101
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Trading Post
« on: April 29, 2015, 12:00:51 am »
What's he doing? Something Intriguing I'm sure.
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102
Game Reports / Re: Dominion VP ....glitch?
« on: April 26, 2015, 07:59:50 pm »If the game ends normally, are duration cards which are in play counted for gardens?
I imagine they are. The instructions are very clear about what cards are returned to the deck at the end of the game. I assume this glitch only occurs because the game doesn't actually end, so it never tries to return those cards to the deck. I at least have never noticed an incorrect score for Alt VP cards.
I think the question was asking about more the actual rules of the game, than the online programming. Is that correct? I guess there are no rules for "resigning" IRL..
Yes, that is definitely correct. In-play cards are always part of your deck for scoring purposes. Though I don't really think there needs to be rules for resigning irl because if one player resigns then that person loses, there's nothing more to it.
103
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Card names
« on: April 26, 2015, 12:04:38 pm »
I think Bazaar and Port are fine. I see what you mean about how "Bazaar" should probably give +Buy, but I don't really care that they don't have the world "Village" in their name. I think it would be kind of boring if every single village had the word "Village" in the name.
Anyway, there are a number of cards that I think are really neat thematically, but City and Rats are probably my favorite.
Anyway, there are a number of cards that I think are really neat thematically, but City and Rats are probably my favorite.
104
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Definition of Combo discussion
« on: April 23, 2015, 08:06:38 pm »In any case, pure dictionary definitions aren't great for this discussion. If we do that, we can say any two cards make a combo whether they work together or not, because the definition of "combo" is "any combination".
Exactly. Pure dictionary definitions don't work.
Context matters.
Which is why I felt the need to explain what I thought the definition of combo was in the context of Dominion strategy.
Clearly my concept of that contextual definition differs from some other people's, which is fine.
The thing I have difficulty with is advocating the view that synergy should mean "any cards that work well together" and combo should mean "any cards that work well together".
Isn't it useful to the discussion to have different words mean different things?
(Again, in the context of Dominion strategy discussion, obviously it's okay for words to have synonyms generally).
I agree that context is important. That's why prescribing specific definitions is pointless; it should be pretty clear from context what somebody means by "synergy" or "combo". If I use the word "combo" when talking about Dominion it's not like the person I'm talking to is going to come to this thread to see what the community consensus is on the meaning of the word; it should be fairly obvious what I mean, and if it's not then the other person will ask me to clarify. We aren't writing legal documents, we're talking about a game.
That being said, I don't think I've ever in my life heard the word "synergy" used to mean anything other than multiple things that are greater than the sum of their parts. The word "combo" is a bit more ambiguous, but what else could "synergy" possibly mean? If two cards work well together then certainly they're greater than the sum of their parts.
105
Dominion: Adventures Previews / Re: Crazy Adventures Tricks (probably not combos)
« on: April 23, 2015, 07:07:06 pm »Opening Ferry lets you get a $6-cost with a 3/4 open.
Yeah, I definitely think this is gonna be pretty busted. Kinda sucks for the one not opening 3/4, though.
And yeah, I agree that Transmogrify/Fortress is probably going to be pretty strong. It's no Procession/Fortress, but I mean what is.
106
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Definition of Combo discussion
« on: April 23, 2015, 12:21:29 pm »Rebuild+Oasis has positive synergy...but not so much that I would call it more than the sum of its parts
But that's what "synergy" is
107
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Definition of Combo discussion
« on: April 23, 2015, 03:03:46 am »So now "combo" just means "a strategy that doesn't fit into the other four deck types recognized by f:ds"?
That's the impression I keep getting. If that's the case, why not just call it a "Miscellaneous" deck? Ooh, or how about a "Bag o' Tricks" deck? That sounds way more fun than "Combo" and probably makes more sense.
108
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Definition of Combo discussion
« on: April 22, 2015, 05:22:50 pm »The cutoff point is a combo that's strong enough to almost always be the best strategy in the kingdom and cannot be substantially improved with the addition of other cards. Obviously this is an arbitrary point and the cutoff is not too clearly defined, but everyone knows that there's a difference between Hermit/MS and Plaza/Library.
I see what you're getting at, but does that mean KC/Bridge isn't a combo? After all, you can't really pull it off without a good amount of support; I still think KC/Bridge deserves its own article. What about Highway/Market? The synergy between those two cards can be devastatingly powerful in some kingdoms and borderline worthless in others. I mean sure, the same effect can potentially be achieved with other combinations of cost-reduction, +Buy, and virtual money, but I still think an article on that particular combo can be useful for novice players to start thinking about that specific combination of resources. Would an article on Highway/Market be terribly useful to a high-level player? Probably not, but then again a high-level player probably doesn't need to read an article on Village; I still think a Village article is useful.
Anyway, I think this thread is kind of starting to go in circles, so I guess I'll just summarize the points I'm trying to make and leave it at that. As an English word, I think "combo" should be able to refer to any synergistic sequence of plays, as that's what it means in pretty much every other game. As a deck type, I think the term can be useful, but obsessing over the precise definition and getting upset over people misusing the term seems pointless; it doesn't really matter what you call your deck, it just matters how well it works relative to the other options on the board and against what your opponent is doing. In terms of what merits its own article, I think we should be focusing less on the question "Is it a true combo?" and more on the question "Would such an article be useful in helping players learn how to play the game?" There are a lot of topics besides individual cards and game-breaking combos that would make useful articles. I personally think articles on synergies between certain card types (for example discard-for-benefit and draw-up-to-X) could be helpful, though in certain cases it may be just as useful to mention those synergies in their specific card articles. Either way, I think that's the sort of thing we should be discussing, not "What specific rules can we establish on what deserves its own combo article?"
109
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Definition of Combo discussion
« on: April 22, 2015, 03:50:05 pm »There are tons of cards that have positive synergy. Death Cart/Fortress is a strong synergy. Death Cart/Ironworks is a weaker synergy but it still operates on the same principle as Death Cart/Rats. Death Cart/Magpie can also synergize this way. Not all of these synergies deserve combo articles, and in fact all of these synergies except for Death Cart/Fortress can be addressed in a Death Cart article with "works well with (non-terminal) Action gainers."
And Death Cart/Fortress can be summarized in the Fortress article as "Fortress combos with trash-for-benefit". But Fortress is still going to combo with some TfB better than others, perhaps enough to win a game without any other support. Where do we draw the line on what deserves its own article? It's something worth discussing on a case-by-case basis so that we don't end up with articles like Plaza/Library on the wiki, but trying to precisely define a cutoff point is dumb.
For instance, the OP says Beggar/Gardens isn't a combo. So it shouldn't have its own article? I disagree. I think it's an incredibly powerful synergy that can win games by itself. Sure, you could summarize it in a Gardens article with "Gardens likes gainers", but the synergy between Beggar and Gardens is quite a bit more powerful than the synergy between Gardens and most other gainers. A novice player may not recognize how strong an enabler for Gardens Beggar is even if he knows that Gardens likes gainers; he may mistakenly think that a moderately powered engine can beat it. That's why the article is helpful.
To elaborate on your Plaza/Library example, there are also Plaza/Jack, Plaza/Watchtower, Plaza/Minion, Hamlet/Library, Oasis/Library, Warehouse/Library, etc. Every single one of these is a combo, but there are so many of them that it's not worth thinking "oh I should look for this specific combo;" you should rather think "oh draw-to-X synergizes with cards that discard from hand."
Okay, I agree with all of that. I'm confused what about my post you think you're disagreeing with. I never said Plaza/Library should have its own article or should be singled out as a combo that you should watch out for.
110
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Definition of Combo discussion
« on: April 22, 2015, 03:41:04 pm »
I think part of the problem is that we're kind of unnecessarily fixated on categorizing decks. Someone calls Beggar/Gardens a rush, another calls it a combo. Well I couldn't really care less, either it works or it doesn't (usually it does). Obsessing over what to call it seems pointless to me. It's a rush strategy that exploits a synergy between two cards, how's that?
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Dominion General Discussion / Re: Definition of Combo discussion
« on: April 22, 2015, 03:32:36 pm »
The word "combo" works just fine to describe any cards that have positive synergy. Plaza and Library can't really win a game by themselves (unless the board is pretty weak, I guess), but they still combo with one another. Hell, a card can even combo with itself (the most obvious instance being Governor).
Now, if we're talking about combo decks as one of the five fundamental deck archetypes, then that's a different story. However, I always thought that combo decks were poorly defined and kind of just a catch-all for everything that's not an engine, BM, slog, or rush deck. After all, what else do you call a Golem/Counting House deck? But then if you call it a combo deck then everyone's going to be on your ass about how it's not always a viable strategy by itself so it doesn't constitute a combo. Well okay, a Village-Moat engine probably won't win games, either, but it still fits the fundamental definition of an engine. It's just a bad engine.
Anyway, I don't really see why anyone's getting their panties in a bunch over what actually defines a combo. So what if Death Cart/Rats isn't always going to be a game-breaking combo? It's still an interesting card interaction and I don't see any harm in there being an article for it on the wiki. If the wiki were overflowing with combo articles then maybe there should be some kind of standard to determine what merits its own article, but at this point I don't think that's really a concern.
Now, if we're talking about combo decks as one of the five fundamental deck archetypes, then that's a different story. However, I always thought that combo decks were poorly defined and kind of just a catch-all for everything that's not an engine, BM, slog, or rush deck. After all, what else do you call a Golem/Counting House deck? But then if you call it a combo deck then everyone's going to be on your ass about how it's not always a viable strategy by itself so it doesn't constitute a combo. Well okay, a Village-Moat engine probably won't win games, either, but it still fits the fundamental definition of an engine. It's just a bad engine.
Anyway, I don't really see why anyone's getting their panties in a bunch over what actually defines a combo. So what if Death Cart/Rats isn't always going to be a game-breaking combo? It's still an interesting card interaction and I don't see any harm in there being an article for it on the wiki. If the wiki were overflowing with combo articles then maybe there should be some kind of standard to determine what merits its own article, but at this point I don't think that's really a concern.
112
Dominion League / Re: Season 7 - Results
« on: April 21, 2015, 08:51:05 pm »
E1:
swedenman: 5.5 bramroop: 0.5
swedenman: 5.5 bramroop: 0.5
113
Game Reports / Re: Peddler, Bishop, and Throne but only Shanty for draw
« on: April 20, 2015, 04:14:10 pm »
So the only successful Golden Deck I've ever built was Bishop/Fortress, so I'm not that familiar with building the standard Bishop-Silver-Silver-Gold-Province Golden Deck, but I'm pretty sure you need MUCH faster trashing to have any hope of pulling it together in time to beat your opponent. I would personally be hesitant to even try if Chapel wasn't on the board, or at least Steward or Remake (maybe Count?). Otherwise I don't see a Golden Deck beating straight BM, let alone BM+Hoard.
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Dominion: Adventures Previews / Re: Question : Rules book on RGG web site ?
« on: April 19, 2015, 07:00:13 pm »Plan seems a little less valuable for trashing Copper just because it means you have to keep the Copper in hand (thus costing you $1 that turn).
Okay, but isn't that technically the case for any trasher that isn't TfB?
115
Game Reports / Re: Dominion VP ....glitch?
« on: April 19, 2015, 04:01:47 pm »If the game ends normally, are duration cards which are in play counted for gardens?
I imagine they are. The instructions are very clear about what cards are returned to the deck at the end of the game. I assume this glitch only occurs because the game doesn't actually end, so it never tries to return those cards to the deck. I at least have never noticed an incorrect score for Alt VP cards.
116
Dominion: Adventures Previews / Re: Question : Rules book on RGG web site ?
« on: April 18, 2015, 03:48:39 pm »Okay so if someone plays Warrior, I actually discard the card before it's trashed? Which means that if it's Tunnel, I can reveal it to gain a Gold, covering it up so that it's lost track of, and it doesn't actually get trashed?
That sounds correct.
117
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Most valuable Fairgrounds
« on: April 18, 2015, 12:28:44 am »
http://logs.prod.dominion.makingfun.com//20150417/log.54afc4aee4b084914294ba05.1429330885303.txt
I was bored
Pre-Adventures I'm fairly confident the max number of uniques is 71, making Fairgrounds worth 28 each. I actually screwed up in this one and gained a Duchy with my Black Market Horn of Plenty, but luckily it didn't matter.
I think an interesting puzzle would be to see how fast you could get 8 28-point Fairgrounds (obviously I didn't put much thought into it on that one XD ).
I was bored
Pre-Adventures I'm fairly confident the max number of uniques is 71, making Fairgrounds worth 28 each. I actually screwed up in this one and gained a Duchy with my Black Market Horn of Plenty, but luckily it didn't matter.
I think an interesting puzzle would be to see how fast you could get 8 28-point Fairgrounds (obviously I didn't put much thought into it on that one XD ).
118
Rules Questions / Re: "Naming" a card
« on: April 17, 2015, 04:29:45 pm »
Now this is what I call in-depth Dominion analysis.
119
Help! / Re: Can Ironworks+Caravan+Conspirator+Treasury beat Council Room?
« on: April 11, 2015, 07:26:28 am »
Yeah, Council Room is generally a really powerful BM card, and too many key engine components are missing. Council Room BM doesn't really like any other actions, so I'm not sold on using Caravan for support, either. There might be something I'm not seeing, but Council Room BM looks best here.
120
Dominion League / Re: Season 7 - Results
« on: April 10, 2015, 07:20:00 pm »
E1:
swedenman: 4 goblinprof: 2
swedenman: 4 goblinprof: 2
121
Rules Questions / Re: Harold, Black Market and Possesion
« on: April 08, 2015, 06:06:02 pm »
I'm guessing your opponent's discard pile was empty. However, this wouldn't be the first time that Goko doesn't handle Possession correctly. It also handles Possessions played on possessed turns incorrectly.
122
Dominion Articles / Re: The 10 words card summary challenge
« on: April 08, 2015, 01:45:35 pm »maaaaaybe Masterpiece/Feodum
As much as I like this combo, I've actually never gotten to play it unless I deliberately added both of them to a kingdom.
Really? It's come up pretty often for me. At least three times, I think. Probably more.
It's come up once for me. My opponent didn't see it and it was otherwise an engine board, so I was pretty much uncontested on Silvers and Feoda. I ended up with 36 Silvers and all 8 12-point Feoda. That was pretty satisfying.
123
Dominion: Adventures Previews / Re: Champion and Teacher speculation
« on: April 07, 2015, 02:59:03 pm »
I hope at least one of them forms an unstoppable combo with Counting House.
"+1 Action; +3 Buys; Gain 32 Coppers and put your deck into your discard pile."
"+1 Action; +3 Buys; Gain 32 Coppers and put your deck into your discard pile."
124
Dominion: Adventures Previews / Re: New mechanics
« on: April 06, 2015, 01:45:03 pm »
So far I'm not a big fan of the new tokens. Inheritance in particular feels overly convoluted. The other token stuff looks alright but none of it seems exciting enough to me to warrant introducing a completely new mechanic. But I have no idea how any of this stuff is actually going to work in practice, so hopefully I'm completely wrong.
I really love the Reserves. They have a neat design and I imagine they'll really enhance the gameplay. Events look cool, and I think the exchangeable cards could be really sweet (though I imagine they'll be really hard to play).
Overall I'd say I like the new mechanics. This feels like the most game-breaking expansion so far, but I don't mean that in a bad way. I just expect it to be a while before the community really knows what they're doing with some of these cards. And I think that's a good thing.
I really love the Reserves. They have a neat design and I imagine they'll really enhance the gameplay. Events look cool, and I think the exchangeable cards could be really sweet (though I imagine they'll be really hard to play).
Overall I'd say I like the new mechanics. This feels like the most game-breaking expansion so far, but I don't mean that in a bad way. I just expect it to be a while before the community really knows what they're doing with some of these cards. And I think that's a good thing.