as an even split of two expansions? Bizarrely that's exactly how I've been experimenting with making the tables recently.

192

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Handicapping

« on: November 10, 2011, 06:24:34 am »

Dominion is a strange one, in that (for me and my friends at least) discovering the strategies is a large part of the fun.  I remember the discovering for myself that trashing stuff other than curses with chapel just sent your deck to the next level, it was a great moment. Even so, I've read about loads of crazy strats on here that I would've never figured out. Something that gets said a lot is "show don't tell" which does resonate with me, but with green players I'm wary of both approaches with cards like chapel - if you tell them then that spoils the surprise, and if you show them then you crush them mercilessly. It'd be ok.....if their weren't so many classic strats to demonstrate that they'll be bored of losing before you run out. Telling them can rankle a bit with some people too, some people don't really like that. It's tough, because if you just sit and wait for them to figure it out then, well, they may never figure it out which is probably even worse in the long run!

I suppose this kind of thing really does come down a frequent problem of mine: finding the right kind of playing partners. If someone simply isn't as keen and inquisitive at exploiting the mechanics as yourself (or perhaps they're more so than yourself and surpass you, which I've had) you can end up at a real mismatch that there really is no way out of, regardless of whether you tell them what to do, show them what to do, or let them figure it out.

193

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Handicapping

« on: November 09, 2011, 06:52:48 pm »

Yeah, winning when you've been given a starting boost can feel a little bit tainted. I agree also that a handicap for the better players is a wiser move - change the game for those who know it, not those who are trying to learn it.

Many of the handicaps mentioned might not have that much effect because beginner games can go on for a long time as they get distracted by all the actions and forget to actually buy any money. With regard to playing at less than 100% - that's a tricky one. I know that it kind of frustrates me when someone does it to me, and I'm left with a similar feeling to the one I just mentioned (hollow victory), but I think that attitude with regard to 'going easy' is less prevalent than one might think - competitive/keen players like the kind of person that bothers to go on a forum about it will naturally want to dig deep into the mechanics and get past the early learning phases, where as many other people just want to have some fun and really aren't fussed about actually getting good at the game. If it's those kind of people you're playing then just go easy and explore interesting combinations (and tell your mate not to be a douche!) Thinking of an interesting handicap once you've seen the board is a fun challenge - they're playing against you, but you're playing against yourself too - keep the challenge secret and just don't mention it at all, even if you lose. Just swallow your pride and see the real challenge as making sure you all have fun.

I know that for me this exact issue is why I stay off isotropic generally - it decreases the fun for both me and my mates if my skill level is way past theirs through me hammering game after game on iso. As I get older I'm starting to value having an enjoyable game more than I am being good at it, which frankly I'm glad of.

194

Dominion General Discussion / Re: is bureaucrat underestimate?

« on: November 08, 2011, 08:33:09 am »

One of the dangers with masquerade (one of my favourite cards btw) is in the late game when you start risking having to pass a good card, and so in holding back on the masq you're losing the +2 cards and hold a dead card too. I think this card also plays a little differently if everyone is getting it, not just yourself - often I'm the only one, and it performs amazingly, but if everyone has a go it's just not the same.

Regarding bureaucrat, friend of mine trounced me with this recently, or at least he attributed it to that. I was sceptical, hence the reason for me reading this thread. Personally my favourite use for this card is as an attack to put on the table with new players because it isn't too much of a ball-buster like Witch or something which can put people off sometimes. Bureaucrat has more strength in a game with mixed VP cards though (Great Halls, Nobles etc) which I don't think has been mentioned yet.

I think I'm going to give it a go a bit more.

(Though whoever above said 2xCourtyard BMU - that sounds awesome, need to try that first!)

195

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Favorite thematic cards

« on: November 04, 2011, 09:46:45 am »

Scheme - Conspirator : great inter-card theme (store up two schemes indefinitely to activate your conspirators every time)

Bridge - allows you access to land (greens) that were otherwise difficult to get to.

Masquerade - the action mimics the masquerade balls nicely, the type that go round in circles and people exchange partners etc.

Trade Route - this pretty thematic as well - the more land people have, the more trading occurs, the trashed card is the traded goods, the +1 buy is the thing your trading them for. Kinda.

196

Tournaments and Events / Re: Advice for organizing a tounament

« on: November 03, 2011, 12:22:21 pm »

Ideas for vanity prizes:

Lowest Winning Score, as you suggested (always amusing to lose/win something like 2 points to 1)
Biggest Winning Score (obviously)
Domination (all 8 provinces bought, first player only, kind of link 147 break in snooker)
Quickest Win
Most Cursed Player (will involve running total though, either tot up at end, or keep running score of curses given that count even if trashed)
erm...
Quickest Province (bit luck based though)
Biggest Purchase, as you suggested is good though it has to be coin actually spent of course
hmmm, drawing blanks now.

197

Tournaments and Events / Re: Advice for organizing a tounament

« on: November 03, 2011, 05:31:38 am »

ackack's suggestion is bit more like a league rather than a tournament (with turn order being the home/away replacement), but a league would be fine too, and a lot simpler. It depends whether you want a 'thrilling climax' or not I suppose, that head-to-head finale.

Edit - actually, a league kind of takes place periodically, so it probably is a round-robin tournament. I'm just splitting hairs here.

198

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Keeping Score

« on: November 02, 2011, 09:15:30 am »

You also do not get to - and this is important - scrawl notes to yourself on your belly using your own blood.

It seems to me that it's not a game of bodies and physicality (i.e. all of me vs all of you as you seem to be saying), it's a game of wits and mind. Your body is merely required to carry out the game decisions your mind thinks up.

(Not going to comment on any of the specific examples requested because don't want to put words into anyone's mouth, and also I'm genuinely curious about the distinction between mnemonics and paper)

With regard to "I don't think the game is about memory"....well, the creator just said it partly is. So it is. If you want to play a version that isn't, well, again, that's a variant. Your key phrases here are "In my mind" and "I personally", which should tell you the game in your head is probably your own version.

199

Dominion General Discussion / Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list

« on: November 01, 2011, 05:27:58 pm »

Ah yeah, it's only one Estate that's been got rid of, my mistake.

Thanks for the analysis by the way. Dominion is a very interesting game and I find there's many surprising strategic discoveries upon really close analysis or from putting them through a simulator that force me to re-asses my approach. This was again one of those times.

200

Dominion General Discussion / Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list

« on: November 01, 2011, 04:34:51 pm »

You've turned that estate into 2 silvers - and a trader. In short, all you've done is obtained a second silver buy, and that turn where you drew a trader instead of just a silver to do that was probably ruined in the process.

That's not all though, you've also got rid of two estates in the process, which is pretty significant in my opinion.