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Messages - Kirian

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8076
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Any downloadable deck generators?
« on: July 19, 2011, 10:01:11 pm »
Thirded, Dominion Shuffle for Android.

8077
This may be a crazy idea, but what about trashing one copper and turning one estate into a silver, instead of trashing 2 coppers or remaking 2 estates?

I started a whole long post, then realized that this has been summed up much better and more simply by rattenversammlung:

If anybody thinks that Silver keeps Remake from trashing fast enough, the only logical conclusion would be that he must prefer Remake/nothing over Remake/Silver.

Who will champion the idea that Remake/nothing is better than Remake/Silver?

8078
Remake doesn't care for perfect shuffle as much.

Agreed.

Quote
Chapel trashing 4 coppers is still the correct play, but it is inifinitely inferior to a triple estate chapeling

[insert Inigo Montoya picture here]  Inigo would like to have some words with you.  16 to be precise.

Are we making a case that remake is a better opener than chapel here?

A more difficult question, this, if we ignore "optimal shuffles."  Would you rather trash four coppers or two coppers?  Obviously the former.  Would you rather trash CCCE or trash a Copper and turn Estate into Silver?  Tougher call.  There's a table to be made here I'm sure.

Remake is by no means alone in the category of "deck thinners I'll take instead of Chapel": the Ambassador/Ambassador opening is not to be trifled with

Simulations show that Ambassador/Chapel is superior to double Ambassador.

8079
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: [Math] How many games and years?
« on: July 18, 2011, 06:52:29 pm »
It's probably appropriate to use the astronomical Julian year since after 180 billion of them let me tell you that our present calendar years will no longer have any significance in the universe.

New Card:

Heat Death
Action-Attack-Permanent, $8

Trash your hand, your deck, your discard pile, and all cards in play other than this one.  All of your opponents trash their hands, decks, and discard piles.
Take the Curse pile and deal any remaining Curses equally to all players, starting with yourself.
All card costs are increased by $10 for the remainder of the game.

----

In a thread about 180 GY of Dominion games, I think this fits...

8080
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Reducing the luck factor?
« on: July 18, 2011, 02:17:18 am »
As if these Sea Hag on your Sea Hag scenarios would come up very often. I am to lazy to calulate that, but it happens to me like 1 time in over 1,500 games.

The probability should be 1 in 12 to a first approximation, actually, at least for player 1.

If you mean 1 in 1500 games total (i.e. Sea Hag isn't available in most games), you've about a 1/15 chance of having Sea Hag available, so probability of SH discarding SH is 1 in 180 over all games.

8081
By the end of turn 6, Chapel had a deck of Chapel and 3 Silvers. By comparison, Remake had a deck of 3 Copper, 3 Estates, but 2 Silvers and a Gold. So, Remake has better buying power at the moment

No, it doesn't.  The Chapel deck has an average draw value (ADV) of 6; the Remake deck has an ADV of 5.  Next turn, Chapel deck has an ADV of 9 (it obviously buys a Gold).  The Remake deck has an ADV of 5.9 if it buys a gold, 7 if it converts two Estates to Silvers, 6.7 if Remake hits C/E.

Also, perfect shuffle luck gets either deck 6 on T4.  Chapel deck at T6 should be Chapel-GGSC with perfect luck (value 9 this turn, 11 next turn [trash C, buy G]); Remaking Coppers with perfect luck gets Remake-GGSCCCEEE (value 6.1 this turn, 7.5 next by Remaking Estates to Silvers).

Let's consider instead a Remake deck trashing Estates:

1/2: Silver/Remake
3: Rem-CEEE, trash EE, gain SS
4: SCCCC, buy G
5: Rem-SCCE, trash CE, gain S, buy S.
6: GSSCC, buy G or P.

Total deck after turn 6 is Rem-GSSSSSCCCCCC plus G or P.  ADV: 7.3 on T5, 7.9 on T6 if a 2nd Gold is bought.

So, we have:

ADV onChapel DeckRemake EstatesRemake Coppers
T577.34.4
T697.96.1
T7118.37.5



Two outstanding questions:  (1) What if you buy a second Remake instead of the Gold on T4?  Results won't really show until after T7.  (2) Which strategy is more resilient to bad shuffle luck?

8082
Dominion FAQ / Re: Dominion Lingo Dictionary
« on: July 16, 2011, 10:57:57 am »
Ok: here's a revised definition of a soft counter: a card that can respond to an attack or opponent's strategy with less than 100% effectiveness. Soft counters exist along a spectrum of effectiveness: for instance, a Wishing Well almost completely negates the attack of a Ghost Ship, but a Counting House is far from ideal against a Mountebank attack. The closer the counter gets to 100% effectiveness, the more "hard" it becomes (i.e., Moat is a hard counter to any attack).

What about a counter that is more than 100% effective?  Horse Traders vs. Minion gets you a 6-card hand.

8083
Dominion FAQ / Re: Dominion Lingo Dictionary
« on: July 16, 2011, 12:46:48 am »
To me, it's not so much a question of "hard counter" vs "soft counter."  There are simply counters, each of which do different things, some of which are more effective than others.  Some of those counters are also reactions; some aren't.

8084
Dominion Isotropic / Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« on: July 14, 2011, 01:17:56 am »
The important thing is the memories we're making.

Anyone else read that in GLaDOS's voice?

8085
Dominion FAQ / Re: Dominion Lingo Dictionary
« on: July 14, 2011, 12:41:36 am »
Latest updates are up.  A few things:

  • I've shied away from defining anything that's defined in the official rules, except where the term is also used a different way (e.g., trash).
  • I've also shied away from defining terms that are obvious from the rules and/or cards themselves.  For instance, "Terminal" is not obvious; "Curse-Giver" or "Curser" is based on the rules.
  • If I've left something out that you feel really ought to be in, please make your case!  I want to be inclusive without ending up with a crazy-long list.

Thanks to all who are participating here!

8086
Dominion FAQ / Re: Dominion Lingo Dictionary
« on: July 13, 2011, 05:29:40 pm »
(May a native speaker correct this, if necessary. ;))

I so often find myself reminding foreigners (especially Europeans) that their grasp of the English language is, 95% of the time, better than the average American's.

Then again, I've worked as a high school teacher.  The ways American high school students find to mangle the English language is indescribable to anyone who hasn't been there.

----

First post will be updated tonight!  Don't have much time right now, so expect somewhere in the midnight EST range.

8087
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: July 12, 2011, 08:21:13 pm »
The idea is to trigger a wild chain of Bonds/Debts/Loans/Ventures etc.

All you need are cards for Credit Default Swap, Subprime Mortgage, and Mortgage-Backed Security, and you can play Dominion: 2008 US Banking Collapse Edition.

8088
Game Reports / Re: Playing Ghost Ship on 15/20 turns after opening
« on: July 12, 2011, 05:19:53 pm »
Granting here that opening with Potion wasn't his greatest option (Quarry would have been much, much better, getting him a GS on T3), this is exactly like playing a 3/4 split vs. 5/2 for Mountebank or Witch at the opening.  I'd have resigned around T9-T10.

8089
This works at a live table as well.  BM specifically allows you to play any treasures you wish; once they are in play, they can't be discarded.

Note that if your hand is Tactician, BM, and all the rest treasure, you need to keep one treasure in hand; Tactician requires you to discard one card.  (I've done this.)

8090
Dominion FAQ / Re: Dominion Lingo Dictionary
« on: July 12, 2011, 03:16:16 pm »
Cantrip: Any card that gives +1 Card, +1 Action; it costs no action to spend it, and it replaces itself in the hand. It usually has some other benefit, but the end result is that you usually end up with the same number of cards in hand and the same number of actions while getting closer to a reshuffle. (Definition is disputed)

I bring that up because with the current definition, Laboratory, Warehouse, and City all would technically qualify as Cantrips.

The problem with this definition is that certain cards are conditionally cantrips.  Menagerie is a cantrip iff your hand has duplicates; Scrying Pool is a cantrip iff the top card of your deck (after choosing whether to discard) is not an action; etc.  I'll put a section specifically for various disputed definitions.

Any MTG players want to shed further light on this?

8091
Dominion FAQ / Re: Dominion Lingo Dictionary
« on: July 12, 2011, 01:02:51 pm »
Stickied.  Here's a couple more:

Thank you!!

Quote
Big Money: The strategy of buying nothing but Treasure and Victory cards.  Beats most beginners; loses to more advanced play.
Envoy-Big-Money/Smithy-Big-Money: Same as Big Money, except with a single Envoy or Smithy added.

I think standard strategies probably warrant their own thread, with more information about each.  What do you think?

8092
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Game logs behind Isotropic
« on: July 12, 2011, 12:31:03 pm »
More specifically: Could there be a standardised interface/notation for Dominion games (such as portable game notation for chess) so that councilroom.com could continue their amazing job (if rrenaud were interested in doing so). Maybe in the process we could even replay the games in some form, not only read the logs. That would be really great and for me personally much more important than for example an AI. I realize that this is a bit more complex than for chess, considering the cards, interactions and upcoming expansions.

Indeed, even without more expansions on the way, a simple notation in a game with powerful decks will get very complex for a standardized notation.  Some things might be easy:

12. Lab, Lab, SSE: Lab > Market, G; Lab > Festival, C; Market > Lab; Festival; Lab > GP; $14 > PG.

Easy enough to read, but each of those is a vanilla card.  Anything that requires interaction means one line per player; anything that creates weirdness means extra stuff.  We can add characters, so:

> for Draw, v for Trash, ^ for Gain, < for Discard (hey that's not so bad), and... hrm, _ for Top-Deck?  OK, so now let's parse a hand consisting of Lookout, Spy, Lab, KC, and Masquerade...

12P2. Spy, Lab, KC, Masq, Lookout: Spy > P, _ E; Lookout v E, < C, _ G; KC-Lab > GSCC, Lab, Masq; Lab > SS, Masq v C, ^ E, V E; Masq v C, ^ S, v C; $9 ^ KC.
    P3. Spy < G; Masq v C, ^ C; Masq v C, ^ C.
    P1. Spy _ E; Masq v E, ^ C; Masq v S, ^ C.

OK, actually, that's somewhat readable, though for someone not well-versed in the game, it's going to be really tough to read...

Quote
PS: This was a bit tough to write for me - hope I could express myself understandingly in the foreign language. I wasn't sure where to post this too, but decided the Isotropic and councilroom.com Sub Forums are too specific.

You did better than your average American internet user.

8093
Dominion FAQ / Dominion Lingo Dictionary
« on: July 12, 2011, 11:22:23 am »
Some wonderful person over in this thread suggested that Dominion lingo could take some getting used to, and that there were abbreviations etc. used that aren't immediately obvious to the novice coming to our board.  This thread is intended to remedy that.  I'll start with a few; as others post important definitions, I'll index them here at the top of the thread.

Mod Edit: The most up to date version of this list can be found on the DS.com Wiki.

Definitions:

Base: The original Dominion, with no expansions.  E.g., "In base, Chapel is the best early-game trasher."
Big Money:  Strictly speaking, a strategy where no Actions are bought at all, only Treasure and Victory.  In practice, often used to refer to a strategy emphasizing Treasure and Victory cards that is merely supplemented with one or two Actions.  Compare Engine.
Board (or Set, Table, or Tableau):  The set of cards that make up the game of interest.
Cantrip:  Any card that gives at least +1 Card, +1 Action; it costs no action to spend it and it replaces itself in the hand.  Can technically refer to Villages, but in practice usually refers to cards like Spy.
Chain:  A deck in which the same card(s) are played either multiple times per turn (or simply every turn for some powerful cards).  E.g., "Lab chain".
City Trap:  Purchasing multiple Cities in a game in which no piles (other than Province or Colony) are likely to be emptied; the Cities are very expensive Villages in this case.
Clog (or Bloat, Gum Up...): Add cards to a deck (preferably an opponent's) that interfere with the engine being used.  Often happens voluntarily in the endgame.
Colony Game:  Any game in which Colony and Platinum (from Prosperity) are available for purchase.
Counter:  A card that acts to neutralize another card (usually an attack), whether directly (e.g., Moat) or indirectly (e.g., Library vs. Militia/Goons).
Cycling:  To move quickly through your deck.  Chancellor provides an extreme example of cycling, but cards like Warehouse and Laboratory also cycle your deck effectively.
DoubleJack: A strategy involving buying only two copies of Jack of All Trades, and otherwise exclusively Treasure and Victory cards.
Draw Dead: Generally refers to drawing an Action card when you have no more Actions to play.  In context, may refer to drawing an Action card that cannot be effectively used (e.g., Baron without Estate, Moneylender without Copper).
Duchy Dancing: Towards the end of a game, when both players are buying Duchies and neither side is willing or able to take the final Province(s)
Early Game:  Most purchases are low-cost cards; players are defining their overall strategy.
Endgame (or Late Game):  Players are purchasing almost exclusively victory cards.  Often accompanied by jockeying with lower-value victory cards, e.g., PPR.
End on piles:  Force the game to end by emptying three or more piles (four or more with 5+ players). 
Engine:  Loosely defined, the Action cards that "drive" one's deck.  An "engine-based" strategy refers to a strategy emphasizing Actions.  Compare Big Money.
Envoy/Big Money: see Smithy/Big Money
Golden Deck: A deck designed to gain Victory tokens for multiple turns with just five cards.  The classic example is Bishop/Gold/Silver/Silver/Province, which trashes a Province for 5 VP and replaces it each turn.
Greening / "Go Green":  Begin purchasing victory cards.
Isotropic (or Iso)http://dominion.isotropic.org -- an exceedingly popular online implementation of Dominion, often linked to from these forums.
Level X City: A shorthand for referencing the power level of a City. Typically follows either a 1/2/3 or 0/1/2 (which references the number of empty piles) formatting.
Midgame:  Most purchases are actions or treasures of value $5 or higher, but rarely with hands above $6 (Province game) or $9 (Colony game); players are refining their strategies and attempting to tune their engines.
Mirror Match: When both players pursue identical or near-identical strategies
Non-Terminal (or Non-Terminal Action, sometimes NT):  Any action card that gives at least one additional Action.
Opening:  Purchases made on the first two turns.  Usually clarified by a 4/3 or 5/2 opening.
Piles: see “end on piles”
Province Game (rarely, Non-Colony Game):  A standard game in which Colony and Platinum are not available.
Pseudo-Trash:  Remove cards from your deck without trashing them, e.g., Island.
Sift:  Filter through your deck by drawing and discarding unwanted cards.  Similar to cycling, but with more finesse.  See, e.g., Warehouse.
Smithy / Big Money: A strategy involving one purchase of a Smithy and otherwise exclusively Treasure and Victory.  Reaches 4 Provinces in approximately 14 turns.
Split:  Treasure values of the first two hands (5/2 or 4/3).  Tournament and league play often gives players the same split.
Terminal (or Terminal Action):  Any action card that does not provide another Action when played.
Terminal clash: Drawing multiple terminal cards together, such that you can only play one of them
Terminal Silver:  Any terminal action that gives $2.
Three-Pile: See "End on Piles."
Top-Deck:  Place a card on top of your deck that would normally go elsewhere (e.g. Alchemist, Royal Seal).
Trasher (or Deck-thinner):  Any card that allows one to remove cards from one's deck.
Trash-for-Benefit:  Any card that gives a benefit at the cost of trashing a card.  Apprentice draws additional cards, Salvager gives cash, etc.
Village:  Besides the card of the same name, can refer to any card which gives +2 Actions; most (but not all) such cards have "Village" in their names.
Village Idiot:  Village seems like a great card to an inexperienced player, and it is good--but taking Villages without any terminals makes the Villages worthless.  Hence, Village Idiot.  More loosely, refers to any poor strategy that buys too many Actions.
Virtual +Buy: Cards like Ironworks and Workshop, which allow you to gain an additional card on your turn along with your ordinary Buy

Abbreviations:

C, S, G, E, D, P:  Sometimes used in game analyses for the basic treasure cards and basic victory cards.

Amb: Ambassador
BM: Big Money (rarely, Black Market, in context)
BMU: A particular algorithm for playing Big Money that intelligently purchases Duchies
BV: Border Village
CR: Council Room
CY: Courtyard
DXV: Donald X. Vaccarino
FG: Fool's Gold or Fairgrounds, depending on context
FV: Fishing Village (rarely, Farming Village, in context)
GM: Grand Market
Hag: Sea Hag
HoP: Horn of Plenty
HP: Hunting Party
HT: Horse Traders
IGG: Ill-Gotten Gains
IW: Ironworks
JoAT: Jack of All Trades (also often "Jack")
KC: King's Court
Masq: Masquerade
MV: Mining Village
NV: Native Village
OGE: Overgrown Estate
Lab: Laboratory
PPR: Penultimate Province Rule
SR: Silk Road
TFB / T4B: Trash-for-benefit
TM: Treasure Map
TR: Throne Room (rarely, Trade Route, in context)
UAS: Unstoppable Alchemist Stack
UCS: Unstoppable City Stack
YW: Young Witch

Common Forum References and In-Jokes:

Blue Dog: In this BGG post, DXV attempts to explain the interaction between Ironworks and Trader, using a strange analogy to a blue dog.  Not only does the blue dog confuse the issue, he later changes his mind about the ruling.
Marin (v.): Marin has a tendency to come from far behind using engines or strategies that were not obvious from the board, and in many cases are difficult to understand afterward.  To Marin someone is to win in this manner.
Rrenaud's Law: Any significantly long forum thread will inevitably discuss the FunSockets version of Dominion.  Has also been invoked to refer to people hearing about isotropic disappearing and then asking "OMG, Iso's going away? What?"
X Makes Scout Better! (and Scout is Overpowered/Awesome): It is common knowledge that Scout is one of the worst cards available for its price, and possibly any price.  Even those combos where it should shine don't show real improvement with Scout.  Any card that makes Scout better is... well, not getting much praise that way.

8094
Dominion General Discussion / Re: what is a terminal?
« on: July 12, 2011, 02:16:55 am »
It's easy to get lost in the lingo. I think every forum needs a dictionary to explain the commonly used terms.

That's actually a really good idea!  I think I'll go start a thread...

8095
Tournaments and Events / Re: DCGN?
« on: July 12, 2011, 02:15:15 am »
Just a bunch of people on isotropic with [DCGN] Dominion Tourney in their status line.  It looked like daylight rock was running something in chat.

8096
Tournaments and Events / DCGN?
« on: July 11, 2011, 09:12:12 pm »
Anyone know who's running this tournament?

8097
Game Reports / Re: Don't Fear the Pirate Ship
« on: July 11, 2011, 03:20:57 pm »
Pagin guided to thread 258... paging guided...

8098
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Easy trivia question
« on: July 10, 2011, 11:12:14 pm »
I stand corrected; though those do seem to follow exceptions rather than running with the "read the card" rule that is standard.  Interesting.

8099
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Easy trivia question
« on: July 10, 2011, 05:20:02 pm »
Embargo, Feast, and Island all have this property as well.  In all cases, the card has disappeared before the second action has taken place.

8100
Dominion Isotropic / Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« on: July 08, 2011, 02:40:28 pm »
Your mum/face jokes never get old.

That's what your mom said.

/OK childishness over, sorry.

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