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1401

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Cantrip - Trasher

« on: January 08, 2016, 03:27:48 pm »

The similarity is large enough to claim though that a cantrip trasher has to cost at least 4$ (and I am in the minority here, most people claim that 5$ is the appropriate price; what is evident though is that you have to test it at at least 4$; 3$ or 2$ is definitely too cheap)

I disagree; this should either cost $5 or cost $2, for the same reasons Chapel costs $2. Having either universal availability (costs $2) or having standard difficult availability (costs $5) seems to be the way to balance a card with this powerful of a trashing effect.

As I already said, a non-mandatory cantrip trasher can never cost 2$ as it is far too similar to Upgrade and Junk Dealer.

And Ratcatcher.

Ratcatcher's waiting does NOT make it stronger. It makes it way weaker. It's not like Royal Carriage at all. Royal Carriage can be played and called in the same turn, meaning you can use it every turn. Ratcatcher's waiting is more like how Durations work. Durations are weaker than they would be normally because it is impossible to play them every turn, and they miss the shuffle twice as often. Ratcatcher is the same. Ratcatcher's reserve effect is a nerf, in the same way that Teacher's reserve effect is. It slows it down.

Except that with Teacher, you almost always want to call it ASAP, whereas with Ratcatcher, you can just wait for a hand to come where you want to trash a card. I disagree and I think that the pros and cons cancel each other out.

1402

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 13)

« on: January 07, 2016, 10:18:28 am »

No, because it says "up to".

Ruins, costing $0, are Action cards costing up to $1, so you'll have to gain one of them.

Ah, I see.

1403

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 13)

« on: January 07, 2016, 09:49:05 am »

Some Card - Action / Reaction - $5

+1<VP>
Trash a card from your hand.
+<VP> equal to half the number of differently named cards in the trash, rounded down. <-- This wording is a bit awkward
You may spend any number of <VP>. +1 Action per <VP> spent this way.

Still needs to gain, though. I do wonder if adding "gain a card costing the same as the trashed card" would keep it about the same power-level. It would make it much weaker as as a trasher, being unable to get rid of Coppers. But it would make it stronger in that you could get more cards into the trash without losing good cards from your deck.

Fixed some things, my below the line stays the same, my above the line becomes:

• No more extra VP tokens per card in trash, that was weird, instead...
• Gain an action card with cost per differently named card in trash, so having trashed Estate and Copper can get you a Hamlet and with one more you can already gain $3 cards; note that you can freely trash the first card if there are no Poor Houses or Ruins in play

+1<VP>
Trash a card from your hand, gain an Action card costing up to $1 per differently named card in the trash.
You may spend any number of <VP>. +1 Action per <VP> spent this way.

Ruins don't cost $1. Poor Houses are the only case where you can't freely trash the first card with this.

1404

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Fan Expansion - Warlords and Wizards

« on: January 07, 2016, 09:45:51 am »

I still disagree, but now it's two votes against one. Maybe I need to hit the books harder. Can anyone point me in the correct direction?

Here's an example that uses similar logic:
Say somebody gives you a curse that states that "whenever you would eat a cookie, you must instead eat 2." So, you decide to eat a cookie. You would eat a cookie, but you must instead eat 2. Each time you would eat one of those cookies, however, you would eat a cookie, but you must instead eat 2. Each time you would eat one of those cookies, you would eat a cookie, and therefore must instead eat 2, ad infinitum.

^This works for the same reason as Enchantment: You start a repetition loop, but the conditions for repeating are always satisfied. In other words, you didn't close the loop. Here's a couple different wordings for Enchantment that work:

Enchantment:
Move your Enchantment token to an Action Supply pile. When you play a card from that pile, resolve it twice.
Cost: $5P
Event
^Works the exact way you want it to.

Enchantment
Move your Enchantment token to an Action Supply pile. When you play a card from that pile from your hand, play it again immediately after resolving it.
Cost: $5P
Event
^Doesn't quite work the way you want it to, because then it doesn't work the same way with the various Throne Room variants.

By the way, I would give it a cost limit (I recommend $4) because Enchanting Possession, which costs strictly more than it, is stupidly powerful.

1405

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 13)

« on: January 06, 2016, 06:41:22 pm »

I wanted to submit a card, but put off thinking about it till today. So I didn't think about it much, and it turned out silly. oh well.

Hogwash
If your Hogwash Mat is empty, +1 Card, +1 Action.
Reveal the top card of your deck. Trash it, discard it, or put it back. If you trashed it, play a card from your Hogwash mat. If there is still at least one card on your Hogwash mat, +$3.
-
When any player gains an action card, you may set this aside. If you do, put a copy of the gained card from the supply onto your Hogwash mat and play this at the start of your next turn.

(I originally called it Gee Wiz, but then I noticed we were on H.)

This can't gain, though, which is one of the criteria.

And as for a generalization of my card:

Generalized Epsilon:
You may play an Action card from your hand. If you do, trash it, then gain an Action card costing exactly $X more than it, playing it.
Cost: $5/$6

Note that the original version should also be able to only gain Actions, which I accidentally left out.

1406

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 13)

« on: January 06, 2016, 03:02:04 pm »

Gamma - $5
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing up to $2 more. If it is an,
action card, +2 actions
treasure card, +$2
victory card, +2 cards

Ironworks/Remodel hybrid.

It needs to clarify whether "it" refers to the gained card or the trashed card. I'm unsure which you meant currently.

1407

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Fan Expansion - Warlords and Wizards

« on: January 05, 2016, 06:21:48 pm »

Sir Robin should totally run away.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought of that.

1408

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Fan Expansion - Warlords and Wizards

« on: January 05, 2016, 02:06:53 am »

As worded, Enchantment lets you play a card infinite times:

Enchantment:
Move your Enchantment token to an Action Supply pile (when you play a card from that pile, instead play it twice).
Cost: $5P
Event

So I put the E-token on Market. I play a Market. I played it, so instead I play it twice. I played it twice, so I instead play it four times. I played it 4 times, so I instead play it 8 times, ad infinitum.

1409

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 13)

« on: January 03, 2016, 11:32:47 pm »

Wow, I am fully supporting Epsilon - simple and interesting.

Thanks, I'm glad you like that one!

1410

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 13)

« on: January 03, 2016, 11:16:12 pm »

I initially sent it as a PM, but here's mine:

Epsilon:
You may play an Action card from your hand. If you do, trash it, then gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, playing it.
Cost: $5/$6

No reaction yet because Gendo said in the OP that we're doing top-half and bottom-half separately.

Ok, I'll take a shot. Feel free to bash this, suggest changes, or ignore it.

[Alfa] Action/Reaction $5

Trash a card from your hand. Gain an Action card costing up to $3 more than the trashed card.

If the gained card costs $4 or less, +1 Action.
--------------
When a player (including you) gains an Action card, you may discard this from your hand, to gain an Action card costing up to $1 less than the gained card.

**************

This is obviously a hybrid of Ironworks and of Graverobber's Remodel function, with a weak Smuggler-type reaction. Don't know if it's strong enough. Should the Remodel part only allow cards costing $2 more than the trashed card?

PS. I named it Alfa so that we can keep track of the suggestions; the next suggestion can be Bravo, then Charlie, etc.

I feel like this is stronger than Expand at less cost.

I thought so, too, but I just now realized after rereading it that it can only gain Actions.

1411

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 13)

« on: January 02, 2016, 08:36:32 pm »

The Action half of the card could be 100% terminal, and the Reaction could be/include "you may play this from your hand". Sometimes terminal, sometimes non-terminal.

Gendo said that his intention was that the optional non-terminalness would be related to the top half:

Maybe the sometimes non-terminal-ness could relate to the reaction? Not sure how it would work, but sure, I'll vote special.

Well it can definitely relate, but my intention was that it's specifically sometimes non-terminal when played. So this would count as fully terminal, not "special":

Special Moat

+2 cards
------------------------
When you draw a card, you may discard this. If you do, +2 actions.

I guess that could count, though.

1412

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 12)

« on: January 02, 2016, 11:41:20 am »

When are you going to post part 13?

1413

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Deadly Duo: Ringleader and Cronies

« on: January 01, 2016, 11:43:14 am »

Maybe I'm not understanding something, but what does 'Choose any number of players' even mean?'

Your standard attack is something along the lines of 'Each other player suffers X effect' (e.g. Witch) or 'Each other player who meets X condition suffers Y effect (e.g. Minion).

But if my opponents are Alice, Bob, and Carl, and I 'choose one,' does that mean I can choose Carl, even if he happens to be the leader or I have a non-Dominion-related grudge against him? Or can I choose Carl and Alice, because I personally hate them but personally like Bob?

If it helps, Spy could have just as easily have been worded:

"Each player reveals the top card of their deck. Choose any number of players. The chosen players discard the top card of their deck."

True, but the effect is less/lower.

How? As far as I can tell, it does the exact same thing.

1414

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Deadly Duo: Ringleader and Cronies

« on: December 31, 2015, 04:50:13 pm »

Maybe I'm not understanding something, but what does 'Choose any number of players' even mean?'

Your standard attack is something along the lines of 'Each other player suffers X effect' (e.g. Witch) or 'Each other player who meets X condition suffers Y effect (e.g. Minion).

But if my opponents are Alice, Bob, and Carl, and I 'choose one,' does that mean I can choose Carl, even if he happens to be the leader or I have a non-Dominion-related grudge against him? Or can I choose Carl and Alice, because I personally hate them but personally like Bob?

Well, you can do all of those things, but my intention is that people would use it to attack people who they know have good hands and ignore those who they know have bad hands.

1415

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Help Me Name This: [Leader] and Cronies

« on: December 31, 2015, 10:09:01 am »

This is pretty much the definition of the kind of 'political' attack that DXV deplores. Any reason you're departing from common wisdom?

The attack is not political as you can choose several players. You will only make them discard their hands if they either have 4/5 cards (and rarely when they have less) or when you have some info about their hand due to Cronies, Spy, Scrying Pool or whatever and the hand they do have is good.

Not that anything would be wrong if the attack were political (just because Donald X thinks so doesn't mean that a fan card does have to obey this narrow design principle). Games with political components do make it easier to hurt the leader which punishes skill but makes the game more attractive to inexperienced newcomers.
So whether a political component in a game is an asset or a liability partially depends on your gaming group (whether it is static or dynamic).

I know I'm being a devil's advocate here, but I usually try to follow the same design principles that Donald X does.

1416

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Help Me Name This: [Leader] and Cronies

« on: December 31, 2015, 01:55:24 am »

This is pretty much the definition of the kind of 'political' attack that DXV deplores. Any reason you're departing from common wisdom?

Also, probably the Cronies, being villages, will enable the leader, rather than the reverse, which thematically is odd.

But as for a name, probably the best Leader for some cronies is a Boss.

2) I guess I could switch their effects, if you think that makes more sense thematically.

1) I guess I could change it to "you may have each other player discard his hand. Each player who does draws 4 cards," to make it less political.

1417

Variants and Fan Cards / Deadly Duo: Ringleader and Cronies

« on: December 31, 2015, 01:11:54 am »

I'm probably not going to change the name of Cronies, but I need a better name than the current "Leader." Anyway, here are the two cards!

Ringleader:
+$2
Choose any number of the other players. The chosen players discard their hands and draw 4 cards.
When you gain this, gain a Cronies from the Cronies pile.
Cost: $5
Action - Attack

Cronies:
+1 Card
+2 Actions
Each other player reveals his hand. (This is not in the Supply)
Cost:$0*
Action - Attack

So the Cronies help you make a more informed decision about whose hands to discard and whose to let them keep. Of course, to make them more useful, Cronies also act as Villages.

EDIT: GeeJo came up with a better name for what is now Ringleader.

1418

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 12)

« on: December 28, 2015, 06:05:05 pm »

I put $5 simply because we don't have any reactions at that price point.

Same.

1419

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 11)

« on: December 23, 2015, 02:11:30 pm »

Ok so once again we had a very close vote. Does our card allow us to trash and gain, or only gain? I'll leave this up until Sunday because Christmas and stuff.

Does Altar count as remodeling (it trashes a card and gains a card, but the cost of the gained card is independent of the trashed card)?

1420

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Holy Order

« on: December 21, 2015, 10:53:29 am »

Templar needs to say "each other player reveals all cards in their discard pile and shuffles..." lest there's no way for other players to trace how many Victory cards there are in other players' discard piles. Even without that phrase, this card is going to be very slow (thus annoying) to resolve.

Similarly, Sacrament needs to say "Reveal and discard any number of cards from your hand" because otherwise you could discard multiple cards at once without other players being able to see each one individually. At least I think that's how it would work.

You are correct about both points.

1421

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Holy Order

« on: December 20, 2015, 11:37:04 pm »

I think you left out the "Hex" typing at the bottom of Penance.

Also a major problem with Shrine: If Fortress is in the Supply, Shrine can play it an infinite number of times, as you play it twice, trash it, put it back into your hand because of Fortress' on-trash effect, ad infinitum. Normally I ignore broken combos like that, but omnipotent combos are an exception (now, normally, it's pointless playing it more after you've drawn your deck, but if you used Training and/or Seaway and/or have a Diadem in your deck, it's an omnipotent combo and means you've won, really easily. Especially with that last one, since you'd be the only one able to accomplish it).

Also, Templar. It's a double-lab for $5, with the drawback that it gets discarded after you shuffle, which might be balanced, since you'd only get to play it every other cycle. The problem with it is, it can't really be an Attack because the attack doesn't trigger on-play, it triggers when you call it. Also, it's confusing when you shuffle and then attack in the middle of someone else's turn because of a card like Spy or something. Other than that, it's fine. I certainly wouldn't buff it to +4 Cards and an Action.

P.S.: +Cards comes BEFORE +Actions, not after it. You made that mistake on your Traveller Nun, as well.

Thanks for the thoughtful comments. Good eye on the missing Hex and misordered +Cards/+Action. I'll fix that.

The intention of "until you trash it" was to mean that up to the minute you trash it, but not when you trash it, it is that card. But looking back to the BoM FAQ this does seem to be a problem.

Note that when Band of Misfits is discarded or trashed from play, doing so activates the when-discarded or when-trashed abilities of the card it was imitating, even though once you discard or trash it the card is back to being a Band of Misfits again.

So I welcome phrasing ideas to get the proper effect.

I'll mull over the thoughts on Templar. The Shuffle-Attack thing does require some addressing.

How about this:

Shrine:
Play this twice as if it were an Action card in the Supply costing less than this. Put this into the trash pile. This is that card until it is removed from play.
Cost: $5
Action

Putting it into the trash is not the same as trashing it, so as you intended, trashing it will not activate on-trash effects.

1422

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Holy Order

« on: December 20, 2015, 10:20:42 pm »

A one-shot Throne-Roomed Band of Misfits acting as the same action card both times.


A sort of counterpart to Coin of the Realm. Can be called at the start of your turn to draw cards. The number of cards drawn depends on the number of Holy Vestments on the Tavern mat. You need 2 for it to be effective at all, and most of the time you won't want to start using it until you've got 3 or 4.


A simple discard for $ card. If the card drawn from it is a "dead" Action, no matter!


Another Hex. A fairly low-risk negative VP, so long as you don't have too many colliding terminals or buy it too late. As soon as you can play it, you can trash it for VP.


A Smithy that gives you some value for drawing a dead VP card. Original version had +1 VP per differently named VP, but I think that was a bit much. Not sure that it's powerful enough to warrant the on-gain qualification; I'll probably scrap that.


Collection Plate seeks out and duplicates a decent treasure card, leaving it on top of your deck. Gaining a Charity Plate gives opponents a Charity, essentially an unstackable Silver than can be exchanged for a better Treasure down the road.


I ran a test game with Templar earlier. The top half is probably a bit weak, and maybe should be +1 Action, +4 Cards. You only get to use it once every other shuffle, after all. The Attack's strength depends somewhat on the other player's deck cycle and what stage they're at. It's a good way to slow down a player deep into Greening. This can sometimes lead to a pinned hand, but not without remedy. I also had Holy See in the kingdom, and that proved a formidable counterpoint to Templar, putting a bunch of Golds and Silvers back into the mix.

I think you left out the "Hex" typing at the bottom of Penance.

Also a major problem with Shrine: If Fortress is in the Supply, Shrine can play it an infinite number of times, as you play it twice, trash it, put it back into your hand because of Fortress' on-trash effect, ad infinitum. Normally I ignore broken combos like that, but omnipotent combos are an exception (now, normally, it's pointless playing it more after you've drawn your deck, but if you used Training and/or Seaway and/or have a Diadem in your deck, it's an omnipotent combo and means you've won, really easily. Especially with that last one, since you'd be the only one able to accomplish it).

Also, Templar. It's a double-lab for $5, with the drawback that it gets discarded after you shuffle, which might be balanced, since you'd only get to play it every other cycle. The problem with it is, it can't really be an Attack because the attack doesn't trigger on-play, it triggers when you call it. Also, it's confusing when you shuffle and then attack in the middle of someone else's turn because of a card like Spy or something. Other than that, it's fine. I certainly wouldn't buff it to +4 Cards and an Action.

P.S.: +Cards comes BEFORE +Actions, not after it. You made that mistake on your Traveller Nun, as well.

1423

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: You make the card: An F.DS community-created fan card! (Part 9)

« on: December 19, 2015, 02:42:15 pm »

Poll closes in a couple hours, but new thread won't be until tomorrow. My thought for the next poll was more general mechanics before we move into having people send suggestions of actual cards to vote on. (Does it produce coin, does it decrease handsome when played vs cantrip, etc. )

Actually, I'm thinking we should vote on price first. I was going to have us decide price later, but if we already have a card, price should just be about balance, not opinion. If we vote on price, then people can send in ideas that fit the cost we've agreed on.

It's hard to make interesting cards if you think of the cost first. I disagree and think that we should do price last.

1424

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Holy Order

« on: December 18, 2015, 07:24:09 pm »

If you're going to make a card that works with Hexes, you should make more Kingdom Hexes than just Sinner.

1425

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Holy Order

« on: December 18, 2015, 03:39:56 pm »

The best it can possibly be is +3 cards on your next turn. Looks at Haunted Woods. That gives you the same thing plus it attacks your opponents. And this will rarely actually be +3 cards, normally it will be +2 cards, or worse. Wharf gives you that plus a buy, and 2 cards and a buy when you play it.

Also good points, referring to version 1.0, but mostly accurate for the update as well. I knew I over-nerfed it, and it'll need something useful in the turn you play it: thinking either a draw-up-to-6 (thematic with the Duration effect) or a handsize attack on opponents (ensuring there's always a handsize attack in kingdoms with this, and making the Duration effect more valuable).

The handsize attack option antisynergizes with the duration effect though, because it makes it harder for your opponents to buy higher-cost cards, which means less cards drawn for you.