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Messages - Anon79

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Game Reports / Re: First win: I had read that Garden was a game-changer
« on: January 30, 2012, 01:57:47 am »
Having said that, I'd have been tempted in this set to play for Alchemists with this set, running off one Woodcutter, two potions, money, and as many alchemists as you can buy. Its not as fast as the most efficient garden strategies, but then I don't think the most efficient garden strategies were available this game.
Much easier to go for the Alchemist route.
Gardens was definitely the right call here, so by making that choice you definitely played better than your opponent, I say.
Best of 5 gogo.

Seriously, I think some of the advice given, while well-meaning, will be quite lost on the OP. So he asks on this board "did I play well or was I just lucky", to which "Workshop is a better enabler than Woodcutter for Gardens" doesn't really fly does it? Because while we vets know how Woodcutter/Gardens works, how to play it, and how it isn't on an elite level of Gardens enabler, the OP's game suggests that he doesn't. (e.g. open Woodcutter/Garden and then buy Woodcutter on $5, that can't be right!)

To the OP, I'd say this: when going for a Gardens strategy, the advice "don't buy copper" should generally be disregarded; usually Coppers are bad because they stop you drawing $8 in one hand, but in a Gardens strategy you shouldn't be doing that.

Each Gardens enabler plays differently, and you need to be comfortable with how they function. While most seek to empty out the three piles of Gardens, Estates, and itself, some enable you to grab a few Duchies along the way (notably Ironworks) while some others usually can't. Also, for the $3 enablers of Woodcutter and Workshop, you usually don't open Garden/X but rather X/X and then go for the Gardens Turn 3 onwards (or even later). "Even-ing out" your enabler and Gardens purchases is usually a bad idea.

Trader/Gardens is a whole new story, because not only does your enabler cost $4 (which means you can't open with 2 Traders), you don't usually want to empty the Trader pile (although Silver(!) pile is possible especially if your opponent also has Trader). Also, a high concentration of Silvers means that not only can you buy some Provinces, you might even find after a few turns that you can actually get your fair share of Provinces even if you lose the Gardens-split? I think very few of us are expert in Trader/Gardens at this moment and some experimentation is still possible.

But back to Woodcutter/Gardens, which is what you played: primarily you want a few Woodcutters to start. Then you start greening by buying up nothing but Gardens (Coppers with extra buys) until the Gardens deck is exhausted. When that is done, you evaluate to see whether rushing out the Estates + one other pile wins you the game, or whether you need to actually switch out and try for a few Duchies too. This makes a difference when you have $5 and two buys: should it be Woodcuter + Estate, Estate + Estate, or Duchy + Copper? The decision depends on how well your opponent's deck is going, whether he is going for the same strategy, whether he has the capability to end the game soon, etc.

But generally you don't have the luxury of dipping into other stacks like Walled Villages or Envoys. As explained by other posters, they are near useless in any dedicated Gardens deck (other than adding to deck size), and simply giving your opponent more time to get Golds, Provinces and Duchies while you are unable to end the game on 3-piles.

Whatever strategy you do adopt, try to play it to the best of its ability first and not get into the finer points of whether Woodcutter/Gardens or Trader/Gardens or Woodcutter/Trader/Gardens is better. Once you can play all 3 of the strategies competently, you will be able to form your own opinion on the matter.

M/m/inn on a board with a high power seven was mentioned above, but I think the math doesn't work - you get 6 if you draw the inn (handsize reduction means you can't play both mandarins and keep a copper) and 4 if you don't.
The 6 buys a Gold, I was not implying that you can purchase the Forge on the first reshuffle. It's just that Forge then has an easy time matching both 5+3 (Mandarin + Silvers) & 6+2 (Gold + Estates), and you can start greening immediately upon getting the Forge and maybe even before getting the Forge.

Game Reports / Re: My best game yet, now tear me down. :)
« on: January 29, 2012, 04:18:42 am »
Tear you down? Sure, why don't we take a look at turn 9:

Code: [Select]
   VulturesRow draws 2 cards and gets +1 buy from the Wharf.
   VulturesRow plays an Expand.
   ... trashing a Silver.
   ... gaining a Gold.
   VulturesRow plays 2 Coppers and a Silver.
   (VulturesRow draws: a Copper, 2 Estates, a Gold, and a Silver.)

Why not just buy that Gold direct?

Game Reports / Re: First win: I had read that Garden was a game-changer
« on: January 28, 2012, 10:56:13 pm »
Trader and Woodcutter together aren't bad. If you draw both in the same hand, so much the better - use Woodcutter's extra buy on Copper, reveal Trader, presto cheap Silver.

So I would start Trader + Woodcutter on 4/3, then react differently (going for slightly different Gardens strategies) depending on whether opponent is splitting Gardens with me (4-4), or just denying me some (likely 6-2) but going for Provinces.

Dominion Isotropic / Re: Attention-whoring thread.... I did it!!
« on: January 28, 2012, 10:20:50 pm »
I think I might hit Level 30 soon, the way I'm playing. I'm currently 35.

Rules Questions / Re: Trader with Torturer
« on: January 27, 2012, 04:53:39 am »
Agree with Jeebus. The Curse from Torturer doesn't ever reach your discard pile; similarly when you play Mine or Explorer, the treasure you gain doesn't ever go through your discard pile. The gained card goes straight to hand.

Open Mandarin/Mandarin/Inn on a Forge board.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Ill-Gotten Gains - bad for the game?
« on: January 26, 2012, 11:10:15 pm »
My favourite part of chwhite's game: with Chapel on the board, the following happens!

Code: [Select]
--- Obi Wan Bonogi's turn 1 ---
Obi Wan Bonogi plays 2 Coppers.
Obi Wan Bonogi buys a Duchess.

Rules Questions / Re: What is the "lose track" rule?
« on: January 26, 2012, 09:59:49 pm »
Seems like you're right. The only way you can top-deck BV + (the other card) in either order on top of the deck is if the BV is allowed to be found again, after it was momentarily "lost" when the other card sat on top of it in the discard pile before Watchtower was revealed.

Rules Questions / Re: What is the "lose track" rule?
« on: January 26, 2012, 12:33:15 pm »
WT can't dig deeper than one card however, so you can only put the Duchy on top.

Everything you said was correct except for this. It's easy to think that lose-track is stopping you from also moving the BV after you moved the Duchy, but as I just quoted, Donald ruled that you can. (It's only if you choose to leave the Duchy there, on top of the BV, that you can't. But, in that case it would behoove you to move the BV before gaining the Duchy, so it doesn't matter in practice.)
Refer to Donald's post on BGG, quoted by Davio on the 2nd post of the thread. Hmm, does that mean he has ruled both ways...??!!

Rules Questions / Re: General timing rule (Mandarin + Royal Seal)
« on: January 26, 2012, 09:17:19 am »

Isn't there an on-buy version too: buying Mint with Talisman & Quarry in play?

As far as I can see, all of the cases involving Mint, Talisman, Quarry and Royal Seal neither confirms or refutes the rule.

Play Talisman and Quarry, buy Mint. Talisman's when-buy and Mint's when-buy trigger. You do Talisman's first, so you gain another Mint. Then Mint's when-buy, trashing alle the Treasures. Now if you did Mint's first, trashing the Talisman, would you still gain another Mint? You would if this rule is correct. But since you can just choose to do Talisman's when-gain first, I don't think this has ever come up.

Play Talisman, Quarry and Royal Seal, buy Mint. Talisman's when-buy and Mint's when-buy trigger. You do Talisman's first, so you gain another Mint. Now Royal Seal's when-gain triggers for the second Mint, so you put it on your deck. The first Mint's when-buy happens, trashing all Treasures. Then the first Mint's when-gain happens, but now there's no Royal Seal in play. The rule wasn't invoked on this one, since the Royal Seal's when-gain never triggered for the first Mint.
Bolded the part where it does occur. If Talisman's does occur, you cannot choose to refuse the second Mint by resolving Mint's effect first.

Rules Questions / Re: General timing rule (Mandarin + Royal Seal)
« on: January 26, 2012, 04:15:14 am »
Isn't there an on-buy version too: buying Mint with Talisman & Quarry in play?

Game Reports / Re: Good Luck and a Small Deck
« on: January 26, 2012, 02:37:08 am »
You don't need +buys on a no-draw Forge board. You're usually not going to have enough coin to use +buys.

Ordinarily you don't really want to trash Estates willy-nilly in a Forge engine, because $2 is a useful building block. Consider your deck after you trashed your 3rd Estate on Turn 8: 6 Coppers, 1 Trade Route, 2 Silvers, 2 Quarries, 1 Trading Post, 1 Forge. 3 cards cost $3, 2 cards cost $4, 1 card cost $5. The only way to Forge Platinums from that is 4+5 or 3+3+3. Granted you managed both eventually, but if you had retained one Estate then you have the option of 4+3+2 or even 7+2 if you bought another Forge (quite likely with 2 Quarries).

Of course, the fact that you went Trading Post means that 3+3+3 is somewhat more likely to happen, and also can be done in stages. So in a way your buying and using of Trading Post means that trashing Estates is more acceptable, whereas 3+3+3 is pretty unlikely otherwise in no-draw Forge games. My preferred play on Turn 8 is Forge everything into Counting House, though.

As you pointed out, luck smiled on you nearer the end of the game, having your $11 clump together on at least 2 occasions where they were more likely to have been separated.

Help! / Re: Play Mistakes
« on: January 25, 2012, 09:13:32 pm »
Well, it's non-trivial because of the presence of Fairgrounds; it's a breeze to get Fairgrounds to 4VP, and some concerted Border Villaging might even get them up to 6VP. On such boards where the game *might* drag a little longer than I expected, my instinct is to go for a little more control; in an Apprentice strategy that means a little more fuel, and since Border Villages are on this board (which I *will* get for the fuel sometimes, in place of Gold) then that also pushes me more towards buying that Moat.

Oh, and Watchtower doesn't conflict with terminals.

Help! / Re: Play Mistakes
« on: January 25, 2012, 01:31:18 pm »
The Apprentice/nothing vs Apprentice/Moat is an interesting thought. I figured I could use the early +2 Cards terminal with minimal risk to drawing my Aprentice dead and later trash it to apprentice like an extra estate. Perhaps that as the wrong thought.
I think Moat is fine. Since you are likely to be picking up Fishing Village at some point, Moat isn't that bad at all.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: January 25, 2012, 12:41:32 am »
"Single tunnel", if faced against single-militia-BM without tunnels, will either buy additional tunnels or buy a militia, transitioning out of single tunnel.

Game Reports / Re: Slow Embargo Death
« on: January 24, 2012, 10:57:55 pm »
Yeah, but I like Forge better in games where you can draw to a decent handsize, otherwise it's sooo slow...

What do you Forge with a hand of Market, 3 Coppers and an Estate? Do you take a Treasury, Bank, Estate or another Forge?
I can't open the game, so I am speaking generally.

In a Colony game, the obvious route is trash (Market, Estate, 3 x Copper) into a Forge or an Expand. You later turn this into Platinum. Given that your deck is mature enough to afford a Forge in the past, in a Colony game usually the 3 Coppers and Estates are liabilities, while the single Market is unimportant compared to the benefit you get from having another Forge or Expand.

In a non-Colony game, $7's are bad unless you have things like Upgrades or trash-for-benefits, in which case they become very good. If I'm doing a Forge-centred strategy without those then that $5 Market wants to be paired with a $3, so don't combine it with Estate. I would usually play it first, but if for some reason I can't or don't want to play it then I turn (3 x Copper, Market) into another $5. The $5 may be Market if there are no better $5's - or it could even be Duchy!

Rules Questions / Re: Reveal question
« on: January 19, 2012, 08:58:57 pm »
On the other hand:

Player A plays Torturer. Kuildeous grumbles, shuffles. Player A ends turn, Player B begins turn.
Player B looks expectantly at Kuildeous, waiting for him to discard or gain Curse.
Player A: "Why aren't you playing?" Kuildeous: "Hmm... can I safely guess another Torturer is coming?"

Game Reports / Re: Double Golden Deck
« on: January 19, 2012, 08:53:48 pm »
He is up in points, and since there are an even number of Provinces, Golds, Duchies, and Estates left, as well as more than 10 other $5-cost cards, he can just mirror whatever Hampuse does without risking Hampuse ending the game on his turn. So Dr Hades has actually won as of Turn 12.
So if Ham moves to a 6-card deck, you move to a six-card deck too, and mirror his shuffling?

Would have been interesting if your opponent had gotten Lookout earlier, say by opening Lookout/Tunnel in response to Militia. Now Tunnel isn't a blank card.

Dominion Isotropic / Re: Level 6s pulling 4 provinces in 13 turns
« on: January 18, 2012, 01:02:11 am »
Also remember that "Level 0" equates to "Level 25 +- 25."  Someone as good as a level 30 will play their first 100 or so games getting to level 20 (unless they get extremely lucky).
It doesn't take that long.

There was another thread on "how long does it take you to reach your level if you had to start anew" and the answer given was that it should be very fast, because that's how the rankings are supposed to work. The empiricist in me decided that I needed to actually try it... check out "half125" on the isotropic leaderboard. There was one bad loss via Ambassador where I really should have done better, but for the most part I think you get to level 20 in far less than 100 games. About 20-30 games should do it.

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: MIT Mystery Hunt Dominion Puzzle
« on: January 18, 2012, 12:50:37 am »
All this "full solution" thing kinda took me aback a little. I would have thought the more natural way of "solving" it - especially for people who frequent here - is to check CouncilRoom after figuring out a few cards (in the off-chance the game was played on isotropic)? Unless the rules of the Hunt somehow forbids that?

Game Reports / Re: Mining in a Colony Game: Don't Buy Silver?
« on: January 17, 2012, 09:08:02 pm »
Slightly better trashing? But opponent opened Remake!

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: MIT Mystery Hunt Dominion Puzzle
« on: January 17, 2012, 07:54:19 am »
I worked on this puzzle with rspeer and roed. It's a slick puzzle; we never did figure out how to distinguish between Jester and Swindler. The main gripe we had was that ATZERODTORVOLOKHEG really does not look like anything.
With Jester you gain cards in your deck that you never bought.

Dominion Articles / Re: Deck Archetypes
« on: January 17, 2012, 06:13:12 am »
Oh, and you're all wrong about the Big Money interaction with cursing attacks...
Go on then, leave us all in suspense. :P

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