Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.

Messages - funkdoc

Filter to certain boards:

Pages: 1 ... 13 14 [15] 16
351
yeah, i still can't do anything with this until the CPU usage is fixed.  my computer is no slouch (it can stream and record lossless AVIs at the same time) yet it gets taxed to heck by this...

still, progress is progress.  here's hoping the next release makes it good enough for me to stream!

352
Goko Dominion Online / Re: Breakdown of new expansion costs
« on: June 18, 2015, 10:09:31 am »
the thing with stash is that i feel like the good combos with it are rare enough to be fun, if you have all the cards anyway

353
Dominion General Discussion / Re: About kingmaking
« on: June 13, 2015, 09:27:49 am »
Are you allowed or required to bid on plants you don't need? If yes, how is it different from resources you don't need?

the idea is that if you're the only one left who can bid against someone for a top plant, you have to "police" the game essentially.  make sure the plant goes for something close to fair market value.  a lot of high-level power grid is policing, really - think of starting builds and why it's bad to have 3 players right next to each other.

i will say that the auction issue is less widely agreed upon than the others, as i have seen good players not bid on others' plants at all if they're dead.  what many don't like is the element of luck that adds...if some top-notch plant doesn't show up until it's down to one player who can win and one player who can't, not bidding can throw the game to them.  bidding on the plant makes it more similar to what would happen if other players were still in the auction, and power grid has plenty of variance already so people tend to like that.

Quote
This sounds strange to me. So if you don't have a shot at winning, you essentially switch into dummy mode? Might as well leave the game and have an algorithm play your last moves?

yep!  it's about reducing variance (by making the endgame more predictable with this "honor code" stuff) and making the game faster.  a 4P power grid probably takes twice as long as a 2P dominion game on average, so the latter is not an insignificant motivation.

Quote
Sounds rather like "act if you didn't exist". Not competing for rank sounds not like "do what's best for you".

it works if you only go by the ranking system that BSW uses, which is what is done there.  people would be far more receptive to your argument if the site gave you points for finishing 2nd or 3rd, but literally the only thing it tracks is who finished 1st.

but yes, this conversation is a great illustration of why i've been playing a lot less pgrid and a lot more dominion lately. ;)  there's nothing really *wrong* with anything you're saying here; trying to be competitive in multis forces you to pick one arbitrary honor code over others.  i gave it a shot for over a year, and power grid is one of my all-time favorite games of any sort, but hardly anybody plays 2P in that and aaaaaggggghhhhh

Quote
Caylus is a dry worker placement I haven't managed to get on the table more than twice, but it looks brilliant. I like Through the Ages better, but it also has kingmaking issues that are heavily and repeatedly debated.

yeah that's my reservation with caylus.  i'm not so sure i WANT a game with "zero luck" or whatever, but plenty of people i know swear by it.  i don't know too much about through the ages, but i forgot that game has netplay now and the theme is a lot cooler to me than dominion's.  for now i'm going to stick with the game that has an established 2P scene though~

354
Dominion General Discussion / Re: About kingmaking
« on: June 13, 2015, 08:58:38 am »
oh hey i forgot about this thread, sorry!

first off, to address the points re: other games, tournament poker stands out as a unique exception but even that still suffers from the non-kingmaking issues that all multiplayer competitive games have.  if you go on twoplustwo it's not hard to find cash-game pros who consider tournament poker a degenerate form of the game. why?

because oftentimes, the most important skill in tournaments is beating up on the weaker players and getting maximum value from them before they inevitably go down in flames.  you can effectively dodge other top players and come out on top, whereas the elite cash games only tend to have a couple fish at most.

unless you want to restrict your competitive scene to tiny invitationals, you can't really solve this problem with games of this type.


someone also mentioned kingmaking in 1v1...i tend to think of that as a separate thing, i.e. "collusion".  my original competitive games were fighting games (street fighter, mortal kombat, what have you), and this is an issue that's come up a lot there.  Evolution, the largest tournament for these games, used to run round-robin pools of 4 or 5 players each, with the top 2 finishers qualifying for the larger double-elimination bracket.  they did this for a couple of years then switched to double-elimination brackets for the "pools" as well, and i had assumed this was for time reasons since the event was growing.  however, one of Evo's organizers wrote an article breaking down various tournament formats, and he said the main reason they abandoned round-robin was that it rewards collusion much more than other formats do.  this is because more players are directly affected by one's wins and losses, and also because there's more certainty in whom you'll be playing.  the best-laid plans in double-elimination could get screwed by one big upset, after all!

this being said, even with double-elimination as the competitive standard, fighting games have still had countless instances of players throwing matches.  they almost all tend to be at the end of the tournament, when both players are already in the money.  you'd see this with players on the same sponsored team, or just players who are buddies...you get the idea.  a big contributing factor is that fighting game tournaments have historically had EXTREMELY top-heavy payouts - for a long time the standard was "only top 3 get paid, 70/20/10 split".  not only that, but some major tournaments would occasionally add a pot bonus for 1st place on top of that 70%!  easy to see how that encourages splitting the pot, no?  there's also the issue of so many top players being friends nowadays since they get to see each other at every major event - the old days had a lot more genuine rivalries since people couldn't go to many tournaments and get to know each other, so that used to be kind of a counterbalance to all of this.

ok, that got a bit off track.  i guess my tl;dr point is that certain tournament structures incentivize collusion more than others, but you also have to factor in the culture of your game's competitive scene.

355
Dominion General Discussion / Re: About kingmaking
« on: May 24, 2015, 11:56:12 pm »
this is an interesting topic to see.  i come from power grid/funkenschlag, which is a game where 4-player is the most popular competitive format, and the top players at BSW have a comprehensive set of unwritten rules when it comes to kingmaking.  for those familiar with that game, they're as follows:

- most obviously, don't end the game early if you're going to lose.  people mentioned earlier that dominion is a rare game where this is possible, but i think it's a lot easier in pgrid.  in particular, you'll often see newer players do this accidentally in 5/6 player since they don't remember the lower ending condition.  but then, 5-6 in pgrid is equivalent to 4 in dominion =P

- don't buy out another player's resources at the end if you can't win, unless you actually need those resources to run a plant.  if it comes down to that then they're being dumb and have nobody to blame but themselves.

- don't bid other players TOO high on plants they need at the end if you can't win, but don't let them have those plants for free either.  this is the trickiest issue, but generally you should bid until the plant becomes equal in cost to other available options at the same capacity, OR (if it's an especially godlike plant) you can't build enough cities to make full use of the plant.

- on the final turn, only build as many cities as you can power, and take your cheapest builds.  anything else risks blocking others without benefiting you.

- don't break any of these rules even if it will get you second place instead of last.  BSW only tracks 1st place finishes, so that is all that matters to the top players.


basically the general concept is "do what's best for you as if the other players didn't exist".  this leads to things like being able to get away with not storing resources on a plant, because nobody can buy you out without throwing the game to someone else...so it's definitely not perfect.  i think it's the fairest way to handle this though.

but i'm sure now yall understand why i'm eager to learn a game where nobody cares about multis! =)  i think pgrid is as good as it gets for a serious multiplayer board game (only caylus seems to compare from what i've heard), but i just think the format inherently can't be as competitive as 1v1 since you always have these issues along with others (e.g. how badly the game can be skewed by one lower-level player being involved).

356
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Counterfeit + Jack = AWESOME
« on: May 24, 2015, 08:50:21 pm »
I once got annihilated by eliegel on a JoAT/Forager board, which is actually pretty analogous; after you have trashed down normally, you can use a a pair of Jacks to feed Silver to your Foragers...who spit out a Gold and a buy. A very pretty technique.

wait eliegel plays this? word???  he's really good in power grid too and we've played each other a lot in that.  looks like i may have found someone to bug once i stop watching vids and start playing online!

357
soooooo i think i permanently screwed myself out of walled village

i bought black market before i learned that you don't get enough tokens to buy all the cards that way.  at least i got the other two token-only cards but that still bugs me

please tell me there's some other way i'm missing here!

358
thanks for the offers!  still got some work to do before i wanna play anyone else, haha.  i think i buy too much money when i'm going for engine strats...

oh here's a big issue: the volume.  dominion is just ridiculously louder than anything else (streams etc.) i have in chrome.  i don't see any volume controls specific to that, just the muting options.  a way of lowering the volume just for dominion would be really nice both for streaming and for not bugging my roommates...

EDIT: thanks for the heads up on the adventures too!  i'll probably just get the first adventure then, since i already have almost enough coins for it.

359
Are you the same funkdoc who speedruns stuff?

yep! =)  adamh knows me some because i've written power grid stuff for his blog in the past, and he was nice enough to plug mine once i wrote my own stuff for it.

i've streamed some pgrid before (have a really good 2-player set archived on my SRKfunkdoc stream) and definitely plan on doing the same for this once i get not terrible.  doing it from the main browser window would be annoying though - is there a pop-out option i'm missing somewhere?

also thanks for the advice, everyone! i already got salvager and knew about playing with people who have all the cards, but didn't realize the stuff you paid for would carry over.  i'm used to video games where that sort of thing hardly ever happens, so that's really reassuring!  will probably grind for the promos and buy the rest soon then.

BTW i'm pleasantly surprised at the AI in this.  only won like 1/3 of my games against it last night.  my experience is largely with fighting games, where if you know one decent combo you will murder the AI.  also do the bot names mean anything?  is bankerbot a big money player and villagerbot a real village idiot?

360
hi all,

so i've been playing the heck out of power grid on BSW for well over a year now, and am considering picking up another game.  dominion appears to be the likely answer, but i see a conundrum here...

i have no intention of getting the physical game (for the foreseeable future anyway).  this would be strictly online grinding.  problems there are:

- apparently nobody knows when the new expansion will be added to the online version

- there's that mysterious steam version that's supposedly coming out not TOO far from now?

basically i'm not sure if it's worth shelling out any money on goko, or if i should just wait for the steam release.  i'm kinda blindly assuming the steam one would have all the expansions considering how long this game's been around, so please let me know if there's something i'm missing here!

i guess i could just play the AI on goko with the base deck for now to figure out the fundamentals...but then what?  i would greatly appreciate any advice here.  i'm more than willing to pay to play online - i just don't want to end up doing it twice!

361
Power Grid General Discussion / Re: Individual Power Plant Articles
« on: September 09, 2014, 11:14:39 am »
sent the e-mail, not sure how much of it will carry over.

i also updated the Plant 03 article with a little extra info, which i thought of thanks to adam's comment. basically, if 07 is bought as a starting plant, 03 becomes pretty awful and i wouldn't want it anymore. that may explain why others don't like it...07 tends to go ignored in my online games, but if it's popular in your group then you are right to stay away from 03!

362
Power Grid General Discussion / Re: Individual Power Plant Articles
« on: September 08, 2014, 04:04:46 pm »
i would definitely like to see this hosted on your page, thank you!

hmm, regarding "code", i just used the wordpress options for adding links to media files. not sure exactly what you'd be looking for...

363
Power Grid General Discussion / Re: Individual Power Plant Articles
« on: September 08, 2014, 12:12:08 pm »
i finished all the plants! redid the index too, think it looks nicer this way (excuse the odd-sized plant pics)!

http://maninmotiongoingnowhere.wordpress.com/power-grid-strategy-individual-plant-articles/

364
Power Grid General Discussion / Re: Individual Power Plant Articles
« on: September 03, 2014, 02:41:25 pm »
thanks for the interest, all! =)

regarding the expansion power plant deck, my old roommate (the one who kept kicking my ass in 2P) owned it so we have a decent amount of experience with it. we ended up not liking it much at all, either.

my issue with the 2nd deck is that the early-mid 5-cap plants absolutely suck. well, the hybrid one that takes 3 resources might be OK, but 3 trash for 5? bleh. this makes the game favor efficiency too much in my view; i think early efficiency already may have been the most consistent winning strategy in 3-4 player games with the original deck, so this was not the direction they needed to go. the original deck presents interesting decisions since you have godlike 5-caps to go along with the 4-caps that print money, and this element is largely gone in the expansion deck.

another problem with the earlier 5-caps is that you have a snowball's chance in hell of seeing a 6-cap before Step 3 with the 2nd deck. the lowest-numbered 6 plant is 34, which is equivalent to the old 36 since you have plants 01 & 02 here. as mentioned, i've seen 36 appear once before Step 3 in ~650 games. this means that you can't punish players overpaying for efficiency by getting a cheap 5 & 6 before Step 3, the way you could with the original deck's 30-32.

furthermore, i feel that the big Step 3 plants are too efficient/safe in the 2nd deck. in the original deck you had 50 & 39 as sure things, 38 & 40 as usually strong options (though you have to pay big for the former), and lots of question marks after that. the 2nd deck just doesn't have a double-edged sword quite like the original 36, which makes the late auctions far easier & less interesting. there is one fewer 7-cap in the 2nd deck if you play without the "bonus" plants, which i'm torn on; that's about the only thing that keeps turn order important for the Step 3 auctions, but it also makes the game come down more to luck at the end. the winner in these games tends to be the one who got a cheap 4-cap with good early-mid "sidekick" plants (or another good 4-cap), one of the million good 6-caps in Step 3, and a 7-cap when one happened to drop.

sooooooo yeah, i took way too long to say "original deck 4life"

365
Power Grid General Discussion / Re: Individual Power Plant Articles
« on: September 02, 2014, 01:30:39 pm »
that would be cool, although some of these are quite long in their own right! here's my idea for grouping...

THE STARTING PLANTS:

03,04,05,06,07,08,09,10,13

THE EARLY "MOVING THE MARKET" PLANTS:

11, 12, 15, 16 (06/07/09 all fit in here to some degree but easier to stick them above)

THE MID-TIER GREEN PLANTS:

18, 22, 27

THE EARLY 4-CAPS:

21, 24, 28, 29

THE EARLY 5-CAPS:

20, 25, 26

THE EARLY 6-CAPS:

30, 31, 32

THE RARE EARLY JUGGERNAUTS:

33, 34, 35

THE STEP 3 STAPLES:

36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 42, 44, 46, 50

THE BOTTOM TIER:

14, 17, 19, 23


the idea behind the "rare early juggernauts" one is that 33-35 appear before Step 3 significantly more often than anything higher will. i've seen this happen for each of those plants in at least 5 games, while i've seen 36 once and 39 once before Step 3.

366
Power Grid General Discussion / Individual Power Plant Articles
« on: September 02, 2014, 12:21:11 pm »
hi again yall

i took a break from this game for a while, but i've started playing some again and began writing a bunch more. i thought it would be neat if this game had something like the twilight strategy site, which has an article for each card in that game. thus i began doing comprehensive articles for each plant in power grid!

i tend to cover a lot of different topics...auction values, resource management, opening builds with starting plants, longer-term strategies for endgame plants, you name it! each article has separate sections for 2-player and multiplayer games, although i also break down the differences between 3-6 players in the multiplayer section. i really try to show situational uses for much-maligned plants such as the 11, 07, and even 06 (yes, it's not worthless!). even i can't put lipstick on the 14, though!

i am doing these in numerical order and am currently up to the infamous 20. currently these are hosted on my personal blog that i wasn't using before, at http://maninmotiongoingnowhere.wordpress.com/ . if adam is interested in posting these on his site, i would be more than down once i finish all of them! hoping to accomplish that by the end of this week, and don't want it to take much longer than that at worst.

feel free to dicuss here, and hope you enjoy =)

EDIT: just made a huge update to the plant 18 article, with a lot more info on plants that work well with the mid-tier greens!

367
Power Grid General Discussion / Re: ranking the starting plants
« on: April 07, 2014, 05:34:07 pm »
though it's a situation you would rather avoid, you can win if you have to run 03 or 04 for more than 2 turns. pairing them with 13 is the best solution for this, as you want to keep turn order and play the market as hard as you can.

you'll be in rough shape if you have to do this after multiple good 4 & 5-cap plants have already been bought, of course. but if the market's been really slow in the early going, you'll have a solid chance as long as you stay patient and improve your position slowly while remaining in the "bottom" spot. a very slow early market often means things will go crazy once it finally opens up, so you can potentially get two monsters in two turns if you get a lucky drop somewhere.

also: you guys really should get on BSW sometime, it's a real nice & friendly bunch there for the most part! i have a twitch stream and will start broadcasting my games soon, so we would love to have you on. =) i think generally european primetime-night hours are best since that's also when the americans will be around. it's made this game 100x more interesting and fun for me, and hopefully it can give you all some fresh perspectives as well.

368
so yeah, i've changed my opinion on this quite a bit in recent weeks

08 was my worst pick on that list, hands down. it's not nearly as good of a starting plant as i thought, as you will miss out on big plants in turn 2. if the plants on the market suggest things may open up in turn 3 rather than 2, 08 becomes the best starting plant...but that's not too common and very difficult to predict in advance. there are times when 09 is the better choice as a starting plant!

20 shouldn't even be close to the top 10, at least in 3-4 player. strong games will have some players who focus on efficiency and others who will aggressively attack coal & oil, making those resources dangerous toward the end of the game. this means you will have your prices driven up from an early point, and you will be badly behind on money compared to some others. it is much better in 5-6 player with the higher restock rates and increased emphasis on building capacity early, but then again the 4-cap plants become much more viable endgame options in those games too...

38 is debatable in 3-4 player. good players will go for the 24 if it's there when trash gets down to $4-5, and 30 will always be bought if it shows up after the first few turns. trash is less safe than in average games when this happens, but it's often still less scarce than coal or oil by that point. on many occasions, 38 will be the only viable 7-cap plant for players at the top of the turn order, so there is an argument for keeping it on there.

39 actually has a case for similar reasons as the 38, as most of the 6+ capacity plants in step 3 are coal & oil-guzzlers. it's usually cheaper overall than the 50, even for 2 turns, and is obviously much better for turn order.

30 is not top 3 for the reasons mentioned before, but still top 10 overall. there will be games when this plant singlehandedly wins the game for the person who can pay $90 for it and still afford resources. its peak value is much higher than that of the 25 or 26, but those plants are much more consistently strong. i actually think 35 has the highest peak value of any plant period if it comes out early, but that's so rare that i can't in good conscience rank that plant in the top 10.

03 should definitely be on there. gives you great building position and can get you the prime spot to fish for a big plant early on. it also holds up better than the 04 if you have to run it for more than a couple turns (i.e. something like 03 + 13 or 03 + 10).

32 is another plant that's turned out to be significantly worse than i thought, as oil gets attacked much more in good games. coal is still much worse as the game goes on, so this is borderline top 10 in 3-4 player. not the most efficient, but sometimes you just need capacity before step 3 and you can generally store extra oil on this in preparation for the end.

21 becomes kinda weak if it doesn't appear until the middle of the game, but it's so good in the early stages that it still belongs up here. if you plan on replacing it at the end, it's also a fantastic storage plant that can allow you to safely buy something like 40 or 42.

28 & 29 were hands down my biggest omissions from my previous list. among the usual pre-step 3 plants, these two make far more money per turn than anything else besides 25/26 (and even that often doesn't hold up toward the end). this makes them tremendously underrated for 3-4 player, where money is crucial. they are also possibly top 5 overall plants in 6-player, as you can reach endgame capacity in many more ways here with a 4 plant (4-4-6 & 4-5-5 are both realistic). building out for an early win at less than endgame capacity is also much easier in 6P than in smaller games, and these plants give you the money and capacity you'll need to pull this off. 28 & 29 are my two favorite plants in the game now, for real.

so let me try this again...assuming 3-4 player on USA/germany style maps:

26
25
29
28
04
03
21 (for early-game value)
30 (#1 in games with no 24 until late or major coal + oil squeezes)
32
38 (giving this the nod over 39 since a generally-safe 7-cap plant is far more unique)

really though, all a list like this can do is give you a rough idea of the plants that win games most often. this game is so much about situational value that i don't see a point in going farther than this (by, say, making a tier list of all the plants). quite often, the 36 will be a game-winner for the player at the bottom of the turn order and untouchable for anyone else since they risk having coal bought out - does this make it a top-tier plant or a low-tier one? the answer, of course, is neither, as the concept of fixed rankings does not work for this game!

i think the most worthwhile project in this fashion would be something akin to the twilight struggle strategy site: writing an individual article on each plant which discusses its uses in the various situations you will encounter in real games.

369
hello everyone! after grinding more BSW and figuring out some ideas i have not seen posted anywhere online, i figured i would try to explain them myself! adam has expressed interest in articles from others to post on the blog, and this is my response. =)

i have attached this as a word document. do note that it's kind of a doozy - over 5000 words! this may be better to split into a 2-parter, perhaps, in which case i would have to edit a tad bit.

among the topics highlighted: which plants make the most money, which of those plants make the best combinations for a money-focused strategy, why you don't need to worry about your capacity deficit, whether to overbuild before step 3 with this strategy, why money beats early capacity in high-level 3-4 player games but *not* average ones, and potential counter-strategies for this.

i would definitely appreciate any feedback. hope you enjoy! =)

370
i used "underrated" because of the massive hate for 4-caps on BGG & this blog, but what you say is definitely true of the regular online players. it's funny but i have actually soured on this plant a little bit recently, as high-level play has shown me some serious weaknesses in comparison to the 28 & 29 (and even 24 on occasion!).

i used to think this plant was so amazing because oil consistently stayed rather cheap in my live games. this is definitely not the case with the top players on BSW, though, and with good reason: if you let oil remain at $1-2 while everyone and their mother is gobbling up coal, the 26 will mean a near-guaranteed win for whoever gets it! the same is obviously true of the 25 if you're in one of those rare games where people aren't chewing through coal, so both of these resources will be attacked in good games. this greatly hurts 21's value as you head toward the end of the game, as you might imagine!

if i'm buying a 4-capacity plant, i want to run it for no more than $8 (i.e. $2 per city) each turn. 29 will always be at this level as long as you can run it at all, and 28 remains steady the vast majority of the time since the earlier nuclear plants are so mediocre and the stronger ones hardly ever appear until step 3. the 24 can be this good if the 30 is toward the bottom of the deck or not in the game at all. the 21, on the other hand, almost never maintains this efficiency for the entire time you need it if your opponents are good.

tl;dr 21 is a top-tier plant within the first 3 turns or so, and a solid buy for a couple turns afterward (mainly if you have a green plant to pair with it), but later on it really falls off. toward the middle of the game it becomes a plant i settle for rather than a top target, and at that point i would rather wait for a 6-cap plant if there is more than one of those yet to come.

371
Power Grid General Discussion / Re: ranking the starting plants
« on: April 06, 2014, 10:22:12 am »
you make a point that does indeed sound good on paper, but there are problems with this in real game situations.

there is a major drawback to the 04 that people often forget: coal gets devoured early on, so it becomes near-useless after the initial $5 worth of coal. think about how many coal plants people almost always buy in the first 2 turns: 04, 05, 08, and 10. that's a ton right there, to say nothing of other plants that will be bought if they show up on turn 2 (15, 20, on rare occasion 25)! there is far, far less oil likely to be in this game at this point: 03 for sure, 05 may run oil for a turn or two, occasionally 09 as a starting plant or a backup plan on turn 2-3. nobody good will take 07 as a starting plant or buy it period unless oil becomes insanely cheap by turn 3-4. from the randomly drawn plants likely to show up on turn 2, only 12/16/21 are oil-burners, and unlike the aforementioned coal plants 12 will only be bought if it appears in the first 2-3 turns. additionally, good players will be more likely to run coal on the hybrids if multiple opponents are heavily reliant on the likes of 08 & 10, and wait a bit to switch to oil.

add it all up, and the majority of the time oil should be cheaper than coal after the first turn or two. while you will often get a plant that obsoletes your starter, there are times when you miss out and are forced to run something like starting plant + 13. 03 is far, far better than 04 in situations like this.

there is also the fact that on certain map configs, there is a safe single build available for the first player (think Washington, DC). this means that 03 will guarantee you the "bottom" spot in the turn order, which is hugely important in 4+ player if you don't see any of the truly awful plants blocking the market yet (think 14/17/19/23). if a player with 04 can buy 15 but give you 21 at list price in the process, they will likely do it anyway rather than remain stuck with a horribly inefficient 1-cap. in general, adjusting your play to the plants visible on the market is an important advanced skill, and this is one of the key examples of that!

and even without considering any of the above, there are map configs where the amount of money you gain in building from 03 more than makes up for its higher early fuel prices. i'll put it to you this way: BSW has far stronger players than i have seen in any live game, and on there the only starting plants that consistently go for higher than list price are 04, 10 (only in 6-player, of course)...and the humble 03. the going rate for 03 is $4, and it can be worth up to $6 on some of the really unbalanced map configs in germany.

372
Power Grid General Discussion / Re: The Step Two Stall (draft)
« on: April 06, 2014, 09:47:49 am »
i find that this is more likely to happen on maps with heavily unbalanced geography, like USA/germany. france & italy are a lot kinder in this regard unless you're playing 3-player with only the most expensive regions...

i notice that in general you are less likely to have a really bad stall in strong BSW games, for the reasons adam has noted. there's also another issue that i discuss a bit in the article i just finished: if they're badly behind on plants OR there is one player in a dominant position, good players will make all kinds of aggressive plays solely to move the market. making an expensive build to break a stall if nobody else will is an example of this!

you will still have an occasional game where step 2 never happens, but the better your competition is the rarer it gets. it should only happen when the market is badly stalled as well, i.e. when breaking the building stall won't give you a chance at a good plant.

373
Power Grid General Discussion / starting builds: the fundamentals
« on: January 23, 2014, 05:45:22 pm »
choosing where to place your initial city (or, more often, cities) is one of the most important decisions in this game, yet there doesn't seem to be a lot of in-depth posting about this online. i still make my fair share of mistakes here but have improved greatly from even a month ago, so i can give you what i have learned thus far!

first off, there's the matter of whether to build 1 or 2 cities with a 1-capacity starting plant. i've seen people on BGG go "you can't power a second city and you're giving up the turn-order advantage from your lower-numbered plant, so why do it?"  yet if you watch good online players, you'll quickly notice that single builds are the exception and not the rule, regardless of starting plant. why?

the key is carving out enough of a cheap area that nobody else can possibly reach 5 cities if they start there!  a great example is the dirt-cheap red region in Germany, with the green & blue regions removed.  the standard build with the 03 plant here is Kassel + Dortmund, as you cross the expensive bridge to all the cheap stuff and get great expansion possibilities for Step 2 thanks to Kassel's multiple connections to yellow. if you merely single build in Kassel, someone else can do an opening triple build and steal most of your cheap red cities, forcing you into an expensive jump somewhere or other; taking Dortmund leaves less open territory and makes future jumps in red very cheap for you, killing the incentive for good opponents to do this. single building in Dortmund is not nearly as bad, but someone else will surely take Kassel and make it harder for you to expand out of red - this also means you'll get 6 cities instead of 7 during Step 1, potentially leaving you at the mercy of a stall.  the advantages of taking those two cities at once easily outweigh the worse turn order on the second turn, especially since Germany has no safe single builds at all unless you're late in the opening build order (in which case it's worthwhile with the 09 or 13).

in order for a single build to be "safe", it should lie in a central city that connects to two separate small clusters of cities in that region, and those clusters shouldn't offer enough territory themselves to be worth starting in.  the classic example on the USA map is Chicago, with Minneapolis/Duluth/Fargo behind it and St.Louis/Cincinnati/Knoxville in front of it. if the Northwest is not in play, all of these cities should be safely yours except for St. Louis if the Mid-South region is in play.  if the Northwest is in play, on the other hand, building in Chicago alone is no longer safe since another player can take Minneapolis + Omaha - in this case, the optimal Midwest build becomes Chicago + Minneapolis.  Washington, DC is also a strong single build on USA - at worst it's like the Dortmund single build except with much better expansion options, and it becomes even better when the Southeast is in play.  heck, even a single build in Savannah or Jacksonville can be good when the Northeast isn't in play since those are central cities as well.

you absolutely do NOT want to single build in an extremely cheap region which is also connected to other extremely cheap regions.  it's just too easy for multiple opponents to surround you and force you into jumps, which means you won't be able to keep up with them in money or territory.  think of the northern half of Italy, or Benelux in general!

so as mentioned before, the majority of good starting builds are double builds.  the most important aspect of a good double build, as suggested by the Germany example, is locking up a region or a multi-region cluster of 6-7 cities to yourself.  for a great example of the latter, we'll go back to Germany with Hamburg + Schwerin. when green & brown are in play, this build guarantees you the cheapest cities outside of the red/blue cluster; those cities are just disconnected enough from each other that nobody else should build there, but your two starting cities will give you the direct route to all of them.  another time where it's good to start in 2 different regions is when you're taking the only connection to one of those regions and it's expensive for anyone else to jump past you into that region.  Germany (yes, AGAIN, i know!) has a powerful one when blue & purple are in play but yellow is not, as you can take Stuttgart + the blue city just north of it (forget the name, sorry!).  nobody else will have a direct route into purple, and the blue city also has enough decently-priced connections in blue that players shouldn't build near you there either!  though this may seem unattractive since purple is easily the most expensive region in Germany, having that many cities to yourself means you'll never have to worry about getting blocked until Step 3.

these trans-regional builds are also the exception, however.  most good starting double builds will simply aim to claim a single region for yourself - when in doubt, go for the build that best "divides" the cities around you and makes it the most expensive for others to jump into your area.

finally for now, i would like to touch on the rare triple build!  i've never seen this discussed on BGG or this blog, but good online players will start with 3 cities in certain situations.  this is almost always done with the 03 plant since these builds are made in the cheapest areas, so money will be a challenge for the next few turns...but it can be very strong if you manage that well.

first, i should mention the best situations to do this.  the most popular triple build online is also the most obvious one: all 3 "cities" in Paris!  i am only a fan of this move if purple & brown are both open, though i have seen some players use it even if one of those regions is gone.  it also happens a lot in Germany when red & blue are open, as someone can take 3 cities somewhere in that whole cheap cluster.  the last one i have seen is the most interesting one to me and a move i never would have considered before playing online: Savannah + Atlanta + Birmingham when the Northeast is not open. you can only afford this build if you pay $3 or $4 for the 03, but it gives you a uniquely powerful map position compared to the other builds mentioned.

as mentioned before, the main challenge with this type of move is building up your money and plants over the next few turns.  in maps besides France this is easier since the 13 plant is the ideal fit for you on turn 2; you can start with 2 spots in Paris + another city in France, but the big jump in cost just cripples your plant buys too much to be worth it.  if you make this build in a 4-player non-France game, the 13 will not be available when you go up to bid on turn 2, so just put the 10 up for auction and pass if someone else wants it (or happily take it at cost if nobody else wants it).  if you're in a 3-player game and cannot even bid for the 10 on turn 2, i would not make this build to begin with since you will be forced to either pass or take an awful plant then.  in a 6-player game where the 13 will be taken as a starting plant, i still like this build since map position becomes even more important and you should have something decent on the market for turn 2.

anyway, once you get your 13 or 10, hang back until another decent plant shows up. i would go for something like the 16 or another green plant if you can try it - otherwise, just have patience until you build up some money and start to drop in the turn order.  an exceptionally dry early market will likely keep you from winning, so be sure to pay attention to the plants in the futures market before deciding on your build!

that's about it for now...i'd like to put together a list of optimal starting builds for various maps and map configs, but that would take a lot longer than this!

374
Power Grid General Discussion / Re: ranking the starting plants
« on: January 15, 2014, 11:05:21 pm »
one of the main things i have learned from playing online is that i was so, SO wrong about the 08

there are fewer good map configs for it than i had thought. in particular, its effectiveness in germany is the opposite of what i'd suspected - maps with really expensive connections are the worst for the 08, as you'll likely be limited to one or two spots where you can even afford 2 cities!

i've even seen the occasional 4P game where someone bought the 09 over the 08! though usually not the better option, there are map configs where this can be a good play, as 09 allows you to single-build in front of another player and keep turn priority over them for the 2nd build. i learned this the hard way when i got the 04, built in denver + billings, and watched the 09 player take boise right in front of me (then seattle on the next turn)...

i also now understand why the 07 is one of the worst starting plants. the problem, more than anything, is that you just won't make enough money to get a strong plant and build on turn 3 (which is generally when you need to do all this if you start with a 2-cap). the restock rate on oil is a killer when compared to the 08! however, the 07 actually becomes a decent buy on turn 2 since you'll have 3 extra oil on the market that way. honestly, i now think the only time the 07 is a decent starter on "normal" maps is when nobody buys the 03 for some reason.

375
Power Grid General Discussion / Re: why 21 is the most underrated plant
« on: January 05, 2014, 04:32:06 am »
addendum - i just played my second online game and learned of another situation where the 21 really shines: 3-4 player games with very cheap connections all around (3-player Italy with all the northern regions, in this case). if the players are good then the game will likely end before anyone can power 17, so that takes care of the 21's only huge weakness.

the winning player paid around $35 for the 21 after having just recently paid around $25 for the 18 - the game's fast pace meant that the 21 was endgame material and the 18 stuck around until the final turn. these map configs really flip a lot of the conventional wisdom on its head...i like it!

Pages: 1 ... 13 14 [15] 16

Page created in 2.072 seconds with 18 queries.