Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.

326

Rules Questions / Re: +Card token and when-you-play

« on: May 06, 2015, 02:50:16 pm »

I assume you mean a rule saying that a card that plays a Duration more than once stays out.

The "simple" rule I had in mind was something like: If a card directly plays the same duration card more than once, and more than one of those plays results in that duration setting up a future effect, the first card stays out for as long as any of those future effects remain.

I see that that doesn't work for RC, but I figured it'd be simpler to have a separate rule covering cards that do what RC does ("replaying" cards). (I haven't given much thought to what that rule might be, though.)

And I guess you're wanting to express a general rule that covers the behaviors of both TR and RC in one go.

327

Rules Questions / Re: +Card token and when-you-play

« on: May 05, 2015, 07:40:15 pm »

Related situation: You play Gear, setting aside zero cards. Gear will normally be discarded next clean-up. But then you play RC, replaying Gear, this time setting aside one or more cards. What happens? Probably Gear gets modified to stay out after all. Does RC also stay out? It did set up a future effect, but there's only one total future effect, and Gear will (presumably) be tracking that.

328

Rules Questions / Re: +Card token and when-you-play

« on: May 05, 2015, 12:01:33 pm »

Unless we're going with the thing Jeebus suggested about TR being able to tell whether a duration card has been "used" before in a turn.  ('Cuz, depending how you define that, it may also have weird implications (that nobody will ever notice) with Processioning durations then Graverobbing them and playing them again with TR in the space of a turn.)

Are there is any real examples of what you're talking about? For your scenario to work, doesn't the TR have to play the Duration just once after it's Graverobbered? I don't see that happening.

Sure. Procession-Gear, setting aside 2 cards each time (gain whatever). Graverobber the Gear. TR-Gear, first setting aside 0 cards, then 2 cards. Your suggestion (possibly) means, even though TR set up only one future effect on the Gear, TR needs to stay out because that Gear set up future effects before it met TR.

In any case, when a card is trashed and then fished out, I don't think it's considered the same card anymore for purposes of tracking how many times it's been played (since the trash is an unordered pile where there could be many of the same cards).

That's possible. The card's also been in your deck, which would be an even better reason to not know which one it is (because maybe you really don't).


The point I'm trying to make with all this is that TR's "stay in play" rules could be specified in a straightforward, explicit way, and it seems like we almost got there yesterday, but now it seems we're instead going off in this weird, vaguely-specified direction that's open for interpretation and brings up potential questions about completely unrelated stuff. I think we're getting too complicated.

That's why I keep bringing up TR staying out with TR-BoM-FV. To me, that's the one ruling throwing a monkey wrench into having a simple explicit rule here.

329

Rules Questions / Re: +Card token and when-you-play

« on: May 05, 2015, 01:27:25 am »

The rule in the rule book is that Throne Room stays in play "until it is no longer doing anything" if it played a Duration. If it didn't play a Duration, Throne Room is cleaned up on the turn on which it's played no matter what.

Ok, that makes sense.

Okay but look.

1. Did the Throne Room play a Duration? Yes it did.
2. Does the Throne Room have something to do on a future turn? Yes, it has to track that the Fishing Village is being played a second time.

See, I'm seeing the answer to (2) as "no."  Yeah, you and I know FV is getting played a second time partly thanks to TR, but as far as the TR's direct actions are concerned, it only played FV the one time, so it has no "second time" to track.

For me, in order to get the answer to (2) to be "yes," that means whenever TR plays a duration directly at any point, it also needs to go check to see whether it ever indirectly played that same duration through a BoM, even though it doesn't otherwise care about what it indirectly played. But maybe that's what happens.

Again, in FV–Royal Carriage, the Royal Carriage produces only one direct play of a Duration (the first play of the Duration was the FV being played by itself the normal way), but that doesn't stop RC from staying in play with it.

RC is doing something fundamentally different from TR. RC is explicitly acting on a card that's already been played. RC always produces an "extra" play, so it always has something to track for durations. (Though I wonder whether even RC might be ruled not to stay out when, e.g., replaying Gear without setting any cards aside.)

330

Rules Questions / Re: +Card token and when-you-play

« on: May 05, 2015, 12:00:12 am »

What does it mean for the Throne Room to be "doing anything"? Presumably the only sensible interpretation of that is, the Throne Room stays in play if the effect of having played the Throne Room is different from having just played the card without Throne Room. Whether the Throne Room played the Duration card once or twice is immaterial; what matters is if the act of having played a card twice—i.e., the effect of Throne Room—is still going to be resolving next turn.

The effect of having played KC-BoM-Feast-FV-FV is different from having played BoM-whatever without KC.  But it was decided KC doesn't stay out for that because it never played any durations directly.

So it's not only a matter of whether the act of playing a card N times is still going to be resolving next turn. It also appears to have something to do with whether the plays of durations were directly through TR or indirectly through BoM.

TR-BoM-FV has only one direct play of a duration, and one direct play of a duration (with a future effect) is not sufficient elsewhere (TR-Tactician) to keep a TR in play. So it's not clear to me why TR should stay out in that case.

331

Rules Questions / Re: +Card token and when-you-play

« on: May 04, 2015, 10:49:40 pm »

It doesn't need to have set up multiple future effects, but it does need to have set up a future effect. If it hasn't (e.g. Throne Tactician) it doesn't stay out.

Given that TR-Tactician doesn't set up a future effect that keeps TR in play, what future effect does TR-BoM-FV set up to keep that TR in play?  In the first case, TR directly plays a "live" duration and a "dud" duration; in the second case, TR directly plays a BoM and a "live" duration.  Neither TR directly plays more than a single "live" duration, yet we're saying one TR stays out and one doesn't.

Unless we're going with the thing Jeebus suggested about TR being able to tell whether a duration card has been "used" before in a turn.  ('Cuz, depending how you define that, it may also have weird implications (that nobody will ever notice) with Processioning durations then Graverobbing them and playing them again with TR in the space of a turn.)

332

Rules Questions / Re: +Card token and when-you-play

« on: May 04, 2015, 09:22:36 am »

If you Throne BoM as Fishing Village, the 2nd time, Throne played Fishing Village, and that's doing stuff next turn, so Throne stays out.

Hmmm...  Is directly playing a duration just once enough to leave TR in play?  Like, normally, even if TR plays a duration twice and one play of the duration doesn't carry over to next turn (Tactician with no cards in hand, Haven with nothing to set aside, Gear setting nothing aside, etc.), TR doesn't stay out because it's not tracking any doubling, right?

333

Rules Questions / Re: +Card token and when-you-play

« on: May 03, 2015, 05:03:41 pm »

When you play TR on a duration, TR is supposed to stay in play as long as it's still "doing something."  How does that work with these new rulings?

For example, if you play TR on BoM, choosing Fishing Village, then the second play will be of Fishing Village.  Does TR know that it indirectly "played" Fishing Village twice and needs to stay out?  Or does it just know it played a BoM and then played the same card that was somehow a Fishing Village the second time, and doesn't know it "doubled" a duration?

In the case TR and friends can somehow see through the BoM to see what ultimately gets played, what about this:  You KC a BoM, choosing Feast for the first play, so it'll be a BoM for the second and third plays.  Both those times, you choose it to be Fishing Village.  Does KC need to stay in play to mark that it "doubled" a Fishing Village?  Or is that just a coincidental doubling (you could have picked Fishing Village and Woodcutter, after all), so it gets discarded?

334

Rules Questions / Re: +Card token and when-you-play

« on: April 29, 2015, 09:04:21 pm »

5: I don't think it's obvious that you get the token bonus from BoM. Maybe some people would think so, but it seems to contradict 4 without having to think too much about it. If I played one card, how can I get bonuses from two piles?

This is definitely how I feel about it. I was surprised to see the ruling that tokens on the BoM pile could do anything at all in normal circumstances.

335

Rules Questions / Re: +Card token and when-you-play

« on: April 29, 2015, 03:50:07 am »

As per the ruling on Conspirator, only one card is played, and that is Woodcutter. So that's the only when-play Champion would trigger on.

We know Conspirator only sees one play of a card, but I don't think we know it shares that timing with "when play" abilities.  You can interpret it as working via a "when play" ability, but it's not phrased that way, so it could also be something with entirely different timing.

The tokens are clearly different from other when-play triggers

They're clearly different from something. The question is (ignoring that "first" wording for a moment) whether the tokens' "when play" abilities are different from all other "when play" abilities, or whether it's just that all "when play" abilities are different from Conspirator. Either would be valid as far as I can tell (and wouldn't have made a difference in anything before Adventures).

And that's the point of the Champion question. If the answer is "no extra action," that seems to mean your interpretation is correct and that some "when play" is different from other "when play." If the answer is "extra action," then that seems to mean all "when play" abilities share a timing (with the possible exception of that "first" thing) and Conspirator is the odd one out.

(For what it's worth, at this point, I'm leaning toward an interpretation similar to yours.)

336

Rules Questions / Re: +Card token and when-you-play

« on: April 27, 2015, 06:59:11 pm »

So, here's how I can reconcile having all current rulings on "playing stuff" work: you have a top-level instruction called "Play a card N times."  Most things have you do it with N = 1, but Throne Room and friends have N = 2 or N = 3.

Code: [Select]

Play CARD N Times:

# Resolve any BoM-style effects
while CARD has any "play this as" effects:
A. if there are any +1 Bonus tokens on CARD's pile, process their instructions
CARD becomes whatever you're playing it as


move CARD into play

# "Lock in" Throne Room's idea of the card
INSTRUCTIONS = CARD's current instructions

N times:
B. resolve any "when you play" instructions (including tokens)
record "play" count for Conspirator, Crossroads, etc.
carry out INSTRUCTIONS
The issue I have is with the two steps labeled A and B.  You must process +1 Bonus tokens in both those places: A to get tokens on BoM and again in B to get tokens on anything else.

And the question is: why? do those +1 tokens just have a special kind of "when you play" instruction that gets evaluated at both those times in the procedure?  Or are we actually supposed to evaluate all "when you play" instructions at both A and B?

The answer now matters for Champion (with Diadem turning Actions into coins).  If you play BoM-as-Woodcutter, do you treat Champion's "when you play" the same way you treat the token's "when you play" and evaluate at both A and B, coming out with one more action than you started with?

Or do you treat Champion's "when you play" effect differently from the tokens' "when you play" effects and only evaluate it at B, meaning you end up with the same number of actions you started with?

337

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.

« on: April 24, 2015, 01:18:35 am »

What might Adventures have looked like if it had been a Dominion spin-off instead of an expansion?

338

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Definition of Combo discussion

« on: April 22, 2015, 06:55:41 pm »

Usually I assume "nombo" means cards that have negative synergy, like Highway and Bishop.

I tend to think of a "nombo" as something you think is going to be a combo at first glance, but turns out to not work at all. Like Scheme and Treasure Map. Perhaps accompanied by a sad trombone effect when it fails.

339

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.

« on: April 21, 2015, 09:38:07 pm »

You should just take the foreign language copies and leave them in random places around your city.  Maybe throw in a cryptic letter and an unrelated cipher or something.

Because everyone should get a chance to enjoy Dominion, even bomb squad robots.

340

Rules Questions / Re: "Naming" a card

« on: April 17, 2015, 05:56:13 am »

But do you really "buy" events or do you spend a buy to use its action? I don't think you keep the card, so therefore you did not purchase it.

You do buy events.  At least, one would presume that buying an event before Messenger would make Messenger not your first buy in a turn.  It's just that buying an event will result in following its instructions, where buying a card has always resulted in gaining the card (usually).

341

Rules Questions / Re: "Naming" a card

« on: April 16, 2015, 10:12:29 pm »

To avoid confusion in this regard, just declare a null Dominion card that has no physical representation and may not be used in any game of Dominion. Define it to have all names that are not names of other Dominion cards.  (It will, of course, lose names when new cards are published.)  Then require that a player name an actual Dominion card, including the null card, whenever any Dominion card instructs him or her to name a card.  Problem solved.

And hey, we get a new Dominion card for free that way.

342

Dominion: Adventures Previews / Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance

« on: April 15, 2015, 12:08:00 pm »

I think the most sensible ruling would be to ignore tokens on the BoM pile.  The card is actually from that pile, sure, but you play it as if it were a different card in the supply, and thus also as if it were from that other pile.

Agreed.

You are only playing one card.

Exactly. So why would BoM-Woodcutter be checking for tokens twice, which it would need to do to get bonuses from both piles? (Unless it were simultaneously from both piles; but Donald's last post kinda rules that out.)

343

Dominion: Adventures Previews / Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance

« on: April 15, 2015, 11:02:15 am »

Neither does your hypothetical card gain two silvers. But Lost Arts give you +1 action.

The ruling says you'd get the +1 Action if you played BoM-as-Woodcutter while the +1 Action token is on the Woodcutter pile.  The ruling also says you'd somehow get the +1 Action if you played BoM-as-Woodcutter while the token is on the BoM pile.

Now, say you're using two different +1 Bonus tokens; one's on the BoM pile and the other's on the Woodcutter pile. If you play BoM-as-Woodcutter, the ruling implies you get both bonuses. Apparently, playing BoM-as-Woodcutter triggers "when you play" effects on two separate occasions: once when it's from the BoM pile, and once when it's from the Woodcutter pile.

But, with hypothetical Silver-gaining card, you say you play BoM-as-Woodcutter and it only triggers "when you play" effects once.

Where are you saying the difference is?

344

Dominion: Adventures Previews / Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance

« on: April 15, 2015, 09:16:40 am »

I think the "Throne BoM, how many +Actions for a token on BoM" question comes down to this specific already-special-cased Throne / BoM interaction. You get at least +1 Action, since BoM itself gives you that.

Ok, so, you're saying that, in some sense, you do play BoM when you play it as something else. Just a little bit. Not enough for Conspirator to notice that you played two actions, but enough for the +1 Action token to notice playing two different things.

That's the confusion: different things both say they're looking for something being "played," but they now have different interpretations of what "play" means. Or some are more observant than others.

So... can all "when you play" effects see you sorta-playing BoM? Like, if you had in play a card that read "While this is in play, when you play an Action card, gain a Silver," and you played BoM-as-Woodcutter, would you gain two Slivers? (If Conspirator were watching, wouldn't it think that was a magic trick?)

Or is this just another special-case ruling for BoM with the "when you play" on the +1 Action token (and its friends, presumably)?

345

Dominion: Adventures Previews / Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance

« on: April 14, 2015, 12:30:47 am »

When you play BoM, first you check whether the BoM pile has a +1 Action token.  If it does, the BoM card essentially becomes a card that reads:

+1 Action
<Text of BoM card>.

So you get any +1 Action before you even begin to read what the BoM card's text says.

Ah, but the text on BoM is completely unlike the text on any other card. It's not really an "on play" instruction; it happens before you would be following the card's "on play" instructions, if it had any. It's comparable to Trader happening before a gain; it's a "would play" effect:

Treating it like Trader, when you *would* play Band of Misfits, you *instead* play another card. That happens *before* playing the card.

I think that's moot, though, because the presence of the +1 Action token doesn't actually modify the text of the cards; it just gives you +1 Action when you play (but before you start carrying out instructions on) a card that meets its criterion. The thing that's weird is that the game can ever catch you "playing" a BoM in the first place.

346

Dominion: Adventures Previews / Re: Previews #5 - Lost Arts, Borrow, Inheritance

« on: April 13, 2015, 11:20:28 pm »

Band gives you benefits both from tokens on itself, and tokens on the card you play it as. You play Band as a specific card, which is from a specific pile.

This is kinda weird. It seems like BoM should not normally be looking at its own pile because you normally don't play BoM itself. Especially given that you've said things like this (hope I'm not taking it out of context):

I think the key difference is that to me, you cannot play a BoM (unless no cheaper cards are in the supply). When you (try to) play it is always something else that you played. You didn't play a BoM. Anything that cares about you playing a BoM does not see that you did; you played whatever you picked instead.

Or maybe the idea is just that the card you played is simultaneously "from" both the BoM pile and the pile of the card it's being played as? Like a multi-homed card?

At any rate, when you have your +1 Action token on the BoM pile and you use Throne Room to play a Band of Misfits as, say, Woodcutter, do you get +2 Actions (meaning the card was from the BoM pile both times it was played as Woodcutter) or just +1 Action (meaning it was from the BoM pile until it "became" Woodcutter, at which point it was no longer from the BoM pile)? Or something else?

347

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Events

« on: April 13, 2015, 06:29:18 pm »

What happens when I TR a card that has the TR token on its pile?

You're only playing it from your hand once

Are you sure?

If Throne Room's second play of a card were actually playing it from wherever it ended up after the first play, then playing Throne Room and selecting Band of Misfits played as Feast would result in playing the card from the trash... where it would no longer be Feast. But the ruling is that Throne Room "locks in" which card it was used to play, and it executes those instructions twice.

Instead, it's more like Throne Room plays the card in your hand... twice.

It's the difference between:

Code: [Select]

# won't work correctly with Band of Misfits as Feast
ThroneRoom:
Play(card)
Play(card) # from wherever it's gotten to

Play(card):
card = ModifyCardBeforePlaying(card) # just for Band of Misfits
DoCardInstructions(card)

and:

Code: [Select]

# works correctly with Band of Misfits as Feast
ThroneRoom:
PlayNTimes(card, 2)

PlayNTimes(card, n):
card = ModifyCardBeforePlaying(card) # just for Band of Misfits
n times:
DoCardInstructions(card)


348

Dominion General Discussion / Re: CARD OF THE WEEK #3: Moat

« on: April 07, 2015, 09:07:01 pm »

There's also no way to ensure that Moat will even adequately defend against an opponent attack because it has to appear in the initial 5-card hand for its reaction to work. +card durations do not alleviate this at all because they don't draw in the clean-up phase. Cards such as Courtyard, Mandarin, or Count can top-deck Moat from hand to hand, but of course these are all terminal. Top-of-deck sifters such as Cartographer, Apothecary, or Scout can increase the likelihood of Moat being in the next hand. There's also Scheme, but that requires having played the Moat.

Expedition is another thing that would increase the chances of seeing Moat in your starting hand.

349

Dominion General Discussion / Re: My Stupid Project: Re-doing all Dominion cards

« on: April 07, 2015, 08:50:31 pm »

EDIT 2015-04-07: I was wrong! Something in the new expansion Adventures triggers on drawing a card, namely the removal of a token from your deck. It has been confirmed that Library actually draws you cards, so I'll have to change this at some point.

Oh, good, you noticed. I was just coming here to point it out!

By the way, your definition for Black Market says "You may buy one of the revealed cards," but your definition of "buy a card" is only in terms of selecting and buying cards from the tops of supply piles; nothing says what it means to buy one of a set of individual cards that aren't in the supply. I know that's being especially precise, but I guess that's the whole point of your project.

And nice job!

350

Dominion General Discussion / Re: How to Teach People Dominion & Introduce New Expansions to Them

« on: April 07, 2015, 09:57:59 am »

My recommendation is to hold back showing ... Witch at first.

This was probably implied, but I guess you might also want to bend the rules and leave out Curses entirely until the first time people see Witch or something else that would make them relevant.