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6701

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Four-player Mountebank: Estate rush?

« on: December 07, 2011, 01:24:18 am »

Yeah.  Generally isotropic though has tried to be pretty true to the source material, like with scheme-fishing village, so it seems like the powers that be would have it with double treasure.

6702

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Modding rules for boring Intrigue cards

« on: December 07, 2011, 01:22:29 am »

You'd break the spirit of the card less if you named the wish before the +card +action^

6703

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: How would Dominion look if it was designed as a computer game?

« on: December 07, 2011, 01:20:31 am »

olneyce I definitely understand where you're coming from.  Most "improvements" you come up with that would result from electronic conveniences would take dominion in a different overall direction.  If you look at the game as it is, pretty much every card is designed with physical limitations in mind, random stewards and maximum deck control and whatnot would feel foreign and make the game into a different animal.

But if the answer to the OP's question was "yeah.  A couple Philosopher's Stones and a point tracker." it's less interesting than pondering more radical changes that wouldn't necessarily be everyone's cup of tea.


I don't think the question really matters because making a game like Dominion as a pure electronic game isn't a great business model.  If the game is easily represented physically, the cost/benefits ratios dictate that you'll want to have a cardboard version of the game to make its own profits and garner interest, whether or not you have a computer game as well. 

Computers do get scary fast.  The closest way something along these lines would come to reality is a widespread Ipad app that people could lay down at a card shop to go toe to toe.  That'd be dependent on pretty saturated ownership of Ipad/Ipad style products but it would work pretty well.  I think there's miles of difference between that and sitting in front of eachother with laptops, as someone who has played games like MtG both online and in person I feel like eye contact and body gestures and such is large part of the appeal (though I do appreciate a piece of paper with nice art on it too)

Once Ipads get cheaper in ten years or so this question doubles in relevancy imo.  But in 2011 I think this discussion show that there is too little to be gained from fully electronic card-based games in terms of design flexibility to justify it.


This is probably ranty because I think about such things and have been designing a board game in my closet.  so.

6704

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: How would Dominion look if it was designed as a computer game?

« on: December 06, 2011, 10:07:14 pm »

And, perhaps most importantly, it could give you all the possible trashing combinations for when you play Forge! No longer will you have to add up every possible combination of cards from your hand, and then check the board to see what you get. Think of how much time will be saved! 

You don't want a list with the 2^(#cards in hand) possibility what to trash, each entry dublicated for (#how many cards you can gain for that price) times. What you perhaps could do is hover over a "target" and get a list of cards that could be forged to this target, excluding dublicates, likely excluding 0-cost cards. Which you must add by hand.

Also +1 for no autoplay on Village. There are so many situations where you don't want it, to add some to the list:
KC,TR
Trash for benefit
reshuffle
good cards left in your deck, but already enough value in the hand
Menangerie/HP
Bad cards on your deck (Spy et al) and Native Village/Lookout
Pearl Diver/Apothecary/Scout usually wants to be played before the first Village the first time, for the second one it depends on what you see
empty deck + Vault/SC

I think you're looking at this the wrong way.  Several of those situations are thoughtful, interesting decisions, yes.  Added together maybe they even add up to a tenth of the times you draw a village.  Maybe I'm off, maybe it's even 20%. But if the decision of whether to play a Village or not is removed, the time you would have spent deciding whether to play Villages vanishes.  You throw out the baby and the bathwater and you chunk out 100 decisions per hour, 20 of which were interesting.  That leftover time gets used somehow, and it's not going to get used for a slow animation where you watch the computer play your villages for you.  (they wouldn't even really be cards probably, instead they'd be randomly occuring +action "events" or +actions you've enchanted your coppers with or something I can't think of)

Instead of that time you would have been quickly making sure "yes, I ought to play the village", you'll be choosing between Remakes and Tournaments, Markets and Outposts, Silvers and Chancellors.  Those decisions are interesting at least half the time.  So overall you spend more of your time doing more interesting things.

I guess it would decrease the overall breadth of all possibilities, but Dominion already has enough that it'd take a lifetime to see it all so I don't think that's an issue..

6705

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Play this five card hand:

« on: December 06, 2011, 09:57:43 pm »

I'm going to pretend that those were the two choices I myself was considering as a form of image damage control.

Yes yes, Province Duchy is a very strong move, especially in Governor games where it is easy to force both players to buy Provinces each turn.

6706

Dominion Isotropic / Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?

« on: December 06, 2011, 09:37:41 pm »

That's not something to complain about really, depending on how he offered the criticism.  The game has plenty of luck, and suboptimal strategies win all the time.  Sometimes it's hard to say what's suboptimal and what's not, if it were never hard to say we probably wouldn't want to play Dominion.

I had an opponent open Fool's Gold, Fool's Gold on a Familiar board the other day, no trashing either iirc.  I remarked that his play was unusual, opened Silver/Potion, and went on to draw my potion with less than 3$ two or three consecutive times and lose.  I still think his play was bad.  He probably thinks it's good.  Unless I have a sketch of a mathematical proof to show him, I'm not going to argue about it, I'm going to agree to disagree.  But I don't have to concede all my opinions about the game because I lost.

6707

Dominion Isotropic / Re: Bug: Treasure auto-play/Loan/Grand Market

« on: December 06, 2011, 09:29:54 pm »

I was quite surprised that the autoplay limiter is even a feature on isotropic, so whenever I catch it a hair short of perfection I don't complain..

6708

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Four-player Mountebank: Estate rush?

« on: December 06, 2011, 09:28:17 pm »

Actually, isn't it actually you have as many basic treasures in the supply as everyone agrees to at the start of the game? It's just isotropic's implementation that has those numbers (which are based on the number included in with the game?)?
I'm not 100% here though, and I don't have my physical copy of the game and rules with me to check.

Hmm. The Intrigue rules say "The Treasure cards from Dominion and Dominion: Intrigue can be combined, since these cards are intended to be in abundant enough supply to not run out." So apparently it is at the players' discretion to use either 60 or 120 total Coppers in 2–4 player games, and this will have an effect on how four-player Mountebank games pan out.

Whoa.  Sounds like isotropic ought to double up on the treasures.  I've three piled the Golds in 2p using Tunnel.

I think I like the idea of unlimited treasure.

6709

Dominion General Discussion / Play this five card hand:

« on: December 06, 2011, 09:19:49 pm »

Governor, Gold, Gold, Silver, Copper. 

+3 cards is obviously not the answer unless you are very confident you'll hit a margrave.  But is Remodel or Gold gain better here?  If it depends, please explain.

If I totally failed at counting and one is obviouslly better, just say so and throw stuff at me.

6710

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Four-player Mountebank: Estate rush?

« on: December 06, 2011, 03:06:04 am »

Doesn't 4p have extra estates?  When they see you buying estates they can just hope that you won't be able to buy all sixteen and buy silver so they can get to Duchies.  Estates just aren't efficient enough I don't think.  It's $-VP innefficiency means that it takes very few reshuffles for Silvers to have more VP power than Estates.

6711

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: How would Dominion look if it was designed as a computer game?

« on: December 05, 2011, 10:29:02 pm »

That was hyperbole.  There would still be lots of choosing.  Just not on things like village.  More Steward decisions, less village decisions.

6712

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: How would Dominion look if it was designed as a computer game?

« on: December 05, 2011, 09:58:44 pm »

Kirian I'm thinking of if dominion were designed to be a computer game from the very start.  The solution to your problem would possibly be "Don't print Menagerie".  Envoy also is less interesting design space when you could be building single click engines and fighting eachother through automatic Moats.  Things get fast.

6713

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Modding rules for boring Intrigue cards

« on: December 05, 2011, 06:12:16 pm »

I think a better way to go with the Sab would be to make it much more powerful either in cost or effect but make it self trashing.

6714

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: How would Dominion look if it was designed as a computer game?

« on: December 05, 2011, 06:05:36 pm »

Sure, sometimes you don't play village because you might trigger a reshuffle.  But that depth is only tapped about 2% of all the times you ever play a village.  In a software implementation, you're better off making village a forced-play card.  The time saved by forcing the village to be played will be used making other decisions in a best out of 9 instead of a best out of seven.

6715

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: How would Dominion look if it was designed as a computer game?

« on: December 05, 2011, 05:43:32 pm »

most cards could have built in logic that autoplays the card

6716

2011 / Re: Schedule and Results: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Championships

« on: December 04, 2011, 04:11:48 pm »

pops 3-4 against glooble.  Gardens i think.

6717

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Exception to the rule, Part 3

« on: December 03, 2011, 01:32:10 pm »

I'd buy terminal silver over village in a heartbeat, but there wasn't any.  The board is here:
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111201-213133-bd2d0566.html

I didn't see it as that much of an advantage to race to the first Goons.  I tried to focus on a slim deck that would combo well once I did get some Goons to put into it.  Maybe an opening silver and nothing more would have been worth the clog.  But I'm stubborn.

6718

Dominion Isotropic / Re: Veto strategy

« on: December 02, 2011, 11:10:24 am »

I don't see how KC is any higher variance than something like Bank.  Or most powerful X/big money.

6719

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Exception to the rule, Part 3

« on: December 02, 2011, 11:09:08 am »

I opened village/potion in a Scrying Pool game that had Goons in it.  Is that legit?

6720

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Request for Volunteers to take part in Cognitive Science study

« on: December 02, 2011, 11:06:54 am »

he answered my email a tad slow and hasn't returned to this thread.

He did answer it eventually though. 

6721

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Royal Scepter - combining Golem and Throne Room

« on: December 02, 2011, 11:05:21 am »

The earlier version was overpowered anyway.  You buy four of them before the second reshuffle and you have 4 terminal golds in your deck already.  It gets worse from there.

6722

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Royal Scepter - combining Golem and Throne Room

« on: December 02, 2011, 12:07:00 am »

That might be balanced, but it's poor design.  It heavily discourages sprinkling and limits the card to chaining strategies.

6723

2011 / Re: Prize

« on: December 01, 2011, 10:05:29 pm »

I want a Princess 

6724

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Is border village a trap?

« on: November 29, 2011, 02:03:28 am »

Close inspection of dondon's post leads me to believe he's had a mental slip and thought the victim chooses the replacement card.  So maybe he doesn't disagree all that much.

6725

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: The Seven Deadly Sins - Mini-expansion concept

« on: November 29, 2011, 01:58:26 am »

The gardens example is the most useful one.  These cards all do novel things that you can do without putting them into a box and saying "these cards are allowed to hang out with eachother".  Making Dominion organic and flexible is important.  If you deliberately include things with strong synergy with eachother, pretty much all anyone will do is play your cards the way you set them up to be played.  Hypathetically you could find a balance point, but heavy synergy tends to put things in boxes very quickly.  There's enough synergy that you find in games just from mechanics dovetailing together, like when you figure out Horse Traders is good with Duke.  They're more gratifying to judge and interact with than canned interactions included by the designer saying "X goes with Y, and if X goes with Y you get a bonus".  Which is what all these cards are meant to do.  They are all very interdependent.  Hypathetically you might could find a way to get all seven of them used, but it would probably be nigh impossible to balance it out.

If you want to mess with curses, make Kingdom cards that care about the ten curses the game comes with.  If two of them flip up at the same time, cool, you can see how well they work and how worth it they are, like Silk Road with varying amounts of Kingdom VP support. 


At the very best, you'll create an alternate form of Dominion where Provinces, Duchies, and Estates will be replaced with various curse strategies.  It probably would be quite difficult to balance.  Then once it's balanced, you'll have accomplished very little you couldn't have done with a Gardens style card.