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151

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Boneheaded plays

« on: December 08, 2011, 02:02:40 pm »

Yeah, just yesterday I trashed a copper, gold and spy thinking it I would gain a province. Oops (was thinking of the treasure values of course).

152

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Modding rules for boring Intrigue cards

« on: December 07, 2011, 02:19:45 pm »

You thought about making the cards more interesting at all, rather than just plain better?

PS - Wishing Well can be a great card just as it is, you just gotta know when

153

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Boneheaded plays

« on: December 07, 2011, 02:17:20 pm »

Going for a Talisman, Village, Great Hall rush. Only to remember that Talismans don't work on VPs waaaay too late.

154

Dominion Articles / Re: Combo: Salvager / Spice Merchant

« on: December 06, 2011, 04:27:07 pm »

One of salvagers key attributes (when I play it anyway) is to trash provinces for provinces to speed it up if you're ahead - that +buy is absolutely awesome, and without any seriously conflicting cards in this setup that certainly seems a very present option here which would help even more.

155

Rules Questions / Re: The difference between Forge and Remodel when trashing no cards

« on: December 06, 2011, 03:07:19 pm »

Eesh, too much set theory.

I see it in programming terms (JavaScript in this instance):

Code: [Select]

function DominionCard(){
    this.cost = 5;
}

var duchy = new DominionCard();
// duchy.cost = 5;

// Remodel:
var trashedCard = null; // nothing was trashed
var remodelValue = trashedCard.cost + 2;
// gives a fatal type error as trashedCard.cost is undefined, so it fails out

// Forge:
var total = 0;
var trashedCards = []; // empty array
for(var i = 0; i < trashedCards.length; i++){
    total += trashedCards[i].cost;
}
// gives the correct value, 0
The key part is that a sum/total implies a starting value, that of 0, which things are added to.

156

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Four-player Mountebank: Estate rush?

« on: December 06, 2011, 02:05:18 pm »

@WW: perhaps technically true, but in pragmatic terms who really plays with anything other the full basic stack? To spot mountebank in 4P and then retroactively add more coppers would be odd. Also, does the game 'start' in some sense when you draw the random cards? (i.e. is it too late to add more to the basic supply) Or is it when the first cards are drawn from the deck?

Personally I wouldn't combine piles unless I was playing with 5 players or more. Coppers almost never run out, and that would make the game rare and interesting if it did.

157

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Four-player Mountebank: Estate rush?

« on: December 06, 2011, 06:12:25 am »

@Davio - 28 of those coppers are gone with the starting decks, if I'm remembering it right. So there's 30 curses and 32 coppers. So if all the curses have gone due to mountebank, then so will all but 2 of the coppers. (Probably) If each Mountebank hits, that's only 10 mountebank plays between ALL of you (3/4 each). That's not all that much I reckon. Still, yeah, the Mountebank will slow down after a while of course, and with its +2$ I think you've a good chance of hitting $5 for a duchy. Let the others guys hammer the Estates if you want, Duchies will be much more worth it.

I played a five player game with Witch once (40 curses) and worked out that that's only 2 witch plays each before the curses are gone! Attacks go a bit mad with more than 3 players.

158

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: December 03, 2011, 03:55:52 pm »

Yeah, well, maybe "completely the wrong way to go about it" was too harsh, and at the end of the day if the cards are good when it's all said and done then how you got there doesn't matter. However, you hit on the key point when you say "work hard enough to make it work" - it's much trickier to make cards that work from that direction, hence why rats is being such a problem.

I'm pretty sure though that most people would agree that the flavour in Dominion is minimal and it's the mechanics that make it so addictive - frankly, the game could be about just about anything at all, most of the time the people I play with barely consider what the cards actually represent. Compare to something like Pandemic which is absolutely bursting with theme - sure you could translate it to other themes, but the petri dishes, the world map, the scientific roles, all of it, accentuate it and give it a ton of flavour.

So it's because of this that with dominion the mechanical interactions of the cards are of prime importance so that they aren't outclassed by the existing set (that's a big ask though), and so nailing the mechanics should, in my opinion, be the main priority and first port of call. Would I like the game to be super themey? Sure. But the mechanics of it just don't promote that (though to be honest, a little italic line of flavour text on each card could've been a great addition to this game if done right). Still, after it's all said and done, I'm never going to play with these - nothing personal, I'm just not about to make a set of random people's fan cards - so whatever floats your boat really. We can all say the cards are great and fine as they are, which would be banal and pointless. Or we can all not get into strong disagreements about these cards and methods, but then you'd probably have a half-empty thread with some tepid critique that peters out. *shrugs*

159

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: December 03, 2011, 05:17:20 am »

Overall (this is a problem I find with my own card-day-dreams also), the thing is that people tend to think of an image, a style, a thing or object that they want a card to be, then think of what mechanics it should employ. Really we should all be thinking of good card mechanics to play, and then worry about what to call them after the fact (and whether they fit into a set). It's too easy to get hung up and on what you've called the card and fuss over whether the action/mechanics match it or not. So in your case - whether or not the current incarnation is successful - you've hung your hat on the fact that you want a card to embody rats, and so from that have drawn that at least a) it can't be expensive and b) has to occur in multiples. You've also gone so far as to stipulate that you want it cost $1. The card has changed radically, yet the name always remains the same and it generally has been a hinderance to the well being of the card from what I see.

Sure, you might spot a conceptual niche that doesn't have a card etc, but that's more to do with unexploited mechanics and thematic derivation. So, while you may have arrived at a good solution, this is completely the wrong way to go about it in general.

160

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: The Seven Deadly Sins - Mini-expansion concept

« on: December 01, 2011, 04:52:08 pm »

Ah, yes, a few of my random card ideas have been shot down in my head because of that one.

161

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: The Seven Deadly Sins - Mini-expansion concept

« on: December 01, 2011, 06:20:04 am »

The discard pile thing: it's not just the top card of your discard pile you need to order. You need to order all of them in case your have multiple Sloths. The way I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong) I need to order them in ascending order of value (to me) i.e. weakest on top going up to most valuable at the bottom. That would be boring to play with, and I can imagine Sloth getting vetoed regularly for that reason.

162

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: December 01, 2011, 06:06:04 am »

if Chapel is in the game, who's gonna be worried about curses? you could get rid of them faster than the Rats could give them out

The thing is that when there's trashing cards out there (remake would be another good example, but opening 2xAmbassador would be rough also) not everyone will go for a trashing strat necessarily (including if chapel is out there). If a certain combo is too strong however, they will forced into a certain strategic response. That happens occasionally in the game already, but the thing is that's not the best game design, it's not as fun to be forced into down fixed paths.

163

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Exception to the rule, part 2

« on: November 30, 2011, 03:13:45 pm »

Surprised this one hasn't been said: When you're buying an estate near the end.

Still, the issue of the value comparison being time-dependant is the elephant in the room on that one.

164

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: November 30, 2011, 03:08:53 pm »

Chapel + Rats says hello. The cantrip nature means you'd be able to trash shit loads too without conflict. Load 'em up with curses ASAP - gg. God forbid there's some pawns about for cycling +buys.

165

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Your nicknames for Dominion cards

« on: November 28, 2011, 04:16:29 pm »

Torturer is referred to as "Timmy the Torturer" or just Timmy by my circles (but not as in the South Park gag).

Any attack card that's a bloke tends to get referred to as "Knob-head" or "fuck-face", or even ruder versions (especially for Saboteur and Swindler).

Market = Le Marche (as in the french)

Counting House = Counting Haus (just said in a really camp german accent for some reason, god knows why)

Moat = Moaty!! (a la Gazza)

166

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: The Seven Deadly Sins - Mini-expansion concept

« on: November 28, 2011, 08:38:55 am »

Envy can't gain duchies on its own (if I understand the current rules right). You have to gain no fewer than two cards, neither of which can be a $0 value curse. So that means 2xEnvy, which is value 10. Even if you could gain a duchy for one Envy, that's a net gain of 0VP again. So yeah, not worth it, better to just buy a duchy in the first place and save yourself the bother of trying to trash all the junk.

Also, I think you misread Pride - at 5 curses it's not a cheaper duchy, it's a far cheaper colony. It's worth 2VP for every curse, and you  must include the Pride itself, because it's a curse too. so -2 + 6*2 = 10. For $4. Still, your point stands - it doesn't need an unlimited curse pile to make it interesting, it manages that fine with a regular pile.

Just to add to your comment about trashing, DStu - yeah, trashing the bad bits is a problem. I think it's also exacerbated by the fact that these cards have good value too. You're, say, remaking two Envies into two duchies in one go, giving you a 12VP swing. Eesh. One of the things about curses is there's bugger all to convert them into. HOWEVER, these would be absolutely fiendish with swindler on the board!!

167

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: The Seven Deadly Sins - Mini-expansion concept

« on: November 28, 2011, 04:41:50 am »

The ability of each card to stand alone amongst the other cards in Dominion is an important factor. What happens when you have the level of interdependence that these cards do is that some cards become essential (eg Pride) to make any of them worthwhile and secondly clear, prescribed strategies arise and not in a good way - the cards begin to rely on each other, rather than interact with each other. Take Envy - it relies on there being other curse cards around to match the prices up, otherwise it's completely useless as you can't get any at all (10 is minimum if only Envy is on the board, and no VPs cost 10). If the price doesn't have to be exact then, well 2xEnvy = Province which is a net gain of 0VP. Yay. Even the fact that Alchemy cards rely on Potion kind of bugs me a little bit, but as it goes in the basic supply and essentially just money it not so bad. As an exercise, I think it would be good to imagine each card as the only one of your new cards on the table, the rest are any other random cards as normal, and then see how it would fare.

Also, the curse pile - not everyone has base and intrigue. 30 curses might be the most you can go. Personally, I find that - as well as mandating 4/5 sin cards minimum in a game - too much of a departure from the basic rules for my tastes and would just stick with the regular numbers. Working within the constricted rules set is what makes this kind of thing interesting.

Regarding a new card type for only seven cards - there's only eight duration cards. So it's not that bad.

168

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: The Seven Deadly Sins - Mini-expansion concept

« on: November 27, 2011, 06:00:54 am »

I really like the concept, and nice job with the 'shopping. It seems like it would be a very different game with these floating about. Loads of flavour to all these cards.

I think the main thing I would comment on is the infinite VP pile. If it does run out and you have to use substitutions, well how are you going account for the fact that those curses should not only create negative points, but should also clog up you deck? It seems that having an infinite pile is a mechanical problem that can't be escaped.

The most obvious problem in terms of actual games is with Pride games - with an infinite curse pile how would the game end? Whack in a load of +buys and just sit there taking free curses the whole game.

Envy - interesting idea. Just be careful to price the curses accordingly, otherwise you end up in a forge scenario with nothing that adds up to the price you want (bear in mind that not all curses will be out in any one game).

169

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Cards That Care About The Trash

« on: November 25, 2011, 04:32:55 am »

@JackRudd - yeah that's what I was thinking - step 1 empty the River Ford. Step 2, continue with the game.

@Newcomer - Gaining from the trash is a problem (as mentioned in various threads) - eg 'Upgrade' a province into a platinum, then gain the province back. Except with this card you could gain the platinum that got trashed in the process instead or even as well. Or trash a 5 with Upgrade for 2 golds. And have spare actions still to go. Gaining into the hand is craziness too, making upgrade even stronger.

170

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Cards That Care About The Trash

« on: November 24, 2011, 07:49:16 pm »

@Jack Rudd: indeed, yet still, as I said, far far less powerful than in 4P. In 4P it would just be an absolute must-buy. Would you agree?

171

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Cards That Care About The Trash

« on: November 24, 2011, 06:49:27 pm »

Worth tons in 4P. Worth far far less in 2P.

172

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Nothing like online play to prove how bad I am ...

« on: November 24, 2011, 10:53:43 am »

Basically all the articles listed on the front page are really good. Dominion is as much about specific knowledge of the cards as it is heuristics and general strategy formulation. So with that in mind check out all the top/bottom 5 card lists too. (linked on front page) Regardless of the positions awarded, the analysis of the cards and situational usage examples are super informative, both for those exact cards and in terms of how to examine and evaluate others.

173

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Create a card inspired by another game

« on: November 23, 2011, 06:46:35 pm »

Red Dragon

Victory - Reaction
Cost: $5
Worth 4VP for every three Red Dragons (round down) in your deck at the end of the game.

When someone discards a Red Dragon (other than in clean-up) you may reveal this card and one or two other Red Dragons. If you do, you gain the discarded Red Dragon. Put your two Red Dragons in your discard pile. If you revealed three Red Dragons you also gain one random card from the current Kingdom (use the randomizer cards).

174

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: November 23, 2011, 03:59:42 pm »

Aahh, bank, of course. I stand corrected.

175

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: November 23, 2011, 03:02:49 pm »

Conspirator goes off actions in play? News to me. It goes off number of actions that you have played, which is different. Doesn't mean I'm right of course, but that example doesn't prove the point. It's not important either way though really.