6926
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Card name concordance quiz
« on: September 02, 2012, 06:36:40 pm »
Counting free morphemes is going a bit too far on the crazy scale, I think. How about actual words as printed?
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6927
Rules Questions / Re: Overgrown Estate & Market Sqare
« on: September 01, 2012, 05:21:42 pm »
Edit: And apparently I've been ninjaed by the man himself. I'll leave this here for posterity (because I think it would be correct given previous rulings, and because it took a long time to type out), but obviously it doesn't gainsay Donald's new ruling.
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The two effects can be triggered at the same time. However, in order for them to be triggered at the same time, they must actually be triggered at the same time--which means the MS has to be in hand at the time of trashing. Consider two cases.
First, this is what happens if MS is in your hand:
You use Chapel to trash the OE. Market Square is in hand, and you reveal and discard it. Two events have been triggered: drawing a card, and gaining a Gold. These effects both happen after the OE is trashed (though the trigger is initiated before. You may resolve those effects in either order. Therefore, if you also had a Watchtower in hand, you could resolve MS first, reveal WT in response, top-deck the Gold, then resolve the effect from OE, drawing the Gold.
This is what happens if MS is not in hand, but on top of your deck:
You use Chapel to trash OE. One event is triggered: draw a card. This happens after the trashing is complete. You draw the MS. The OE has already been trashed, so you cannot reveal and discard the newly-drawn MS; it has no trashing to react to.
In other words, the specific order of events in Case 1:
Hand: Chapel, Overgrown Estate, Watchtower, Market Square, Gold
Play card: Chapel.
Trigger Chapel action: trash OE.
Trigger On-trash event: draw a card.
Reveal and discard MS.
Trigger On-trash event: gain Gold.
All triggers have been pulled.
Trash OE.
Resolve all on-trash effects at the same time.
Choose one effect: Gain Gold.
Reveal Watchtower
Trigger on-gain event: choose to trash or top-deck.
All triggers have been pulled.
Gain Gold.
Choose: Top-deck Gold.
Second on-trash effect occurs: draw a card, which is the top-decked Gold.
All actions have been used.
Trigger: transition to Buy phase.
Begin buy phase. Hand: Watchtower, Gold, Gold.
Buy: Gold
Trigger: Gain Gold
Reveal Watchtower
Trigger On-gain effect: choose to trash or top-deck.
All triggers have been pulled
Gain Gold
Choose: Top-deck Gold
End of turn.
In case 2:
Hand: Chapel, Overgrown Estate, Watchtower, Silver, Gold. Card on top of deck is MS.
Play card: Chapel
Trigger Chapel action: trash OE
Trigger On-trash effect: draw a card
All triggers have been pulled.
Trash OE.
Draw a card (MS).
All actions have been used.
Trigger: transition to Buy phase.
Begin buy phase. Hand: Watchtower, Silver, Gold, Market Square
Buy: Silver
Trigger: Gain Silver
Reveal Watchtower
Trigger on-gain effect: Choose to trash or top-deck
All triggers have been pulled.
Gain Silver
Choose: trash Watchtower
Reveal and discard Market Square
Trigger on-trash effect: gain Gold
All triggers have been pulled
Trash Silver
Gain Gold
Reveal Watchtower
Trigger on-gain effect: choose to trash or top-deck Gold
All triggers have been pulled
Choose: top-deck Gold.
End of turn.
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My thought was this:
1. Both effects (drawing a card, and discarding the MS for gold) are both triggered by precisely the same exact event, the trashing of the OE.
The two effects can be triggered at the same time. However, in order for them to be triggered at the same time, they must actually be triggered at the same time--which means the MS has to be in hand at the time of trashing. Consider two cases.
First, this is what happens if MS is in your hand:
You use Chapel to trash the OE. Market Square is in hand, and you reveal and discard it. Two events have been triggered: drawing a card, and gaining a Gold. These effects both happen after the OE is trashed (though the trigger is initiated before. You may resolve those effects in either order. Therefore, if you also had a Watchtower in hand, you could resolve MS first, reveal WT in response, top-deck the Gold, then resolve the effect from OE, drawing the Gold.
This is what happens if MS is not in hand, but on top of your deck:
You use Chapel to trash OE. One event is triggered: draw a card. This happens after the trashing is complete. You draw the MS. The OE has already been trashed, so you cannot reveal and discard the newly-drawn MS; it has no trashing to react to.
In other words, the specific order of events in Case 1:
Hand: Chapel, Overgrown Estate, Watchtower, Market Square, Gold
Play card: Chapel.
Trigger Chapel action: trash OE.
Trigger On-trash event: draw a card.
Reveal and discard MS.
Trigger On-trash event: gain Gold.
All triggers have been pulled.
Trash OE.
Resolve all on-trash effects at the same time.
Choose one effect: Gain Gold.
Reveal Watchtower
Trigger on-gain event: choose to trash or top-deck.
All triggers have been pulled.
Gain Gold.
Choose: Top-deck Gold.
Second on-trash effect occurs: draw a card, which is the top-decked Gold.
All actions have been used.
Trigger: transition to Buy phase.
Begin buy phase. Hand: Watchtower, Gold, Gold.
Buy: Gold
Trigger: Gain Gold
Reveal Watchtower
Trigger On-gain effect: choose to trash or top-deck.
All triggers have been pulled
Gain Gold
Choose: Top-deck Gold
End of turn.
In case 2:
Hand: Chapel, Overgrown Estate, Watchtower, Silver, Gold. Card on top of deck is MS.
Play card: Chapel
Trigger Chapel action: trash OE
Trigger On-trash effect: draw a card
All triggers have been pulled.
Trash OE.
Draw a card (MS).
All actions have been used.
Trigger: transition to Buy phase.
Begin buy phase. Hand: Watchtower, Silver, Gold, Market Square
Buy: Silver
Trigger: Gain Silver
Reveal Watchtower
Trigger on-gain effect: Choose to trash or top-deck
All triggers have been pulled.
Gain Silver
Choose: trash Watchtower
Reveal and discard Market Square
Trigger on-trash effect: gain Gold
All triggers have been pulled
Trash Silver
Gain Gold
Reveal Watchtower
Trigger on-gain effect: choose to trash or top-deck Gold
All triggers have been pulled
Choose: top-deck Gold.
End of turn.
6928
Rules Questions / Re: Overgrown Estate & Market Sqare
« on: September 01, 2012, 04:04:40 pm »But MS reacts to trashing whereas HT reacts to attack being played. I would think OE resolves first.
OE isn't a reaction, it's a when-trashed ability; reactions happen before everything else resolves. Therefore the order must be either:
Trash OE
Reaction: Reveal and discard Market Square (already in hand)
Reaction: Gain Gold
OE ability: Draw a card
or
Trash OE
OE Ability: Draw card (that happens to be Market Square)
Be sad that you can't reveal the card you just drew.
6929
Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: Forge trashing
« on: September 01, 2012, 04:00:01 pm »Thanks for the reply. Even before Dark Ages a number of the Goko beta testers had suggested a staging area where you could select cards to trash (forge, trading post) or discard (vault) before an action was executed. It now seems necessary rather than a helpful feature.
It would be helpful, though technically not necessary. Forge works properly with Cultist and Fortress (just checked).
6930
Rules Questions / Re: Counterfeit, copper, & Grand Market
« on: September 01, 2012, 02:32:48 pm »
I believe you're correct.
6931
Game Reports / Re: You dawg I heard you like Smugglers...
« on: September 01, 2012, 04:21:53 am »Is there something I'm not understanding about Smugglers? I don't think I've ever seen anyone else attempt to mass it...
Well, here it was the bane for Young Witch. However, GI had just gotten his first Province in a game that was oging to be very, very low-scoring. So he was trying to empty the pile more than anything.
6932
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Giving ruins over curses
« on: August 31, 2012, 08:47:00 pm »Long shot: he has Ambassador. You still want to give him junk but you're worried about that Curse flying back at you. You would be OK with getting the Ruin.
Not such a long shot because the odds of them actually being able to return it is only 1/5!
Not true! He can always return it. But a point in favour is that if you do it twice, it's less likely he could return both at once.
The weird rule you're thinking of is that, with more than 2p, returning Ruins with Amb might not cause all other players to receive ruins. The player to your left would get the one you returned to the supply, but the next player would only get Ruins if the next one on top is the same one that you returned.
Weird, is that actually the correct ruling?
6933
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Making Thief Trashing Optional
« on: August 31, 2012, 08:16:30 pm »<sarcasm> Just play with Noble Brigand instead of Thief, problem solved.</sarcasm>
I actually came here to say this without sarcasm.
6934
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Let's talk about Count
« on: August 31, 2012, 08:12:50 pm »
In a recent game against the AI, I grabbed a Count as my first $5, used in twice to topdeck on and trash three, used it once for the $3, then sacrificed it to Salvager.
6935
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: August 31, 2012, 04:25:21 pm »
Hey, I'd love to complain on the Goko forums. And I bet fixing the password reset system for the beta forum is right at the top of their list of things to do.
Of course, that's why I set up a thread here.
6936
Game Reports / Re: Anti-Ambassador Counter Lemonade Stand
« on: August 31, 2012, 02:11:31 pm »Repeated so many times, yet it's still freaking hilarious (how the hell did they manage to do even better than the cake jokes?)
I think getting JK Simmons to do the voice was the big thing. He just brought a very specific feel to the character--and I find the fact that he refused to read certain lines due to their context to be quite awesome. A different voice actor just wouldn't have been the same, I think. He and Ellen McLain may have delivered the best voice acting ever for a video game. (OK, Stephen Merchant did all right too.)
6937
Game Reports / Re: Anti-Ambassador Counter Lemonade Stand
« on: August 31, 2012, 01:31:09 pm »i could go for some good ping pong discussion.
http://weschao.blogspot.com/2011/06/never-turn-it-off.html
http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/06/26 and the next six comics or so.
I made the early decision to use the available tools to turn lemons into lemonade.
"When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back! Get mad! I don't want your damn lemons, what the hell am I supposed to do with these?"
6938
Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #13: One-Shot Card!
« on: August 31, 2012, 01:19:54 pm »I have a surprising number of good seeming ideas for this contest. I wish I could submit two cards! Part of the issue is that a more complex card may be the better card, but might not be as favorable to the voters. I'll have to make up my mind soon!This is something I have been bitching about. Possession or Goons could never win this contest.
Goons isn't any more complex than Crystal Ball or Pawn Shop. That said, with 40+ entries per week, judging something this ten lines of text and a support card is... going to be a tough sell.
6939
Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: The Contest Set Card List
« on: August 31, 2012, 02:54:21 am »
OK. The hell has been photoshopped out of what I posted. I don't like embedding huge images, so here's just the link.
http://invirtuo.cc/img/Amulet.png
http://invirtuo.cc/img/Amulet.png
6940
Rules Questions / Re: Counterfeit Questions
« on: August 30, 2012, 09:54:29 pm »2x Inn, Watchtower, Menagerie, Laboratory, Mandarin, Silver in play. In hand: 2x Counterfeit, 2x HOP
Play Counterfeit
--Play Counterfeit #2
--Play HOP: Gain Mandarin. Silver, both Counterfeits, and the HOP return to the top of the deck.
--Play (virtual) HOP: Gain Inn, shuffle deck.
--Game cannot find HOP for Counterfeit #2 to trash.
--Play (virtual) Counterfeit #2
--Play HOP #2: Gain Mandarin. HOP returns to top of deck.
--Play (virtual) HOP #2: Gain Duchy. Game cannot find HOP that would trash itself.
--Game cannot find HOP for Counterfeit #2 to trash.
--Game cannot find Counterfeit #2 for Counterfeit #1 to trash.
Buy Province. Actions are discarded.
It's a bit ridiculous, but yeah, I think that can really be the only ruling...
Seems right, except how could you afford a Province? Didn't you only produce $3? Maybe you meant to play the Silver first, but you're still $3 short.
Mandarin and Silver are already in play ($5 on the table)
6941
Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #12: Non-Terminal Draw!
« on: August 30, 2012, 10:46:06 am »Related:
http://reasoningwithvampires.tumblr.com/
Wherein a learned reader works her way through the series, snarking and critiquing both (lack of) style and content.
Also of note: Mark Reads Twilight:
http://markreads.net/reviews/2010/11/complete-mark-reads-twilight-archive/
(And as far as content/style goes, Twilight still trumps Pride and Prejudice and Zombies, as well as Fifty Shades, and--yes, it now exists, Pride and Prejudice crossed with Fifty Shades (I don't know the name).)
6942
Game Reports / Re: In which I ignore both Ambassador *and* scrying pool
« on: August 30, 2012, 09:20:24 am »
Yeah, with no Villages to play all those actions from SP, it's not that great. Meanwhile an opponent's Amb enables your Gardens, and HT/Duke is a powerhouse combo. I think you made by far the right call.
6943
Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #12: Non-Terminal Draw!
« on: August 30, 2012, 01:53:51 am »Wow... quite happy with 5th, especially considering my card's closest cousin (Conference Room) tied for first. Congrats to the winners.
My wife, Bella Cullen, appreciates the comments on her creatively-named card (Oracleplusactionminusattack). She worked on that name for days!
I now have nopawnsintended labeled as "creepy 150-year old sparkly vampire."
I now have Kirian labelled as a 13-year old girl.
(I considered making a similar joke.)
I'm not sure 13-year-old girls would be willing to call whats-his-name "creepy." Also don't forget that far too many of the readers were 30-somethings who read it because... I don't know, they have no taste in literature?
6944
Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #13: One-Shot Card!
« on: August 29, 2012, 11:06:13 pm »Could the card trash/return/set-aside itself on gain/buy rather than on play?
"This is a card that trashes itself, returns itself to its pile, or sets itself aside permanently when played. The card must always do this when played."
I think it's pretty clear. It could probably have an on-trash ability (like Cultist does) as long as its main section includes "trash this card" and doesn't include "gain a copy of this card."
6945
Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« on: August 29, 2012, 08:43:14 pm »I think this entire thread needs to be made more complicated by replacing all talk of Throne Room with Band of Misfits as Throne Room.
OK, so I play BoM as a Procession, then BoM as a Throne Room, then BoM as a Feast. Go!
6946
GokoDom / Re: IsoDom 5: Semi-finals Thread
« on: August 29, 2012, 07:55:14 pm »
I'd completely forgotten about BO5 vs. BO7. Since I didn't make it clear here, semis will be BO5, finals BO7. My apologies.
Results due ASAP, preferably by the end of this weekend.
Results due ASAP, preferably by the end of this weekend.
6947
Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #12: Non-Terminal Draw!
« on: August 29, 2012, 07:12:00 pm »Wow... quite happy with 5th, especially considering my card's closest cousin (Conference Room) tied for first. Congrats to the winners.
My wife, Bella Cullen, appreciates the comments on her creatively-named card (Oracleplusactionminusattack). She worked on that name for days!
I now have nopawnsintended labeled as "creepy 150-year old sparkly vampire."
6948
Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: The Contest Set Card List
« on: August 29, 2012, 03:17:03 pm »
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/Talisman_de_Charlemagne_Tau.jpg
For amulet? I can probably 'shop it into something more like a painting.
For amulet? I can probably 'shop it into something more like a painting.
6949
GokoDom / Re: IsoDom 5: Semi-finals Thread
« on: August 29, 2012, 02:34:36 pm »
OK, all semifinal matchups are now posted at their normal place. Good luck to all!
6950
Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #13: One-Shot Card!
« on: August 28, 2012, 08:59:14 am »Something worth noting about the one shots that already exist is that they all have effects that linger for the rest of the game. Feast permanently gets you a $5 card that you wouldn't otherwise have without gaining that feast, Treasure map gives you 4 golds. Embargo affects what you can buy for the rest of the game. Island comes back later. The only exception is Pillage, but between its deadly attack and the 2 (admittedly self trashing) cards it gains its effect can be felt for some time after it's used. I don't think a card that's something like "Trash this card. +5 cards" would go down well.
Why not? It would be a newish mechanic that might be interesting. Also, Madman, while not technically qualifying for this, is a one-shot that doubles your hand size.