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26
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
« on: February 01, 2019, 11:32:12 am »
I could get behind e's Space vote; they are looking increasingly scummy, but I'd still say mail-mi is scummier for now.

I haven't done those rereads I promised.  I'll get to it.

Is it still too early to reconsider re ash and e?  I think e has been towny, but this obsession of ash's with the Glooble thing isn't great.  I dunno, I guess it's not explicitly scummy, but it is definitely distracting us all from the more important stuff.  Nah it's not enough to reconsider on them.  Not on my lynch list for today.

27
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
« on: February 01, 2019, 11:25:58 am »
I see nothing scummy about the last batch of quotes.

What isn't scummy about them?
Nope.  We're not doing this.  Are you kidding?  Construct an actual case and I might pay attention

28
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
« on: February 01, 2019, 11:22:56 am »
Also the last one says the exact same thing in context, I just shortened the post because it also had unrelated stuff in it.
This is BS.  The quote is about joth's theory that Lalight is some kind of cult leader/recruiter. 
Whereas where you are quoting it above, you are clearly trying to construct the narrative that joth wanted to drive a lynch through on you without being on the wagon.

29
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
« on: February 01, 2019, 09:25:04 am »
I think Awaclus knows their meta is well-known by now and is playing off-meta on purpose, which is why only the people who have been out of the loop are perceiving her obvious scumminess.

Out of the loop or not, I don't have any idea how anyone can perceive this:

Eh, I guess it doesn't hurt to weigh in on the LL wagon. I think the wagon is of very low utility and the lynch should happen later in the game if at all, instead of now. If LL is telling the truth, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch. If he is scum and he messed up his fakeclaim, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch either. Either way, we don't get any useful wagon analysis out of it.

as more scummy as this:

For instance, I'll learn that if LaLight flips scum, we should probably lynch Awaclus tomorrow.
For instance, I'll learn that if LaLight flips scum, we should probably lynch Awaclus tomorrow.

We could also do it the other way around!

vote: Awaclus

I'm down.

vote: Awaclus
If Iím right though, should we lynch elsewhere? Try to hit real scum?
I see nothing scummy about the last batch of quotes.
Except that you've cherry picked the very final one so that it looks bad out of context, which makes you look worse, not joth.

30
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
« on: February 01, 2019, 04:02:33 am »
I can't believe this is what we're spending our beginning of the day talking about.

vote: Awaclus

We can do better.

Vote: WestCoastDidds

On wagon D1, off wagon D2
Hmm.  Hard to argue with that.  A bit obvious maybe?  Then again WCD is new.

For the record, I strongly townread WCD.

Also worth noting:  Space was offwagon.

I wanted to join WCD (whom I trusted as townie) on the alternative mail-mi wagon because I couldn't feel the Swan wagon (which at that point was also at 2 votes), and I wanted to see what people did if there was an apparent going concern that wasn't LL. For me, I get WCD and myself as green-coloured names on a wagon on an unknown player. Whoever joins in 3rd/4th place is more likely not to be the same faction as mail-mi, so it gets information even while we're queueing up LL for the lynch.

I really really don't like the above.  At no point (again, that I can find) does Space vote for Lalight.  And yet says that LL is their main lynch candidate, while voting elsewhere.  What's that about?  In light of LL's flip I'd say that looks really scummy.  It gives you something to point to later and say "no but look I wanted LL lynched too" without ever actually helping the lynch.

I did want to lynch LL, but I also wanted to hunt for the other scums too with the time and resources left in D2 (before more weird night stuff and cult conversions came in to mess with my reads on people).

Wouldn't you say that it's interesting that the only other person who joined the wagon was LL herself, and even then, she eventually realised that it was too useful to town to let all that continue, and self-hammered rather than see her buddies tempted into exposing themselves on the mail-mi wagon?

I also note that you are now voting mail-mi, so you can't exactly accuse me of not having had grounds to be suspicious in the first place: mail-mi's behaviour hasn't been townie.

Space I'd like you to explain yourself a bit, I think.  Just, like: why the above vote, why didn't you ever vote Lalight, why the lack of votes in general, etc.

I mean, why vote LL at that point? Just to end the day sooner? I don't think it was particularly unreasonable for me to have assumed the day would still be going on at 9 or 10pm our time the day after I cast the mail-mi vote, even though it ended before noon (UK time). It just shows that more people agreed that LL was the correct lynch choice than could actually fit on the wagon, which is not that surprising when someone looks like they've probably scumslipped.
Intentionally or not, you're dodging the point.
Failing to commit to a vote for someone you are claiming to find scummiest is explicitly antitown.

1) it means that you as scum can throw shade at your partners and look good in retrospect without ever helping them be lynched.

2) it means that even if you are town, it is much more difficult to analyse your position after you flip: did you actually find x scummier than y or should we assume because you voted for y and not x that that was what you truly believed?

3) the point that you have already somewhat addressed: voting puts pressure on players, which is usually a good thing, making town players play townier and making scum players possibly slip.




Separately: Ash I'm sorry I still think you're wrong. "radch-aligned" refers to alignment obviously but "good guys" looked like a flavour comment.

If Glooble had said made the same statement but with the word "protagonists" instead of "good guys", I really don't think we'd be having this discussion. And I can't bring myself to interpret the statement as being intended to mean anything else.

31
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
« on: January 31, 2019, 04:47:07 pm »
OK here's a thing for me to sleep on.
Is waiting to lynch mail-mi better? Like, we think scum will v much want to kill mail-mi before more results happen. Can we wait and see whether thag happens? Or is that too late by then?

Also by that argument I guess E should be dead by now.

Hmm

32
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
« on: January 31, 2019, 04:21:12 pm »
It annoys me that hyper never confirmed that her information was mod-confirmed.  if you see what I mean.  The information might have come in like a message from the cult or something, making it unreliable.  I dunno.  Probably not.
Jeesus she actually did so on 2 separate occasions.  OK ignore my saying that, sorry.  Also sorry hyper. :P

Just found the mail-mi claim.  Had seen it earlier but not processed it cos the day was ending.  Yup.  It's a stinker...
vote: mail-mi

33
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
« on: January 31, 2019, 04:14:34 pm »
Thatís ridiculous. Iím going to take this to pm so I donít clog the thread or get uncivil, and I suggest anyone else who disagrees with this action do the same.
The whole forum have already had this argument I'm afraid.  I was very much on your side, but the voices who cared the most were on the other side, so this is a fairly standard rule now.



Also that's not my alignment, my alignment is actually town. But this confirms that the cult is pro-town, so even if I was part of the cult, lynching me would be a dumb move.
It doesn't say pro-town.  It just says not-explicitly antitown.  "not considered an enemy of the radch" is not the same as "an ally of the radch".
Hmm ok so hyper did essentially say that the cult was explicitly protown.
It annoys me that hyper never confirmed that her information was mod-confirmed.  if you see what I mean.  The information might have come in like a message from the cult or something, making it unreliable.  I dunno.  Probably not.

I can't believe this is what we're spending our beginning of the day talking about.

vote: Awaclus

We can do better.

Vote: WestCoastDidds

On wagon D1, off wagon D2
Hmm.  Hard to argue with that.  A bit obvious maybe?  Then again WCD is new.
Also worth noting:  Space was offwagon.  Here is their post and (as far as I can see) only vote of the day:

Sure, mail-mi is a would-lynch. I wondered where most of the scrutiny on him from D1 went, though I was voting him for much of that time anyway.

Vote: mail-mi

My main would-lynch is still LL.

I wouldn't lynch Awaclus at this point without a scummy flip from LL of a type that indicates LL was on a team with other scums.
I really really don't like the above.  At no point (again, that I can find) does Space vote for Lalight.  And yet says that LL is their main lynch candidate, while voting elsewhere.  What's that about?  In light of LL's flip I'd say that looks really scummy.  It gives you something to point to later and say "no but look I wanted LL lynched too" without ever actually helping the lynch.

In general actually Space has made very very few votes.  I can't remember if this is normal for them.  If it's not normal for space I'd lean towards that lack of commitment to a vote as being scummy. 

Space I'd like you to explain yourself a bit, I think.  Just, like: why the above vote, why didn't you ever vote Lalight, why the lack of votes in general, etc.


However I will say: it's obvious that Glooble was talking purely about the flavour, noting that we are radch-aligned and town, but not the "good guys" in the sense of the books, ie. We are aligned against the protagonists of the books.

This is not difficult to understand. Anyone voting Glooble for that is scummy.

It is difficult to understand. I'm not familiar with the flavor at all, and this is my best effort at trying to figure out what's going on:

1) In the book, "Radch" aren't necessarily heroes or villains
2) Therefore, getting a character from the book who isn't necessarily a hero or a villain as "Radch-aligned" isn't surprising
3) If that's what happened to Glooble, it is not strange for Glooble to assume that "Radch-aligned" (i.e. town) are the heroes from the book
4) And then if that's what Glooble assumed, it goes against that assumption when a town player flips a villain flavor name and a scum player flips a hero flavor name and this is worth pointing out in the thread
5) For some reason, Glooble assumed that everyone else also assumed that "Radch-aligned" are the heroes from the book

Is this right?
Yes, but it's not nearly as convoluted as you make it sound. 
As for 5), you sound incredulous, but yeah: in lots of mafia games, town are the protagonists of the book/flavour.

However I will say: it's obvious that Glooble was talking purely about the flavour, noting that we are radch-aligned and town, but not the "good guys" in the sense of the books, ie. We are aligned against the protagonists of the books.

This is not difficult to understand. Anyone voting Glooble for that is scummy.

This is actually the thing that stands out to me from that whole exchange.

Like it's so implausible to see where the idea that Glooble scumslipped comes from that it must be scummy? I get what Glooble was saying, now, in retrospect, but those votes that immediately follow make sense to me too.
Meh, not really.  I just couldn't bring myself to see what Glooble said any other way.  Maybe "the people who made that vote should feel bad" is a better way to say it.  But I was posting quickly on my phone and didn't have time to un-exaggerate my response.


Ok, so. This is going to be a bit stream-of-consciousness so bear with me.

There's 10 of us left. SpaceAnemone, jotheonah, mail-mi, Awaclus, 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow, ashersky, Haddock, Glooble

Of these, I am pretty much 100 percent convinced that joth, Glooble, e, and ashersky are town.

If I take seriously the suggestion that mail-mi and Awaclus, both of whom I'd very much like to lynch, are not scum because if they were they were too obvious about trying to save LaLight, then I'm looking at a pool of Space, WCD, Haddock, and Umbrage. The latter two are relatively recent replacements for lurkers so I don't have a strong read on either of them (ironically, they replaced the two players I probably have the strongest ability to read). Space and WCD, on the other hand, are both players I don't have too much trouble believing are scum, though I wouldn't say I have strong scumreads on either of them.

Hmmm. Looking at the LaLight wagon now:

Haddock, hypercube, jotheonah, Glooble, ashersky, 2.71828....., LaLight

There is only one person on that wagon who isn't either obvtown to me, confirmed town, or LaLight and that's Haddock. So if scum is doing the one-on one-off thing (which I think is a reasonable default assumption) that would bring me to suspect Haddock.

Or, of course, there is the possibility that e and ashersky are scum together and the cop claim was a gambit. We have to keep that in mind even though I think it quite unlikely for a number of reasons.
Huh.  I mean.  Wrong - I'm town.  But that analysis is annoyingly easy to follow and makes sense.

The conclusion from my perspective, though, is that you (joth) are worth suspecting (you were already on my radar) or that you were right re mail-mi and/or Awaclus.  Of those three I'm more inclined to vote for you or mail-mi (probably mail-mi over you by a little way).
Awaclus has been pretty Awaclus so far - and I am not really even excluding his egregious behaviour re the Lalight lynch.  That play is still well within his nullzone.



I need to reread mail-mi.  I hadn't been getting many scumvibes, but apparently I've missed stuff; someone mentioned a cop claim?



Hmm actually as i catch up more maybe I need to reread Glooble too.  there are weird things there that I wasn't seeing before.  (Not to mention Space having brought Glooble to my attention.)

34
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 3)
« on: January 31, 2019, 12:59:31 pm »
Ok, willing to consider the possibility that I just don't care for Awaclus's playstyle and maybe I'm reacting emotionally to her constant attacks on me.
Congratulations young padawan you have taken the first step towards mafia wisdom :P

Also folks I moved house today and have much unpacking to do. Gonna have to catch up with yall later on tonight.

However I will say: it's obvious that Glooble was talking purely about the flavour, noting that we are radch-aligned and town, but not the "good guys" in the sense of the books, ie. We are aligned against the protagonists of the books.

This is not difficult to understand. Anyone voting Glooble for that is scummy.

35
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
« on: January 27, 2019, 04:24:11 pm »
I think it's legitimate to talk about likelihoods relative to the baseline, and say someone has a high/low probability of being scum with the implicit caveat that you mean relative to the standard baselines.

Yes, the baseline is exactly what I was talking about when I used the word "prior". It gets used enough if mafia games that I'm pretty sure even people on the "wordsy" end of the player spectrum understand what it means.
I can't remember anyone other than you using the word prior in a mafia game on this forum.

Moreover: although it would not be unreasonable for me to describe myself as a professional mathematician, I nevertheless don't know what you mean by "prior" in this context.
(Well I sort of do now, but didn't before.)



I'm much more inclined to see space's insistence on discussion of absolute probabilities scummy.
It ignores the fact that this is simply not how people usually communicate. Maybe you feel it should be, but that doesn't give you free reign to accuse others of being misleading; they are only communicating as comes most naturally to them.

In fact, I deliberately said I'm not sure whether Glooble falls into the "mathsy" camp or not:

I don't know how much of a logic person you are, but that looks like either sloppy work, or a deliberate twisting of facts.

which means I don't know if I should be expecting him to think rationally.

This is exactly my point.  People can think rationally and discuss rationally and generally be rational people without needing to present their every thought in the context of Bayesian statistics and probability.  Indeed I'd say it helps the discussions to avoid couching everything in the probabilities, since the probability that someone is scum is always so small that if you just follow the probability you'll never make a decision.


The rest of this quote
If that post came from a logical player like silverspawn or faust, I would immediately smell a rat because it looks carefully-crafted to make everyone focus on the less likely stuff while dismissing almost all of the other options that don't fit hist case argument with the barest mention, even though they could be a lot more likely on the whole. Based on the fact that Glooble has now said he just wasn't thinking about probability (while making a probability-based "what's more likely" kind of an argument), I'm happy to concede that he really doesn't seem to be a Bayesian.
heavily implies that Glooble is somehow an illogical person because he didn't use Bayesian arguments.    And throwing doubt onto someone's ability to analyse correctly (for not-very-good reasons) is just as scummy a thing to do as throwing doubt onto their alignment (for not-very-good reasons).


As an exercise, Haddock, if you started with a set of scenarios like Glooble posted, how would you proceed with you reasoning? I know that you went straight to picking up on exactly the point I did, which was that he was glossing over what seemed by far to be the most likely option. You went for it because of how it misrepresented Awaclus's logic, and I went for it because it underrepresented the likelihood of most players being townie to begin with, but we both obviously disagreed with the case.
You've seen how I would proceed with my reasoning.  I didn't analyse the way Glooble chose to present the information because it seemed natural to me.  I analysed his claim that Awaclus's vaguely irrational-looking behaviour made him less likely to be town.  Which was a claim I disagreed with.


Rather than throwing shade for my attempts to articulate why Glooble's case was wrong,
By all means say Glooble's case was wrong.  It's your implicit (and sometimes explicit) attempt to discredit Glooble's reasoning capacities that I am throwing shade at.


why not try scrutinising Glooble's decision to vote Awaclus over LL in the first place, given that he'd explicitly stated that he thought LL was scummy, then moved to Awa because of this case that evidently convinced him so unexpectedly, and then switched back to LL again apparently just because of the plurality lynch that's still 30+ hours out.
Hmmm.  Here you have a point.  i have been getting strong towny vibes from Glooble throughout and perhaps didn't give this the scrutiny it deserved.  Though 30+ hours is not really all that long.  I agree that gives Glooble some scumpoints but I still absolutely wouldn't have him on my lynch list for today.



36
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
« on: January 27, 2019, 02:01:29 pm »
I don't find discussion of absolute probabilities at all helpful.

The absolute probability of any one person being scum is of course lowish, everyone knows that.
I think it's legitimate to talk about likelihoods relative to the baseline, and say someone has a high/low probability of being scum with the implicit caveat that you mean relative to the standard baselines.

That said, I've already pointed out that I disagree with Glooble's points re. Awaclus.
I just don't find it to be nearly as misleading as you seem to, space.  So no i dont get scumvibes from that Glooble post.

I'm much more inclined to see space's insistence on discussion of absolute probabilities scummy.
It ignores the fact that this is simply not how people usually communicate. Maybe you feel it should be, but that doesn't give you free reign to accuse others of being misleading; they are only communicating as comes most naturally to them.

37
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
« on: January 27, 2019, 01:14:51 pm »
PPE wow Glooble samebrain.

38
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
« on: January 27, 2019, 01:14:18 pm »
Sorry space, but not sure I agree with you there.

Typically it would be natural to break into 4 but this situation is far from typical in that LL is really quite lynchable even if she is town.

Hence it makes sense to present both of the two town!awaclus scenarios together in one block.

Even more so when you consider that awaclus being town would mean awaclus doesn't know LL's alignment and therefore analysing awaclus's behaviour is much more difficult.

39
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
« on: January 27, 2019, 10:48:41 am »
So in the process of trying to write this post I think I've convinced myself that Awaclus is probably scum. I know this contradicts what I just stated, but I've had a bit of a breakthrough.

Scenario 1: LL is scum. Awaclus is also scum and is trying to forestall LLs lynch one night. Maybe to give LL a chance to use a 1-shot power? Maybe in the hopes that night 2 will give info that will allow her to push an alternate lynch. This is the scenario I've been leaning towards.

Scenario 2:  Awaclus is town, does not know LL's alignment, and honestly believes the fuzzy logic she's been expounding about LL's lynch not being informative.

Scenario 3: LL is town. Awaclus is scum, and knows LL is town, and wants to get town points for looking like she's trying to stop a town lynch.

Having laid this out, scenario two feels like far and away the least likely to me. Awaclus's behavior looks scummy to me regardless of LL's alignment.

I still really want to lynch LL.

But.

This is good too.

vote: Awaclus
I don't know your history with f.ds mafia, Glooble.  Get the impression you've played a bunch before I turned up? 
In any case, I'm not  sure how much you've played with Awaclus before. 

But I would say 2 actually isn't that unlikely.  Awaclus is a good logician, but he often comes from a totally different direction to things than most people, arguing from his own unique premises.  Even and/or especially when he's town.  So what looks like fuzzy logic is often sound logic, just derived from different postulates.  And presented abrasively.

40
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
« on: January 27, 2019, 10:46:07 am »
Thoughts on DatSwan:

PPE a ton of catch up since LL claim. But for now i am essentially edged on believing all claims to at least an extent. Reasons to follow.

So, here we have DatSwan stating the "believe all claims" at least to an extent.  Scum knows more than town, generally knows when town is telling the truth.  Sometimes they ignore the truths town states, but at other times they accept and "believe all claims" because they know town is telling the truth, and then after flips, etc., they will be proven "correct" and therefore townie.

Datswan doubles down on this later:

OK so I have just been playing catchup (sorry) work has been a nightmare. I keep reading up and then realizing a ton of stuff happened while I was gone and then reading again... and etc etc. So I am just gonna post major points here and get to deets later. First off:

alright then

I am Queter, a Radch-Aligned Shy Bugged Compulsive Visitor. I have to visit someone every night. If I don't get targeted by anyone and my Visit will be successful, I will become Self-Aligned with powers and win condition yet unknown. Bugged part of my role is that if investigated I will return Human or AI result with 50% probability for each. N1 I targeted Haddock and nothing happened.

LL, can you help me understand this better? You visited Haddock, but your visit was not successful since you did not become Self-aligned? (Is targeted the same as visited?)

Well, I targeted Haddock. I have no idea if I was visiting him in the end (I might've been roleblocked or I might've been visited). Or maybe Haddovck commuted or was rolestopped. I have no idea, but I did not have a choice to change alignment, basically I didn't get any response

- I do not think this comes as skum. It could come off as a Survivor claim, but it could also come off as a SK claim or skum claim. I think on the spot like LL was, they would of taken a different route as skum in regards to the content of their claim.

- Additionally I know what my role is, and there is a specific part of it that by no means "clears" LL here... but also pushes me in the direction of believing them.

Those two points can basically read: I am scum, I know LaLight isn't, possible SK, possible survivor, but not scum.

Then DatSwan changes the topic of conversation in this post to Ash, hypercube, myself, and mcmc.  And then jumps on a very opportunistic Awaclus wagon.

All the scum feels, none of the townie feels.

The redirection made me think that DatSwan and LaLight could potentially be partners, and I was tempted to switch back to LaLight and lynch them first, if they flip scum move on to DatSwan.  But I think I like my theories about scum!Swan knowing information and white knighting LaLight makes more sense.
It is very difficult to argue with this case.  I think I would struggle to vote outside of LL and Swan at this point.

41
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
« on: January 27, 2019, 10:45:38 am »
I am always down for an Awaclus lynch.

however.  Can we just have some constructive conversation about like, anything else first.  It's clear Awa and me/others won't agree, so rather than continue this (it's just one vote after all), we could talk about other stuff.

Like whether we think Swan is scummy.  I think a bit, but Swan is a tricky one for me to read.

This post seems townish from you, even though advocating a blanket Awa lynch isn't the most pro-town of things.

I re-read Swan, and can see whether you're coming from. The thing that struck me most was that he was quite concerned about Ash's dayvig shot, so if Swan is scum then I think that was something they weren't expecting.
Why are you so keen to simultaneously throw shade at me and also hedge on me?  I don't like it.

I'm so obviously not advocating an Awa lynch in the above, I think it's clear that I'm making a meta comment; namely that I find Awaclus completely unreadable because he's always exactly the same amount of annoying.


42
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
« on: January 26, 2019, 07:50:22 pm »
I had a thought that maybe the lack of kill is because this weird hypercube recruitment thing is like a kill-substitute?
After all it results always in the loss of a town player...

Doesn't make sense, since the cult also needs to exterminate scum to win. If anything is a kill substitute it's ash's dayvig.

Or there is no cult and the scum kill is ďjoin or die.Ē

Are you suggesting that faust was lying or that I'm lying?
I'm not really suggesting either, just speculating: you never did confirm that the info you had was mod confirmed; as I asked before  is it possible you have been deceived? That is, did this information about this cultish third party come from faust or via some kind of message?

43
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
« on: January 26, 2019, 07:00:39 pm »
I am always down for an Awaclus lynch.

however.  Can we just have some constructive conversation about like, anything else first.  It's clear Awa and me/others won't agree, so rather than continue this (it's just one vote after all), we could talk about other stuff.

Like whether we think Swan is scummy.  I think a bit, but Swan is a tricky one for me to read.

44
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
« on: January 26, 2019, 12:24:21 pm »
I keep forgetting that Hyper is going to die today. If LL is Radch, too, and if there is a NK that is a rather dramatic decrease in our town folk.  :-\

Hey, why didnít anyone die during N1? I was so caught up in the Asher kill and then lynchproof and Joth hated parts that I hadnít processed the lack of a nightkill.

The Glooble/Awaclus discussion makes me feel pretty towny about both of them, although maybe that is the point. Iíve never actually seen Awa engage this much with someone so it seems out of the ordinary for him, but the nature of his engagement is consistent with my (limited) Awa experience.
I keep forgetting that Hyper is going to die today. If LL is Radch, too, and if there is a NK that is a rather dramatic decrease in our town folk.  :-\

Hey, why didnít anyone die during N1? I was so caught up in the Asher kill and then lynchproof and Joth hated parts that I hadnít processed the lack of a nightkill.

The Glooble/Awaclus discussion makes me feel pretty towny about both of them, although maybe that is the point. Iíve never actually seen Awa engage this much with someone so it seems out of the ordinary for him, but the nature of his engagement is consistent with my (limited) Awa experience.

The most likely possibility is we have a doctor and they got lucky/played well. A town doc obviously wouldnít want to claim here (and rightly so).

It could also be a roleblocker, but in that case they maybe should claim since they have a pretty good idea their target is scum. Or it could be a jailkeeper, in which case itís 50/50 if they targeted the victim or the shooter.

But we donít know and probably donít gain much by speculating. If a person thinks they should claim they will.

I had a thought that maybe the lack of kill is because this weird hypercube recruitment thing is like a kill-substitute?
After all it results always in the loss of a town player...

I am Queter, a Radch-Aligned Shy Bugged Compulsive Visitor. I have to visit someone every night. If I don't get targeted by anyone and my Visit will be successful, I will become Self-Aligned with powers and win condition yet unknown. Bugged part of my role is that if investigated I will return Human or AI result with 50% probability for each. N1 I targeted Haddock and nothing happened.

Two other points about LL's claim that have me thinking that it could easily be fake:

The "Shy" modifier presumably is related to the alignment-changing part of the claim. However, LL's alignment would change if she's unable to visit or if no-one targets her; that sounds like the opposite of shy to me, so it could be a modification of a real role that LL knows about somehow.

"Bugged" makes sense for a role that would give an AI a chance as identifying as human, but less so for a role that would give a human a chance of identifying as AI. Of course faust could have given the Bugged modifier to various people and just called it the same thing in all cases, but it feels a bit out of place here and could easily be something that scum!LL took from her true role or one of her teammates' roles.
I think once again you're reading wrong?
I understood that LLs alignment changes unless she was blocked.

45
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
« on: January 26, 2019, 08:03:08 am »
Oh by the way I keep meaning to say, if I haven't already: there is nothing I did N1 that would have prevented LaLight's claimed thing from happening.

If we want to go down this road (and Iím not certain we do) I should claim a little more.
Entirely your choice.  I didn't intend for there to be lots of claims, I just felt I could reveal that without giving away anything much about my role.

46
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
« on: January 25, 2019, 07:21:20 pm »
Oh by the way I keep meaning to say, if I haven't already: there is nothing I did N1 that would have prevented LaLight's claimed thing from happening.

47
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
« on: January 25, 2019, 03:27:41 pm »
Do you understand thereís no incentive for me to change alignment now? I do not really want to do it, i can help town. And i wasnít offered to anyway.
According to your own claim, you have no choice in the matter; you have no control over your own alignment.  It sucks for you, but you have to see how we are struggling to let that pass.  You are a totally loose cannon.

48
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
« on: January 25, 2019, 12:47:47 pm »
Eh, I guess it doesn't hurt to weigh in on the LL wagon. I think the wagon is of very low utility and the lynch should happen later in the game if at all, instead of now. If LL is telling the truth, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch. If he is scum and he messed up his fakeclaim, scum isn't going to be opposed to his lynch either. Either way, we don't get any useful wagon analysis out of it.

I don't follow your logic at all.

If she's scum, scum want her to survive because that's how they win. If the other scum aren't defending her its because they think there's more utility in earning town points by being on the scum wagon.

If she does end up town, then I think she's just as informative as any other lynch, plus we're not losing a power that has any utility to town, plus her alignment was probably going to change anyway which likely would have been bad for town.

It's just a very weird fakeclaim for scum to make--it makes town inclined to lynch her. I guess WIFOM, but I'm willing to believe her for now.
But even if we believe her, why wouldn't we lynch her? 
If she's town and her claim is true then she will shortly become not-town; if anyone is thinking of wasting a role block on Lalight for the rest of the game to prevent her changing, I beg them to think again.


Obviously going elsewhere is fine, but I haven't seen a convincing case on anyone else, so I'm definitely happy with where my vote is right now.  (Yes other people are scummy, but not _that_ scummy.)

49
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
« on: January 25, 2019, 09:54:32 am »
I'd like to return to this just briefly, as a side-note.  Ash I've just run a search on the thread and you absolutely hadn't mentioned anything about your hatedness until this post quoted here.  Any clarification you have would be great; can we confirm with you for instance and in particular that your role was responsible for "both halves" of your doubly-hatedness yesterday?  (ie. your role is sometimes doublehated, not just sometimes hated.)

The post Haddock quoted was #472. There's this from Ash at #467:

Also, nice speculation by all on the odd wagon size (no sarcasm here).  But I took only 5 votes to lynch.

As for why I didn't die -- no idea.  Assuming someone protected me from the NK as I believe I'm scum's top NK priority.

He got called on that by WCD, and then clarified at #482. However, I'd definitely felt like his later tone implied that he was asserting that he'd been explicit, whereas I think "I took only 5 votes to lynch" is more readily interpreted as an observation of that fact that he was declared lynched when there were only 5 votes on him than it is as a statement of causality.
I absolutely interpreted it as a statement of observation rather than any kind of claim.

And I missed it during the recent search because I Ctrl+F'd for "hated" and also for "hetnys".

50
Mafia Game Threads / Re: RMM51: Imperial Radch Mafia (Day 2)
« on: January 25, 2019, 07:02:36 am »
Ironic that ash keeps talking about giving the town an extra lynch day 1 (as if thatís protown) But she has in fact denied us a day one lynch by not dying.

Iím tempted to ask ash to fullclaim. Iím also tempted to go ahead and try to finish what we started day one.

Well, I didn't plan on me being the extra lynch, nor did I know I wouldn't die.

The extra lynch should have been whomever was #2 on the lynch list -- so one of the folks with two votes.  Or it looks like the new Galzria would have been coming after you.

Regardless of my not dying, we did have two "lynches" on D1.  We just didn't get two flips.

As for full claiming, not a good idea.  Remaining number of shots and when/how I can use them is what scum wants to know.  Scum also wants to lynch me.

I've claimed what needs to be known (through words or actions).  Hetnys, sometimes dayvig, sometimes hated.  Everything else is not related to my role (not dying from lynch, surviving last night).
I'd like to return to this just briefly, as a side-note.  Ash I've just run a search on the thread and you absolutely hadn't mentioned anything about your hatedness until this post quoted here.  Any clarification you have would be great; can we confirm with you for instance and in particular that your role was responsible for "both halves" of your doubly-hatedness yesterday?  (ie. your role is sometimes doublehated, not just sometimes hated.)

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