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951

Game Reports / After the Minion

« on: June 20, 2014, 04:16:55 am »

Code: [Select]

Transmute, Apothecary, Chancellor, Sage, Warehouse, Procession, Library, Merchant Guild, Minion, Rabble
Just played this game (Province/Estates): log here

I opened Silver/Warehouse into Minions, while my opponent got Sage-Potion into Apothecary into Minions. We split the Minions 5-5 (I bought another Warehouse along the way). At that point I had no idea what to do, so I picked up a Merchant Guild for the buys/coin tokens and started on Provinces, picking up Warehouses when I couldn't buy Province.

My deck degraded rapidly, and I make a huge error on turn 15 by discarding a hand with Merchant Guild with Minion, should have picked up two Warehouse/Sages here for 2 coin tokens, which would have been key to Provincing with my terrible deck. Did Sage have a place in my deck? At one point and in what numbers?

My opponent picked up two Transmutes shortly after the Minions ran out, at least one when you could have bought Apothecary instead. What should my opponent have done after the Minions ran out, and what strategies were generally called for on this board? I spiked two provinces at the end which won the game for me. Thanks for the help!

952

Dominion Articles / Re: Kingdom Design

« on: May 16, 2014, 10:40:21 pm »

An engine that has everything it needs is less interesting than an engine that is lacking something.  Some people go to great lengths to set up a kingdom that hands an engine on a platter including a plethora of + Card, + Action and +Buy in addition to a payload of some sort.  Those types of games are not as interesting as the engine using Expand for +Buy or the engine with only Tactician for +Card or the engine with no Village.  Putting limitations on a kingdom enhances how a player thinks about and ultimately responds to a given kingdom.  It forces them to think about the trade-offs and viability and ultimately is a harder test of skill to pull it off successfully.

I'd add trashing above. Engines with no trashing or awkward trashing can be tricky to pull off too.

953

Goko Dominion Online / Re: Goko Dominion Salvager Discussion

« on: April 09, 2014, 08:35:27 pm »

The probability of 5 copper on top (or bottom) of the starting deck is around 8-9%. Would you really choose an opening that you think has a 91+% chance to be worse than other options?  Unless I screwed up the math badly, I think that good players would rarely if ever let "what if he has 5/2?" influence their opening.

Chance of 5/2 or 2/5 is 1 in 6. See, e.g., http://mathlaoshi.com/2011/10/13/dominion-starting-hand-probabilities/.

954

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)

« on: April 09, 2014, 06:20:27 pm »

Craftsman
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may spend a Trade token. If you do, gain a card costing up to $5. Otherwise, +1 Card, +1 Action, and take a Trade token.

Cards that grant different numbers of actions can be hard to track. With this version you have to remember whether you used it for the +1 action. Would it be too strong if it always gave +1 Action? As in:

+1 Action. You may spend a Trade token. If you do, gain a card costing up to $5. Otherwise, +1 Card, and take a Trade token.

Edit: One possible problem with it giving +1 Action all the time is that it may be too good at gaining Duchies. A connected Tournament and Rebuild are the only nonterminals I can think of that gain Duchies.

955

Goko Dominion Online / Re: Goko Dominion Salvager Discussion

« on: April 08, 2014, 03:19:40 pm »

"These people are going to cheat anyway, so let's enable them" doesn't sound very compelling to me. The fact that it's so tedious to do these things manually is a significant deterrent to doing them. For example, if a VP counter had never been implemented, I'm guessing (guessing!) that SheCantSayNo would still be playing Dominion Online and would probably not be making a habit of reading through the log every game in order to tally the score. He'd just be better at point counting.

Is reading through the log to tally the points cheating? Given the existence of a log for online play, reading through the log does not seem like cheating. Having a log of at least the most recent turn is highly beneficial for online play, and like many other aspects of online play it is necessarily different from playing with physical cards.

As a consequence online play involves different skills. For example, in playing with physical cards, I have never accidentally trashed a Province with Hermit due to a misclick.

956

Goko Dominion Online / Re: Goko Dominion Salvager Discussion

« on: April 01, 2014, 08:49:34 pm »

There's no reason to victimize yourself into second-class citizenship. It's already perfectly possible to put people who disable the point-counter on your blacklist, and in fact I've been consistently doing just that. It's no judgment about anyone, it's just preventing myself from facing experiences I don't enjoy. If anything this suggested automatch feature would make the whole process more civil, because right now the people on my blacklist have no way of getting off it if they happen to change their mind.

Wow, that is awful when combined with the group blacklist function. If enough people do this, suddenly people who play #vpoff (the default way to play the game) are blacklisted by everybody that has, say, "Blacklist the 10% most blacklisted players" enabled. Way to abuse that feature.

The best solution seems to be the suggested automatch feature. But in the absence of that, perhaps the "blacklist the 10% most blacklisted players" option should only count players as being blacklisted if that player is blacklisted on more than automatch alone. If you don't care enough to kick someone when that person joins your games or to censor that person in the lobby, it's probably an issue like differing point counter preference rather than actual bad experiences.

After a bad recent experience, I'm now using the "blacklist the 10% most blacklisted," but I'd hate to miss potential games just because some people have been blacklisted for not wanting the vp counter.

957

Goko Dominion Online / Re: Furious

« on: March 28, 2014, 03:52:10 am »

I just went on here and searched tgorm just to see if anyone else had been slow rolled by him - lo and behold, I wasn't the only one!  Also saw another guy in the chat room complaining about him slow playing after he was obviously beat later on that day.

Nobody needs to hear the specifics (he thought I was getting lucky, he made some bad choices at the beginning which contributed to him being unlucky, he curses, then the slow plays.....).

Anyway, for anyone still looking at this thread - tgorm.  Don't play him.  Honestly, do yourself a favor and don't do it.

I just played tgorm.  What a nightmare.  He got a 2/5 he didn't like, so he started complaining about it and then started calling me names and to "sit and wait like a bitch".  I never even said anything.  All this because he didn't like his 2/5.  I blacklisted him with the extension, but oh my god what a psycho.

I'm currently being slow played by tgorm because he said I was playing too slow (and I'm beating him, which is probably the real reason he's mad). Time to start using the Salvager extension auto black list the worst 10% after this game. And him, of course. Haven't had an experience this bad yet, which is why I wasn't using the auto black list.

Edit- after about 25 minutes of him discarding one card every few minutes to Warehouse, he quit. Victory for the forces of good.

958

Goko Dominion Online / Re: Dominion Online set selection

« on: March 24, 2014, 07:32:01 pm »

I really need some clarification here. Is there really a perception that people are attempting to game the kingdom when playing casual??? In the last year and a half I have NEVER come across a kingdom where I thought someone set it up for the express purpose of exploiting some secret combo or evil pin.

Isn't it more likely just sour grapes? You got beat and you didn't see the winning strategy so it must be that the other person did something nefarious rather than just beat you?

I've certainly had someone say "you must have played this kingdom before" when I just saw that Beggar combos with Duke. But I've also had someone say "you must know the correct opening but the kingdom looks fun anyway" on joining a (randomly generated) game (and then beat me!).

If you are looking for a game with an opponent with a relatively high rating, it is much easier to find a pro game than a casual game. It's hard for me to say why people who play essentially all pro games don't play casual, but I have to imagine that the idea of an equal footing is a part of it. The thin market for casual games also means that even if you generate a kingdom in a random way you often end up waiting a few minutes for someone to join and get to think about how you would play for that time which gives a slight advantage in practice.

959

Game Reports / My Apothecary Engine That Couldn't

« on: March 24, 2014, 03:12:41 am »

Code: [Select]

Poor House, Duchess, Pearl Diver, Apothecary, Lookout, Oracle, Baron, Feodum, Militia, Wandering Minstrel
Game log. Province/Estates. This is a rare board with no 5+ cost Kingdom card and we both open 5/2.

Having never played Apothecary before (since I don't own Alchemy and am new to pro games), I try to build an apothecary engine with Baron for payload (opening Potion/Pearl Diver) and TheMirrorMan beats me with Wandering Minstrel-Oracle-Poor House with 1 Baron and Lookout for trashing (opening Poor House/Militia).

He takes 8 of the Wandering Minstrels which dooms my deck due to the lack of filtering. On turn 13 I get Apothecary-Province over double Province which seems like a big mistake. I didn't realize just how much Apothecaries would stall as I greened, and with little filtering, it's not doing that much.

Was my idea of an Apothecary engine reasonable? On 4/3 I'd have opened Oracle-Potion. Is Lookout/Militia the right call for the Poor House engine on 4/3? If I'm right that losing the Minstrel split 8-2 was key, how should I have played differently to get enough Minstrels once I saw his strategy?

960

Goko Dominion Online / Re: Dominion Online set selection

« on: March 24, 2014, 02:53:41 am »

I wonder exactly how much it would bother people if you had to own all the sets to host pro games (but didn't need the promos). If casual is rated then it's all just a tag, the fact that those games are labelled pro games. Without all the sets, you can host all the rated games you want, you can play in pro games you didn't host, but can't host the games (thus, no pro games vs. bots either).

It's the kind of thing I could see Making Fun consider because it encourages buying everything. The question would be, does it piss people off. I don't think the promos could be part of it.

As someone who at times hosts pro games and owns multiple (but not all) expansions, this would be extremely annoying. There's a much thinner market for casual 2p games than for pro 2p games. Part of the reason for this is that people have are suspicious that every kingdom in casual is designed or is something you practiced multiple previous times. Pro games are a solution to that whether you own all the cards or not.

It seems much more reasonable to simply have the number of sets that each person owns displayed when they host a game. I state which sets I have in the game title, but not everyone does and this would ensure that no one is surprised to be playing a base-only pro game.

Edit: A further problem with not letting people host pro games unless they own all of the sets is that unless you own all of the sets you won't be able to play, say, 20 pro games against bots to get a decent ranking so that you can start playing human opponents with rankings filters.

961

Goko Dominion Online / Re: Dominion Online set selection

« on: March 23, 2014, 10:30:14 pm »

One suggestion is:
The host of a pro game chooses whether the Kingdom will be generated according to "black list mode" (and this is a visible characteristic of the game). If so, each player's list of (up to) three cards won't be included in the Kingdom (when the game starts it lists which cards each player vetoed).

If a pro game is not generated in "black list mode", then only cards that are on every player's "black list" list will be vetoed. A tournament's rules might require not using black list mode, for example.

Additionally, no cards from the base set can be black listed. For the other cards, there is a worry that people will not purchase, say, Cornucopia if they will be forced to play Tournament in "pro" games. With the base set that concern doesn't apply.

962

Game Reports / Re: How would you play this kingdom?

« on: March 23, 2014, 07:03:41 pm »

Here is the Beggar-Gardens vs. engine game I just played. The Gardens player has no way to end the game and once the engine gets going (ensuring consistency via Herald overpays) he has 3 green cards in hand each turn. It's just hopeless.

Side note: can you explain how you play both sides of a game with what is presumably one account? I know that Goko's Secret Chamber room lets you play solitaire games, but I don't see how to play both sides of a game in Secret Chamber. Thanks.

963

Goko Dominion Online / Re: I really really hate tournament, but how do I avoid it online?

« on: March 21, 2014, 09:17:49 pm »

What about if you can pick 3 cards to be banned in veto mode, and veto mode is optional, and it turns out that most people use it?

Presumably the host of each game would decide whether the game will use veto mode, so even if veto mode is typically used people who don't want to use veto mode can just host their own games.

964

Goko Dominion Online / Re: Goko vs TrueSkill

« on: March 21, 2014, 08:22:06 pm »

Do you have the ability to create a separate ranking for each player when going first and when going second?

Obviously going first and second evens out after a certain number of games, so there's no reason to take that into account in the ranking formula, but it would be an interesting measure of first player advantage.

965

Goko Dominion Online / Re: I really really hate tournament, but how do I avoid it online?

« on: March 21, 2014, 05:10:29 pm »

Someone who really likes a commonly banned card (let's follow this thread and suppose it is Tournament) might not want to play veto mode because that card will never show up.

I don't imagine anything will reach saturation point, but you can just force a card in casual (let's say if you try to join that game and have banned that card, it alerts you).

There are also people who just don't like the idea of a card-blacklist veto mode for pro games (Polk5440 expresses this viewpoint above). If veto mode exists they might prefer to play games without it.

966

Goko Dominion Online / Re: I really really hate tournament, but how do I avoid it online?

« on: March 21, 2014, 04:35:39 pm »

Rather than 3, how about 1 per set you own? I think it's fine to want to ban upwards of 1 in 20 cards, but potentially problematic to ban, say, Village, Festival, and Throne Room in Base-only games. Or Militia, Witch, Thief. Etc.

Both players should be able to ban one or more cards for a pro game veto mode, but it is only clear how this description applies to the person creating the game (e.g., if the person joining the game hasn't bought any cards, they should still get an equal opportunity to veto).

I could imagine a more complicated veto mode along the lines of what you're describing here as follows: the host of a game can activate Veto Mode (X cards), where X can't be greater than, for example, the number of sets they own. Then each player has a list of potentially banned cards and it takes the first X from that list as the banned cards.

I'm not sure it would even to need to be an option, or that it causes issues with tournaments. For sure if it doesn't cause issues it should be allowed in tournaments.

Someone who really likes a commonly banned card (let's follow this thread and suppose it is Tournament) might not want to play veto mode because that card will never show up.

Well it sounds reasonable, but where do the commonly hated cards fall? I can see some people really wanting to nuke more than one Intrigue or Dark Ages card.

I think LastFootnote meant that you can ban 1 card for each set that you own, but you can distribute those banned cards however you want across those sets (if you own base and Dark Ages you can ban Cultist and Rebuild, for example).

967

Goko Dominion Online / Re: I really really hate tournament, but how do I avoid it online?

« on: March 21, 2014, 04:08:52 pm »

How would people feel about a short banned cards list for Pro games? Let's say you can pick three cards, and those won't be picked in Pro games you play, whether you generate the game or someone else does.

I think it's important that people not feel punished for say buying Cornucopia. In casual games of course you should be able to ban cards you picked from being used in games you generate, rather than having to generate a new list until you get a good one. And obv. you should be able to say "5 from Seaside" and so on.

This idea to ban cards from consideration in generating the Kingdom seems like a great implementation of an optional "veto mode."

For example, the host of a pro game might choose whether the Kingdom will be generated according to "veto mode" (and this is a visible characteristic of the game). If so, each player's list of (up to) three cards won't be included in the Kingdom (and when the game starts it should list which cards each player vetoed). Then a tournament's rules might require no veto mode, for example.

968

Goko Dominion Online / Re: Goko bot strategy?

« on: March 21, 2014, 02:48:29 pm »

Not much of a combo...it turns Rats from "cantrip: turn a good card into a bad card" to "cantrip: gain a bad card". Rats is strictly worse than nothing at all, let alone Silver.

It empties a pile very fast.

The only reason I see to empty the Rats pile in this kingdom is that it will end the game with you ahead, and the only (non-Province) piles I see running out besides Rats are Duchy and Estate.  Additionally, Rats-Fortress only empties the Rats pile fast if you can draw your deck and I can't see how you draw your deck if Duchy/Estates are gone and you have a lead. So I don't see how Rats could be used as part of a strategy improving on Big Money even slightly.

969

Game Reports / Re: challenge

« on: March 20, 2014, 09:35:08 pm »

It's also worth pointing out that about 25% of Knights games on full random will use Shelters and in these games buying Dame Josephine may let you trash Hovel.

and 1/10 of all Knight games with Trade Route in it give Trade Route more potential because of dame Josephine

Actually, according to the Wiki the official FAQ states,

Dame Josephine is also a Victory card, worth 2 VP at the end of the game. The Knight pile is not a Victory pile though, and does not get a counter for Trade Route (from Prosperity) even if Dame Josephine starts on top.

970

Goko Dominion Online / Re: Goko bot strategy?

« on: March 20, 2014, 09:12:24 pm »

If I'm correct, these are the cards that you can have in a kingdom without making purchasing anything other than basic cards a move worth considering (even if you would say no in almost every situation):

Village
Fortress
Walled Village
Scheme
Throne Room
Band of Misfits
Border Village
(Wandering Minstrel)
(University)

Why not Rats?

971

Game Reports / Re: challenge

« on: March 20, 2014, 02:54:39 pm »

Imagine if you bought a Silver on T6 and your opponent handed you a Duchy instead.  That's a disaster that has a good chance of costing you the game, far worse that failing to acquire Josephine's 2 VP.  If your intuition differs, just try modifying a (non-Rebuild) simulator to prefer Duchy over Silver and watch it get crushed.

It's also worth pointing out that about 25% of Knights games on full random will use Shelters and in these games buying Dame Josephine may let you trash Hovel.

972

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Overpay for VP tokens

« on: March 19, 2014, 07:08:14 pm »

I'm not convinced of the concept, but if you want to make it work, i'd put it on an action card rather then a victory card. on a victory card it's just too similar to Province/Colony, probably either being clearly worse or clearly better.

If only this worked:

Type: Victory-Action
Cost: $3
+1 Card
+1 Action
Worth 1 VP.
For each $2 you overpay when you buy this, +1 VP token.

973

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Overpay for VP tokens

« on: March 19, 2014, 06:31:26 pm »

as is the card is horrible.

I agree that the card is rather weak and on most boards will be consolation for not hitting $5 for Duchy late game. Besides the case you mentioned with trashing, it could shine when there is huge coin generation but no + buy.

One solution could be to make the card do something besides giving VP, which would also make it more interesting.

974

Variants and Fan Cards / Overpay for VP tokens

« on: March 19, 2014, 06:19:10 pm »

I was thinking about simple ways that a card could give you VP based on the number of coins available, and overpay for VP chips seemed like an easy way to do that.

Type: Victory
Cost: $4
Worth 2 VP.
For each $2 you overpay when you buy this, +1 VP token.

I'd worry that with strong coin token generation there might be excessively long games (or even stalemates if the decks produce exactly the same number of coin tokens each turn and no one can three-pile or profitably add a new card to their deck). A limit on the number of VP tokens you can gain through the overpay would be awkward, but might avoid some of those issues.

Thoughts?

975

GokoDom / Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread

« on: March 19, 2014, 11:37:13 am »

One interesting thing from this series, when we started game 5 it came up with the wrong start player but we played it anyway under the assumption that we could reverse 6 as well with no difference. There actually was a difference since I had an option (that I didn't take) to draw game 6 knowing that I was already 3-2 up. It is worth sticking to the rules on the sequence of games 5 and 6.

There is a related potential improvement in the rules for determining who goes first.

Currently, that rule is:

Let Goko randomly determine who has the first seat in the first game.  That player will sit in the second seat in games two and three.  If more games are needed, that player will sit in the first seat in games four and five, then again in the second seat in game six.  This is more easily represented as A-B-B-A-A-B.

The alternate rule is: Let Goko randomly determine who has the first seat in the first game, third game, and fifth games. The player who goes first in game 1, 3, or 5 will go second in games 2, 4, or 6 respectively.

Compared to the current system, no restarts would be needed for games 3 and 5.