Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.

Messages - c4master

Filter to certain boards:

Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7]
151
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Discussion: Get a second curser
« on: March 03, 2014, 04:44:15 am »
Great example, thx. It also shows, how effective Tacticians can be in dealing even more damage.

Still, I wonder why you went for cutpurse before the sea hag. Could you please explain this move to me?

-------

Btw: I have been paralyzed about doubleWitch and WitchChapel being equally fine strategies. I thought ChapelWitch to be superior, but the simulations proves both to be about equally strong (in big money).
In genral, I'm overestimating trashing, I fear.
I also wonder, if you have Witch and Chapel in hand in turn 3/4, which of those would you play? With three coppers, I would tend to pülay the witch and get a silver, otherwise I would tend to trash the remaining cards and hope to get the witch played more often.

152
Dominion General Discussion / Re: hermit/feodum
« on: March 02, 2014, 07:32:39 am »
All right, that's true. Thanks.

153
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Storeroom/Gardens: Slog or Rush?
« on: March 02, 2014, 07:29:55 am »
If your oppenent decides to go for a rush/slog as well, you might lose the garden's split if you open double squire, since a squire doesn't guarantee you a garden wheras a storeroom does. In case of a mirror, I would thus probably open silver/storeroom and get a second storeroom as soon as I miss $4 (and still have $3, obviously).
Against the engine, squire might be better, especially since your oppenent might also catch up a few squires, which helps you pile out squires. So as first player, opening squire might be reasonable. If your oppenent then seems to go for the gardens, add a storeroom (you have to win the split), otherwise another squire.
Opening 2/5 would be squire/merchant guild, I guess.

154
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Uses for untrashable Rats!
« on: March 02, 2014, 07:16:33 am »
Well, Rats and Fortress is cheating.

Actually, I guess, it doesn't help you all that much. Sure, you don't have to trash your fortress, but then you still gain more rats making it less likely for your rats to align with fortress. So basically, this combo would only shine, if there were no more rats in the set. This implies, you had 10+ rats, which can't do all that much, besides being a cantrip.

Maybe you could rather build something around "on trash"-effect-cards like feodom or catacombs.

Anyways, I can't imagine any nice combo without trashing those nasty rats into something more useful.

155
Dominion General Discussion / Re: hermit/feodum
« on: February 26, 2014, 11:24:24 am »
Quote
Hermit/Feodum sounds like a pretty big nombo to me. I guess you could play Hermit-BM (aiming for Provinces) and if you gain enough Silvers have in Feodum a $4 Duchy, but that's a pretty mediocre effect.

I've sometimes even seen people open Hermit/Feodum, hoping to trash the Feodum, but I think that's really bad. Even if they do "collide" (which isn't too unlikely but still requires some amount of luck) it's not great: you forgo trashing an Estate and get 3 Silvers you might not even want--I at least generally want as little Silver in my deck as I can get away with, even when Feodum is on board. If you go BM it could be fine I guess, but who goes BM? There's usually something much better to do.

I would still consider chapel/Feodum a valid opening ? What do you think SCSN ?

Perry Green did very well in this game by taking a Feodum on T4, giving him enough money to start buying Grand Markets.

Indeed, early Feodom seems to fit better to strong trashing like chapel and then turn into something useful.

The problem with feodom is, that it's probably not a card you could rush for. It needs a lot of silvers (i.e. at least 9) to be worth it. Since you cannot pile out silver within 12 turns and gain all feodoms and a third pile, you have to play it as a slog or just take some for extra VP in the end game.
It would shine, if you got a lot of them and trashed two for the extra silvers, so your remaining 5-6 feodoms would score at least 3 points each. But that implies, that trashing is available, which most probably leeds to engine games instead of slogs. So winning by getting enough feodoms should be quite rare. You could also go for big money, but it would be quicker without those feodoms, probably.
Maybe something like mining your coppers into silvers would help the feodom. Still, the question is: How would you like the game to end? How can you get (rather: gain) enough feodoms?

I can't see, how the trashing part fits the alternative VP part. I guess, you can hardly use both parts of this card in one game.

156
Dominion General Discussion / Re: newbie question on mandarin
« on: February 21, 2014, 03:31:00 pm »
I tried some more. Here is the only AI (with Mandarin, Witch and BM), that reliably beats doubleWitch, I could find:
Code: [Select]
{
  name: 'DoubleWitchMandarin'
  requires: ['Witch', 'Mandarin']
  gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
    "Colony" if my.countInDeck("Platinum") > 0
    "Province" if state.countInSupply("Colony") <= 6 and my.countInDeck("Gold") > 0
    "Witch" if my.countInDeck("Witch") < 2
    "Duchy" if 0 < state.gainsToEndGame() <= 5
    "Mandarin" if my.countInDeck("Mandarin") < 1 and my.countInDeck("Province") > 2
    "Estate" if 0 < state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2
    "Platinum"
    "Gold"
    "Silver"
  ]
}

It archieves about 50% to 53% wins against plain doubleWitch.

Maybe it's because you should sometimes put back a silver and only buy a gold instead of a province. I'm not sure about that. The AI favors the province, though.

157
Dominion General Discussion / Re: newbie question on mandarin
« on: February 21, 2014, 01:40:14 pm »
One turn from buying Mandarin is not marginal, and the one card of anti-cycling from playing Mandarin really adds up.  If you collide and kick back the non-Mandarin card, you are delaying you playing of that card by another turn, which is significant in the case of power 5s.  Doing that with Witch is just asking to lose the Curse split 7-3.  That isn't even considering the risk of the kicked back card missing the shuffle, which would be disastrous.

I'm pretty sure that double Witch BM will crush Mandarin-Witch BM, regardless of whether you buy a second Witch there or not.

All right, i just tried it in the simulator. DoubleWitch seems to win about 67%.

I cannot see, whether this is due to losing the split or due to some other reason.

Anyways, I admit, you're right. Even if a human could play it better, he would probably lose against straight double witch.

----

More surprisingly: It doesn't even matter when you buy the Mandarin! Even after both witches, you still lose 65% of all games.

It's 50-50 if you delay the Mandarin until after your second Province.
Delaying it until after the first Province is still a disadvantage (53-47).

----

If delaying helps, this probably means, the curses are gone by that time. Still, later on, a mandarin can hardly be any better than a witch in a big money deck.
I'm going to check this again with trashing, as soon as I have enough time to do so.

158
Dominion General Discussion / Re: which expansion to get next?
« on: February 21, 2014, 01:11:50 pm »
My personal favorite is Seaside, second would probably be Hinterlands.

159
Dominion General Discussion / Re: newbie question on mandarin
« on: February 21, 2014, 01:07:41 pm »
Actually, your turns get better because of the mandarin.
Delaying your first action play by one turn actually only means: You play your action on turn 5 instead of turn 4. Otherwise you would play it on turn 4 and you would play no action on turn 5, because you don't have more than 2 (or 3, if you purchase a $2 card) action cards before your second reshuffle.
Again: Any Purchases of (action) cards don't change anything until you shuffle and draw those purchased action cards. Since the reshuffle will only be slowed marginally (one card each time you play mandarin), there's not much of opportunity cost.

And laying back a copper in the beginning is not that bad, because your money density is lower than 1. This improves the chance on getting another $5 in your next hand, and it helps balancing your turns.

If there is great trashing like chapel, things change.

----


collision: Put back the other terminal and play it next turn unless you really need to play it (see edge cases).

@eHalcyon: I bet, opening mandarin in a witch game with no villages and no chapel would be better than opening witch. Maybe someone can check this on the simulator.

160
Dominion General Discussion / Re: newbie question on mandarin
« on: February 21, 2014, 12:24:28 pm »
We should probably stop talking about 5/5/2 openings, because Mandarin isn't one. It's a Mandarin/5/2 opening.

5/5/2 would obviously be amazing if you could open, say, Mountebank/Mountebank/nothing, but you can't, because the first card is Mandarin. Would you want to open Mine/5/2 if you could? Probably not.

When you buy Mandarin with your 5, your deck gains a Mandarin and in exchange you are a turn behind on everything else, because you just doubled Turn 1. So if you went first, you're now going second plus a Mandarin, and if you went second, you're now going a turn later than your opponent plus a Mandarin.

Even if you repeat it 20 times, it's still wrong. You're not one turn behind, what counts (ecept for IGG/Inn) is the shuffle. The correct point would be "one shuffle behind", but this doesn't happen.
The truth is: Mandarin helps you in getting exactly 5 or 6 on your turns 4-6 which helps you getting more of the $5-cards BEFORE your second shuffle.

And yes, in about 75% of all games, I would gladly open Mine/5/2. Even Mandarin/5/2 is good, if there is no serious trashing and at least one other $5 card, I would like to get two of.

But you already get one of them before Shuffle 1, and if you want it that badly, you probably want to be playing it as early as possible. Most of the good $5s help generate more $5 hands on their own, and a lot of them are terminal. Sure, Mandarin is going to make it pretty likely that on turns 4-5, you'll pick up 2 more $5 cards, and you'll have three 5s and Mandarin in your second shuffle. Meanwhile, your opponent picked up his second 5 on turns 3-4, had it in his second shuffle, and used his two 5s to pick up two more on turns 5-6 before he shuffles again. You're now basically even on 5s, he's been playing them more, and you're stuck with Mandarin slowing you down which is a bad thing in the early game.
Let's check this for the base set:
Council Room --> true (+4 cards ~ +2,8 coins), but also helps the opponent
Festival --> might be true, yet no better than silver in gaining more $5-cards (you have 2+ 4 cards with an average of about 0.7 coins which roughly concludes to 5)
Laboratory --> false (you have 6 cards --> average = $4.2)
Library --> just like festival as good as silver
Market --> false (1 + 5*0.7 = 4.5 average)
Mine --> false (1 + 4*0.7 = 3.5 average)
Witch --> false (see Laboratory)

Which of these would be a "first-pick"? Witch is a trap, I'd say. Council Room is good, but only if you're desperately in need of more money and can either buy a good $6 or use the +buy. Library, festival (First-Pick?), Laboratory and Market do help, but not as much as Mandarin does:

Mandarin+Copper+3Estates --> Put back the copper and buy something for $3
Mandarin+2 Coppers+2Estates --> Put an estate back and buy the $5-card you like
Mandarin+3 Coppers+Estate --> Put 1 Copper back and buy a $5
Mandarin+4 Coppers --> Put 1 Copper back and buy a$5 or $6.

Since your money density is below 1 at that point, Mandarin is in any of these cases better then silver!

Mandarin+Terminal --> put the terminal back (except the edge cases where there is only one curse left to deal and you have a curser or where yoe need to get a special card right on this turn before the game ends (Duchy)). Delaying the play of your terminal by one turn usually doesn't change anything, but mandarin grants $3 for that, which should be enough to buy another $5.

161
Dominion General Discussion / Re: newbie question on mandarin
« on: February 21, 2014, 10:02:44 am »
We should probably stop talking about 5/5/2 openings, because Mandarin isn't one. It's a Mandarin/5/2 opening.

5/5/2 would obviously be amazing if you could open, say, Mountebank/Mountebank/nothing, but you can't, because the first card is Mandarin. Would you want to open Mine/5/2 if you could? Probably not.

When you buy Mandarin with your 5, your deck gains a Mandarin and in exchange you are a turn behind on everything else, because you just doubled Turn 1. So if you went first, you're now going second plus a Mandarin, and if you went second, you're now going a turn later than your opponent plus a Mandarin.

Even if you repeat it 20 times, it's still wrong. You're not one turn behind, what counts (ecept for IGG/Inn) is the shuffle. The correct point would be "one shuffle behind", but this doesn't happen.
The truth is: Mandarin helps you in getting exactly 5 or 6 on your turns 4-6 which helps you getting more of the $5-cards BEFORE your second shuffle.

And yes, in about 75% of all games, I would gladly open Mine/5/2. Even Mandarin/5/2 is good, if there is no serious trashing and at least one other $5 card, I would like to get two of.

162
Dominion General Discussion / Re: newbie question on mandarin
« on: February 20, 2014, 11:33:16 am »
In short: The more treasure it returns to the top of the deck, the more Mandarin slows you down.

Think of it like this:
If you return your Copper to the deck and purchase a Mandarin, you increase the number of turns between buying the Mandarin/other good $5 card and playing it.  Meanwhile, if your opponent also opens 5/2 but gets a good $5 card (let's say Witch) he can potentially play it on turn 3.  This is probably bad for you, since he's reaping the benefit of playing the Witch earlier.  It slows down your momentum, pretty much. 

That said, there are some decks that will like having a Mandarin and don't mind getting started slower, but those are probably pretty rare.  Usually, the on buy effect of Mandarin is better late in the game when you want another shot at buying Province with your Gold or something.

Welcome to the forums.

Actually, winning the split in a plain witch game with no engine depends much more on luck than on 1 turn, because you have to reshuffle your (most probably two) witches twice before the curses are gone. Since later on, a reshuffle takes about 2-3 turns, this means, you would roughly deal about 0.5 curses less. Still, the mandarin helps you on turn 4-6 to get one more witch before your second shuffle, so you would rather win one turn and thus lead by 0.5 curses. So I claim, you could actually more often than not win the curse split AND have a nice card for late game (more reliable than witches if there are no villages).

If there are villages on the board, the whole thing changes, since you can maybe play your witches more often than every other turn. Thus, it's more about who's first to play 5-6 witches, and less about who can do it more reliably.

Yet, I would probably not go for Mandarin if there is an IGG, since it deals curses faster than witches, i.e. every time you buy one. So this card doesn't depend on reshuffles and thus you are more likely to lose the split if you "waste" one turn.

Of course, strong terminal attacks like ghost ship stringly seem to favor not opening mandarin, whereas nonterminal draw cards like lab or stables seem to favor mandarin.

163
Dominion General Discussion / Re: IGG VS Engine Components
« on: February 18, 2014, 03:31:22 pm »
That's certainly true, Asper, but still the question was: IGG or Engine component?

Emptying IGG and curses to end the game doesn't seem like a strategy, which can be played as an engine. Yet, I'm not sure, whether this plays more like a slog or more like a rush.
If the Engine is strong enough to defend against this kind of play in the long run, then one should probably not help the opponent play his slog/rush. If the enginge can't defend against that slog/rush, then you'd rather do it yourself than spam your engine with IGGs.
That's just, what I suppose.

Anyways, whenever you do not go for an engine, IGG seems like a nice card (as long as there are curses to deal).

164
The idea of evaluating a board before playing is, of course, awesome. Yet, in real life, this shouldn't take forever and a day, so some kind of heuristic will help to cut the time used on this.
Let's simply take a look at one example, a pre-constructed kingdom from dark ages combined with Hinterlands:

Poor House, Crossroads, Tunnel, Storeroom, Spice Merchant, Ironmonger, Catacombs, Highway, Altar, Farmland

I played as player1 in a 2-player-game and started 3/4. As it turned out my opponent also startet 3/4, but let's forget about that.

I have checked Crossroads as a way to draw cards and get +3 Actions once a turn. Storeroom combos nicely with tunnel and Highway seems to combo with nearly everything (altar, farmland, but also the +buy from spice merchant or storeroom).
I came up with storeroom/tunnel as a beginning. In turn 3, I could discard the tunnel along with 7 other cards and get 2 crossroads. After that, I bought a Highway, which I consider now a mistake. Anyways, by some more tunnels, storerooms, crossroads, catacombs and highways, together with an ironmonger and a spice merchant later on, I managed to win the game in a megaturn with 3 buys and >30 coins, but it was really tough until that last turn.

So I would like you to correct my play on this specific board. Maybe the engine was even a bad idea and it should have been some highway/altar combo. What would you have done?

165
Dominion General Discussion / Re: How important is cycling?
« on: February 07, 2014, 02:57:17 am »
I guess, one bad point about chancellor is, that it's terminal. Being a nonterminal, it would be far more powerful. First, it couldn't collide with other terminals, and second it wouldn't collide with itself.

-----

Perhaps some staff member should change the thread subject to more properly fit the intend. It really seems to be more about sifting.

166
Dominion General Discussion / Re: How important is cycling?
« on: February 05, 2014, 01:24:52 pm »
Quote
In a 2-player-match you can take about 15-20 turns. In any non-enginge-deck you would play a card no more than 6 times, I guess. With cellars, you could play your favorite card about nearly every turn, at least 12 times, I guess. Is this worth the investment (i.e. the opportunity cost of not buying a silver)?

If your goal is to play a single terminal as many times as possible, opening Terminal/Terminal/x/x results in more plays than Terminal/Cellar/x/x*.  If your goal is to be the first person to play a terminal 5 times (and thus win a curse/junk war), Cellar/Terminal/Terminal/x will do that faster than Terminal/Terminal/x/x or Terminal/Cellar/x/x**. Make what you will of that.

In my opinion, its best to look at cycling as an overall augmentation to your deck and not as a vehicle for playing as many key terminals as possible.

*By turn 15: ~8.75 plays for T/T/x/x, vs. only ~5.75 plays for C/T/x/x. Or by turn 20, ~15 plays vs. only ~11.
**Between turns 6 and 7 for C/T/T/x, vs. between turns 7 and 8 for T/C/x/x or T/T/x/x
Well, after all, you just cannot open Terminal/Terminal, if it costs 4 or 5.

A cellar or warehouse is doing a number of things at the same time. Let's look at those one by one.
- Reducing the hand size by 1 card. This is an overhead cost for the use of the cellar. This can make the cellar worse than nothing. Put it together with a trashing card such as bishop and you could easily have too few cards left in hand.
- It sifts/selects cards. This is more useful if you have different quality or different types of card you want to play. Cellar may not be a good a card to put with bishop since drawing the bishop will change the type of card you need in hand. Warehouse is a much stronger sifter of cards since you get the decision to discard after making the draw.
- It cycles the deck so you shuffle more often. This can be a good thing if you have key cards you want to play more often or your deck is steadily improving. This can be a bad thing if your deck is getting worse with green cards or curses. With a cellar you can choose how many cards to discard and whether you will draw past the end of your deck or not, which can provide advantage.

When you buy a cellar you are making a judgement across those three separate points. If you can increase your hand size then all those points improve.

The danger of taking a cellar as an opening card instead of silver is that you miss out on early spending and deck development. Key cards often come at cost 5 and gold is usually important at 6. There is no point cycling your cards if they are all mediocre. In decks where silver is going to be a bad card or you are not bothered by initial spending then yes you can look for alternatives such as wishing well or cellar.

(looks like Markusin said all this just before me, nevermind!)

I just picked your answer, because it has been easier for me to understand compared to Markusin's.

So one point is, that we really need an early acceleration in order to buy many $5 or $6 cards. Question is, whether you can afford one more turn before doing so, since cellar let's you skip some (hopefully bad) turns later on. The reduction of the hand size really is a big letdown, but otherwise it was just cellaring through your deck until you find what you need, which would be too strong.

-------

So do you think, markusin, a card being a little weaker than your ranger, with chosing only one card out of two, would still be worth buying?
I'm questioning because you probably have in hand at least 1 or two cards being worse than your "average", whatever that is. So I guess, chances are high, that you will at least discard one card for a - hopefully - better one. There's still the hand size reduction with cellar.

167
Dominion General Discussion / How important is cycling?
« on: February 05, 2014, 07:41:58 am »
First of all, hello to everybody, as I'm new to this forum.

Lately, I've thought about cellar being one of these cards, players tend to ignore (except for tunnel/cellar combo). This also applies to the qvist ranking, where cellar takes a rather boring place (10th-13th). The card description on dominionstrategy talks a bit about synergies with non-terminal card drawers like laboratories.

Figuring out whether these cases are the only ones where cellar can shine, I generalized the question to: "How much does it help to cycle through your deck?" or rather "In which cases..."

I ended up thinking, that cycling helps you to play your action cards more often wihtout the risk of collisions.

So, generally speaking, cycling cards like cellar, inn, warehouse and so on help strategies with terminals you want to play as often (or as soon) as possible. Such terminals would especially be cursers, but also stuff like monument or bishop.

I guess one big letdown is, that engine decks allow you to play these cards even more than once per turn. Still, if I am planning any engine, say around bishop, is it then a mistake to open bishop/cellar? Is it worth to cycle through your deck, just to play that card more often?

In a 2-player-match you can take about 15-20 turns. In any non-enginge-deck you would play a card no more than 6 times, I guess. With cellars, you could play your favorite card about nearly every turn, at least 12 times, I guess. Is this worth the investment (i.e. the opportunity cost of not buying a silver)?

Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7]

Page created in 1.804 seconds with 18 queries.