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Messages - Loschmidt

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76
When it comes to getting your turn 3 Witch played on turn 4, though, Scavenger is no better than Chancellor at doing that (actually, it's very slightly worse). But definitely better in all other circumstances.

Wait, how is it worse?....Oh, i see you have to top deck before you can buy. It is a lot better in the case of turn 3 Witch, turn 4 Scavenger guaranteeing turn 5 Witch.

But back on topic, I think that Scavenger will make a difference. Not a big one, but a difference none-the-less.

Me too :)

77
Back in the day, when we didn't even have expansions, all the Johnnies out there took on Chancellor as a personal challenge. In fact this article is Drew Hardin trying really hard to justify Chancellor:

http://dominionstrategy.com/2011/01/28/guest-article-chancellor/

We were determined to use it to make deck variance work to our advantage. And sometimes it did. I mean, when your Chancellor/Silver collide on turn 3 to allow for a turn 4 Witch play, BAM! Thats why you're a Johnny.

Anyway, Scavenger gives Chancellor a top-decking buff. Yeehaa! Now I want to use Scavenger to see if I can keep my deck quality consistenly better than my discard, in the way we always wanted Chancellor to let us. If your deck it worse than your discard, reshuffle that baby. If not top deck something nice and keep going. Use sifters to assist.

Now I know that i can pull this off easily enough, but I wonder. Will it make a difference?

78
To be honest I'm still thinking this over, but apart from the things I've mentioned above there is one other thing I've noticed; while there are cards that let you trash multiple cards, and cards that let you gain multiple cards, there are no cards that do both.

Treasure Map does.

Nice! Seriously I love this forum. Every time a make a sweeping statement without thinking it through I get shot down :D It's making me a better scientist.

Very thoughtful and interesting post.  As WheresMyElephant pointed out, the trash vs. TFB is the more common way to classify these, but they're hardly the only useful way to classify them.  Since deck control is important, and deck size is important especially when you start greening, having a good sense of how these different cards affect deck size is helpful.

Cheers rinkworks :D

After playing a lot of Dark Ages I think I'll try and work on this idea some more. It's made me realise just how hard it is to make your deck smaller. Most of the time you don't want to give up on your buy for that turn so even cards that net you one less (Moneylender for example) keep your deck the same size on a turn.

I may re-arrange everything into the concept of "average deck quality". Cards that reduce your total size to increase average quality vs cards that increase your overall quality. Basically all of the trash for benefit cards sit somewhere in the middle of those two ideas.

79
They look awesome, but I can't help but think they're actually going to be a source of great frustration.

Meh, probably. But they don't come up often, and if you want a serious Dominion game where you can show off your skills shuffle in a different card.

I think Knight games (especially multiplayer games) will be a bit swingy but FREAKIN AWESOME! Deck building makes you love your own unique snowflake of a deck and Knights give it the chance to literally have something the other players dont. I also love the challenge of figuring out how to use my random edge to my advantage. Like making the most of ruins except more awesome.

80
Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: Best knight?
« on: August 16, 2012, 10:25:21 pm »
I don't think we can expect the Knights to last long in the deck, so the ones that confer some sort of lasting benefit will be better than the ones that don't. This makes Dame Natalie and Sir Vander more of a good idea than might at first be surmised. Also, Sir Michael will slow down the opponent a bit, which should be a good way to win a Knight-v-Knight slugfest.

This is true, actually. Also makes VP Knight kinda worst.

I was worried about Dame Josephine (Dame VP if you're not Donald) too, but then I remembered all of the benefits to the dual action/victory. Like the fact that she for reals combos with Scout and draws with Crossroads, counts for Silk Road, etc etc. And my favourite one, you can Rebuild her into a Province.

81
Dominion General Discussion / Re: No free promo cards at GenCon.
« on: August 16, 2012, 06:20:41 pm »
believe it or not I was hoping for mystic, wishing well is that much harder to pull of because you need to know the second card on Thor deck when you play pity. mystic is easier to pull of and has a lot of combos. love it!

82
Oh, and Count is a ridiculous 5/2 opening. Open Count, trash EVERYTHING, use the $3 to buy Silver, and continue on happily.

Nope. "Trash your hand" and "+$3" are mutually exclusive.
I meant trash down to 1 card (just Count) first, then use the $3 option. :)

Well, that's slow. If you have Count in hand with 4 cards you want to trash, you have to discard 2 of them, put one back on your deck, or gain a Copper. So you're really only removing 3 cards max per play. As Donald has said elsewhere, a Chapel that can only trash 3 cards is just much, much slower.

I'm not sure whether I'm not getting it or you guys?! You don't need to discard two cards in order to trash. So you may still trash 4 cards (well, if you choose to gain a copper).

If you gain a copper its basically like you only trashed 3 cards.

83
My initial thoughts on Count:

WHAT WAS DONALD SMOKING! Count has 9 options! 9! My housemate has enough AP when he plays a pawn.

My more measured later thoughts on Count:

I love this card. I love that all of the first set of options make the "trash your hand" option simultaneously better and worse! They slow Count down to being slower than Chapel in the early game, but in the middle game they help you protect your valuable cards.

I also love that this card has really strong alt-vp support. How many cards are you equally happy to buy when going gardens or an engine?

Basically when do I not want a Count?

While further thinking about Count on the bus home I've realised just how finely balanced Count is.

So the first set of options of meh options are there to perfectly balance the second set of awesome options.

+$3 is always awesome; discarding, top decking and copper gaining all slow it down.
"trash your hand"; super powerful at the beginning - discard, top deck and copper gain slow it down. Hard to set up during the mid-game; discard and top-deck help you keep your good cards safe.
"gain a duchy"; going for a duchy early seems like an alt-vp strategy, have a copper! Or maybe you've just started greening and hit $4, in that case top deck your best treasure for a better shot at province next turn.

84
Even more for Provinces: Just buy 3 Stashs and 2 Scavengers and sync the second Scavenger with the 3 Stashs every turn.

!

85
Scavenger/Stash FTW

Wow i hadn't thought about that. It's stronger than chancellor/stash because you can use the Scavenger to sync your 4 Stashes with a gold. After 4 Stashes and a Gold every Scavenger is a colony next turn.

86
My initial thoughts on Count:

WHAT WAS DONALD SMOKING! Count has 9 options! 9! My housemate has enough AP when he plays a pawn.

My more measured later thoughts on Count:

I love this card. I love that all of the first set of options make the "trash your hand" option simultaneously better and worse! They slow Count down to being slower than Chapel in the early game, but in the middle game they help you protect your valuable cards.

I also love that this card has really strong alt-vp support. How many cards are you equally happy to buy when going gardens or an engine?

Basically when do I not want a Count?


87
Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: Things we DIDN'T see in the previews
« on: August 15, 2012, 07:55:08 am »
It might also be a reaction to trashing a card

The reaction to trashing is a good idea, and fits thematically. Seems likely :) What would it do?

88
I'm really hoping to see some more attack cards in DA for Squire to aspire to.

I'm betting on a thief variant that gains you spoils

89
Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: Things we DIDN'T see in the previews
« on: August 15, 2012, 05:03:43 am »
And still expect to:
A treasure card that does something when trashed (dougz - I think it was him, maybe it was Donald - mentioned that there is a card in DA that makes it important that the cards actually hit the trash from thief; hmmm, but he also said that in practice, this won't matter, so maybe it is not this)

I really hope we do see this, it'd be a nice boost to Mine

90
The more I think about Hermit the more I think it has real power card potential.

The ability to trash from the discard means that it's the first trasher that doesn't need to be matched up with its targets, in fact it's better if they don't.

You could potentially use it as a Jack variant; gain a silver every turn, the better trashing should make up to some degree for the lack of sifting/draw. It'll be a lot better in engines than Jack, after you've got the engine parts you can literally go mad.

91
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Clasic_Cards #26 - Plaza
« on: August 15, 2012, 01:49:39 am »
Donald had said before that he always prices cards as cheap as they can feasibly be. So why can't it be $4? If you open with it you'll only ever use the sifting ability and not the super draw. The drawing feature seems frustratingly difficult to pull off in my mind, so I don't think I'd buy it at $5

92
Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: Observatory Village (Challenge 7 card)
« on: August 14, 2012, 03:24:56 am »
I had thought about $4, but the original card seemed too strong at $5 drawing $5, and I didn't want to make the same mistake again.

Donald always says that he makes cards as cheap as they can be. At first this card seems like it would not be too powerful if you opened with it (?), so it can afford to be a $4.

In fact surely a lot of the appeal would be in increasing the chance of playing your $3 card on turn 3? You could also use it to try and get $6 on turn 4 (moving your silver together with all of the coppers), trying to get a gold into the 2nd reshuffle, but doing so would completely tank your 3rd turn. An interesting card :)

93
OP, wouldn't Jester be a Jack as opposed to a Gainer, since you can choose who gets a copy of the revealed card (and if it's a victory card you don't gain anything)?

Woops, you're totally correct.

So, Farmland and Governor are Upgrading cards even though they do the same as Remodel? What you are try to differentiate is "Remodel"-type cards with and without the word "exactly", am I right? I agree that this makes a difference. But Rats has to be an Upgrader too then, because there is the possibility that there are no Rats available anymore. And even though this almost never happens, there might be edge-cases when even a up-to Remodel fails, for example if there are no Coppers and Silvers left, Mine fails too.

Farmland and Governor (thank you I missed that one) require and exactly $2 better card, and so don't do quite the same as remodel.

Also yes you're quite right; this is ignoring edge cases for the remodel style cards of running out the coppers and curses.

I agree with pretty much everything Qvist has said here, and I wonder at what you consider to be an edge case.  Running out of Rats doesn't seem like that much of an edge case to me, for example.  Trashing no cards with Forge is also an edge case, which would thus disqualify it from your definition for "Developer".

Also, shouldn't Transmute be a Develop by your definitions?  You can gain two cards with it by trashing Great Hall, Island, Nobles or Harem.

In general, looking at whether the card will leave you with more or fewer cards isn't that helpful.  I think Qvist's classes are much more useful.

Yeah I actually agree that Trash for Benefit vs Pure Trash is a very helpful way to think about these cards. I was just trying to look at things in a different sense. More about the trend of total cards in your deck vs the total quality. Basically you're always trying to make your deck better quality right? You can think about your average deck quality (q) as overall quality (Q) divided by the total number of cards (c) q=Q/c. Trashers reduce c thus improving q. Gainers increase Q, thus improving q. Remodels both reduce c and increase Q, thereby increasing q.

I find the middle ground cards interesting. The gainers and sometimes trash, and the trashers that sometimes gain. If you play a lot of Remakes for example your deck size is unlikely to stay exactly the same size, you'll trash some coppers permanently sending it down. So you should think of Remakes in a different category to Remodel. Hermit will gain you silvers, but it will sometimes let you trash; thus you should think of it differently to workshop (and similarly to Jack).

Also you're right about the edge cases. Pilling the rats is quite a common one. I'll need to rethink how I deal with that.

94
Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: Things we DIDN'T see in the previews
« on: August 13, 2012, 07:24:07 pm »
  • On that thought, imagine something like Salvager that "splits" your card. The wording is complicated, but "Trash a card from your hand. +$X, and gain a card costing up to $Y, where X+Y is the cost of the card trashed."

I love this idea, or a forge variant. Trash x number of cards, gain x cards of the same total value. You could trash two rats and get a copper and a province.

95
Oh man. I can't believe I missed on the card ranking for a second time! Big props to Qvist for organising it. I'll be here for when we do it including DA cards!

For my two cents

1. Hinterlands
2. Intrigue
3. Base
4. Prosperity
5. Cornucopia
6. Seaside
7. Alchemy

The ones in bold are the ones I actually own and thus play with the most. Prosperity and Seaside have some awesome cards, but on the whole I don't appreciate them as much.

96
My argument was that cards in the "Remodel" family don't let you end up with less cards, you're forced to gain something. Card in the "Upgrade" family (eg. remake) can either be net neutral or lose you a card/s. They're more flexible in that regard.

Technically, Rats will let you end up with less cards once Rats are piled out.  Transmute is similar if the Gold/Duchy/Transmute pile is gone when you Transmute the respective piles.

It can even happen with Remodel, though it would be really rare.  In a Kingdom where there are no $1 cards and Estate is the only $2, remodel a Curse or Copper when Curse, Copper and Estate piles are all empty.  Can happen in bigger games where the rule is 4 piles to end, or it could happen in a smaller game on the very last turn.

Yay edge cases!

Haha, you're right. A fantastic edge case though. We can ignore that one by assuming that all real dominion players never play with 5 or 6 :P

No, because it can still happen on the last turn in 2p!

! Of course it can. Even more edge. I love dominion fans, can't sneak anything past them :)

97
My argument was that cards in the "Remodel" family don't let you end up with less cards, you're forced to gain something. Card in the "Upgrade" family (eg. remake) can either be net neutral or lose you a card/s. They're more flexible in that regard.

Technically, Rats will let you end up with less cards once Rats are piled out.  Transmute is similar if the Gold/Duchy/Transmute pile is gone when you Transmute the respective piles.

It can even happen with Remodel, though it would be really rare.  In a Kingdom where there are no $1 cards and Estate is the only $2, remodel a Curse or Copper when Curse, Copper and Estate piles are all empty.  Can happen in bigger games where the rule is 4 piles to end, or it could happen in a smaller game on the very last turn.

Yay edge cases!

Haha, you're right. A fantastic edge case though. We can ignore that one by assuming that all real dominion players never play with 5 or 6 :P

98
So, Farmland and Governor are Upgrading cards even though they do the same as Remodel? What you are try to differentiate is "Remodel"-type cards with and without the word "exactly", am I right? I agree that this makes a difference. But Rats has to be an Upgrader too then, because there is the possibility that there are no Rats available anymore. And even though this almost never happens, there might be edge-cases when even a up-to Remodel fails, for example if there are no Coppers and Silvers left, Mine fails too.

Farmland and Governor (thank you I missed that one) require and exactly $2 better card, and so don't do quite the same as remodel.

Also yes you're quite right; this is ignoring edge cases for the remodel style cards of running out the coppers and curses.

99
I like your attempt to classify Trashers, but I do not agree on your classification.

Generally there are only 2 types of trashers, trash for and without benefit.
Trash for benefit cards where the benefit is another (better) card are the "Remodelers". But I cannot see any differentiation between your categories Remodeler and Upgrader.


The Remodel class of cards will never change the amount of cards in your deck, whereas the Upgrade class of cards have the potential to leave you with less cards in your deck. It was these kinds of interactions I was trying to describe.

100
I like your attempt to classify Trashers, but I do not agree on your classification.

Generally there are only 2 types of trashers, trash for and without benefit.
Trash for benefit cards where the benefit is another (better) card are the "Remodelers". But I cannot see any differentiation between your categories Remodeler and Upgrader.


I understand the well studied difference between plain Trashers and Trash for Benefit cards. My categories were an attempt to classify the differences in net subtraction/addition of cards to your deck. I will edit it in an attempt to make that clearer

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