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976

Help! / Re: How to approach this kingdom

« on: March 26, 2015, 09:55:00 am »

Swindler (and Band of Misfits when Swindler is in the supply) can make any game screwy.  I admit I often get lost in Swindler kingdoms because I fear that my opponent will turn all my $5's into Duchies and what not.  Here, I would snag up Fool's Golds with the help of Nomad Camp early, simply because uncontested Fool's Gold is devastating.  I'd take the risk of opponent turning them into Estates or whatever.  Probably open Swindler/NC on $3/$4, but NC/FG+FG on $4/$3.

977

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Easy Puzzles

« on: March 25, 2015, 02:19:21 pm »

Here's one: Use the maximum number of different Reactions in the course of a single attack.
Alsio, what is the max you can get before the attack even takes place?
I got to 8 and 7 , respectively.

Edit: Here's a hint: I can reach the first number even when Lighthouse is out.

Can't your opponent just play a bunch of Council Rooms or Governors, giving you a bunch of reaction cards in hand, then play an attack which causes them to react?

Sure, but the majority of Reactions cares about other things then playing an attack.

TheOthin gave a perfectly valid answer.

Though Trader becomes less stupid if it helps emptying the Silver pile to end the game early. Also it's possible to have Tunnel in there instead of Moat (Dame Natalie, or Highway/Saboteur, for example).

I guess I might not understand the puzzle.  I can play 10 reactions from 1 attack -- I have 5 Traders in hand, opponent plays 5 Council Rooms, I draw 5 more Traders, opponent plays Witch, I reveal a Trader to instead gain a Silver, then continue to react other 9 Traders in the same way for this Silver.  I could do something similar with Secret Chamber, etc.

978

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Easy Puzzles

« on: March 25, 2015, 01:17:42 pm »

Here's one: Use the maximum number of different Reactions in the course of a single attack.
Alsio, what is the max you can get before the attack even takes place?
I got to 8 and 7 , respectively.

Edit: Here's a hint: I can reach the first number even when Lighthouse is out.

Can't your opponent just play a bunch of Council Rooms or Governors, giving you a bunch of reaction cards in hand, then play an attack which causes them to react?

979

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Easy Puzzles

« on: March 25, 2015, 07:55:12 am »

I play 1 and only 1 Thrown Room this turn, and I use it on a Tactician.  But this Thrown Room stays in play (in 'duration') until next turn.  How?

It was played with KC and used on another Duration, too? It was Processed, gained from the trash and played on another duration? The card "Thrown Room" is not Throne Room, but a Lighthouse (Room) you threw on the table? You forgot to clean it up? You cheat?

First or second was what I was thinking, although those other things are entirely plausible.

980

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Easy Puzzles

« on: March 25, 2015, 07:15:18 am »

I play 1 and only 1 Thrown Room this turn, and I use it on a Tactician.  But this Thrown Room stays in play (in 'duration') until next turn.  How?

981

Rules Questions / Re: Oracle Drawing Order

« on: March 23, 2015, 01:32:37 pm »

Currently it does not matter, but it could make a difference in the future with certain card effects.  More importantly, it would be wordier to give separate instructions for the one who played the card.

That's basically what I thought, but wanted to make sure.  I never know when there are weird fringe cases out there.

982

Rules Questions / Oracle Drawing Order

« on: March 23, 2015, 01:18:28 pm »

When you play an Oracle, and you want to draw the 2 cards you just revealed, Goko lets you choose the order in which you put them back on your deck before you continue to draw them.  Does this order ever really matter?  I can see that it matters for the opponents of the player playing the Oracle, but not the player him/herself.

983

Game Reports / Re: Not even mad.

« on: March 23, 2015, 12:46:33 pm »

I also played the board. In my opinion I played the engine with KC but I lost to Big Money
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150321/log.51279b11e4b03ef870c8e38e.1426954229361.txt

You should gain more Wharves. Basically all of your early $5 hits should be Wharves.

Don't forget you could KC a Feast here.  So a $5, or even more than $5, could be a Feast at some point.

984

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Neat and potentially useful card interactions

« on: March 23, 2015, 08:43:26 am »

Black Market + draw-up-to-x:
Play Black Market + a lot of treasures (it doesn't matter whether you actually buy something from the BM deck or not), then play your draw-up-to-x (e.g. Library).  You will have the coins from the treasure you just played, while you draw a ton more cards.  Do this multiple times per turn and you're off to the races.  Of course this requires some sort of village for support.

Usage:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150315/log.516d4577e4b082c74d7b716e.1426465057559.txt

EDIT: I suggest the OPer put the most useful/simple/interesting interactions into the OP, to make them easy to find later.

985

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Easy Puzzles

« on: March 20, 2015, 02:20:11 pm »

Romeo and Juliet are playing a 4-player game of Dominion. Romeo has spotted a complicated forced-win for Juliet and desperately wants to tell her, but he remains silent as he shouldn't upset the other players.

Using only the gameplay of Dominion, how can Romeo send a message to Juliet?

So.. is the puzzle how can Romeo tell Juliet something (i.e. give her information) without giving any information to the other players?  And it's Juliet's turn?  If I'm understanding this correctly...

During Juliet's turn, she has played some number of Torturers so that the other players (players A and B) don't have any cards in hand, but Romeo was unaffected because of        Moat                .  Juliet then starts Thrown-Rooming some Masquerades so that the players pass cards in a circle.  Every card that players A or B receive must then be passed along upon next Masquerade.  If Juliet passes that same card to Romeo that she had received prior, that's a 0; passes a different card, that's a 1.  They continue to communicate via binary until some sort of message is fully constructed.  However, because player A doesn't know what was passed from Juliet to Romeo (through player B), or vice-versa for player B, neither of A nor B are able to know any of the bits.

EDIT: This allows for 2-way communication.  If all you want is 1-way, and Juliet is directly on Romeo's left, then the solution is easy -- just use Masquerade to pass bits.

986

Help! / Re: Help me to understand a decision

« on: March 20, 2015, 10:40:33 am »

Here are some reasons I came up with for both cards.

Don't abuse your brain like that. It can come up with an infinite number of reasons for anything you attend to, but none of that aids in your decision making.

Look at the board, visualize the deck you want to build, then figure out what step you need to take right now in order to get there. General arguments for this or that card are as relevant to anything in Dominion as a compass is to a basketball player while aiming his shot.

I didn't see that as him "abusing his brain", but rather attempting to do exactly what you describe.  The OP talks about conspirator being swindler defense, etc. and setting up a conspirator engine.  The reality is that is not a particularly good strategy on this board, and therefore suboptimal tactics flow from that.

I completely agree with what you are saying here, however I just think that the OP's question of "sage vs. conspirator right now?" actually is his attempt to visualize the deck he wants to build, which involves sages, conspirators, and likely cities to buy provinces...as an expert player you recognize that that is not really the kind of deck an expert player wants to build given this kingdom.

Good point, and I agree.  Specifically, plenty of non-expert players may be doing exactly this:

Look at the board, visualize the deck you want to build, then figure out what step you need to take right now in order to get there.

even though that "visualization" might include things like

• "I see Scouts and Gardens.  I visualize a very green deck, but my Scouts making up for that greenness.  In order to get there asap, I'll buy a Scout right now."
• "I see Transmutes and Dukes.  I visualize a deck with a lot of Transmutes to turn themselves and maybe some other things into Duchies, using my Gold I had gained from trashing my Estates as economy to buy Dukes.  In order to get there asap, I'll buy a Potion right now."
• etc.

Any expert player will be able to recognize when these visualizations are terrible.  But non-expert players may not, and at least they have some sort of goal/direction in mind (unlike completely new players and my friend's mom).  Or did you mean something different?

987

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Easy Puzzles

« on: March 19, 2015, 01:55:37 pm »

In a 2-player game, no Bakers, how can I have $8 to spend on my second turn of the game?  (I can think of 2 ways, but there may be more.)

Bonus question: In a 2-player game, no Bakers, what is the most coins a player can have to spend on their second turn?

Solution 1:

Opponent's turn 1: buy Noble Brigand, you discard 2 Estates and gain a Copper
Your turn 1: buy Death Cart, draw 3 Coppers, shuffle, draw Death Cart and a Copper
Opponent's turn 2: buy Chancellor
Your turn 2: play Death Cart and 4 Coppers, have $9

Solution 2: Replace Death Cart with Coppersmith, have $8

Solution 3:

Use Shelters.
Opponent's turn 1: buy Noble Brigand, you discard 2 Coppers
Your turn 1: buy Stonemason, overpay for $1, gain two Poor Houses, draw Necropolis, Hovel, Overgrown Estate, shuffle, draw two Poor Houses
Opponent's turn 2: buy Moat
Your turn 2: play Necropolis, play Poor House, play Poor House, have $8

Bringo!  I was thinking of your Solutions 2 and 3.  1 also works, nice!

988

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Easy Puzzles

« on: March 19, 2015, 01:20:22 pm »

In a 2-player game, no Bakers, how can I have $8 to spend on my second turn of the game?  (I can think of 2 ways, but there may be more.)

Bonus question: In a 2-player game, no Bakers, what is the most coins a player can have to spend on their second turn?

989

Dominion Articles / Re: Surprising Openers

« on: March 19, 2015, 11:29:37 am »

Mountebank / Silver is the most surprising opener on that list.

I've seen things like that.  I believe it is a player doing turn 1 nothing, turn 2 Monty, turn 3 Silver.  Or turn 1 nothing, turn 2 Silver, turn 3 Monty.  Or maybe they were Noble Brigand-ed, and discarded 2 Estates, and drew 5 coppers on their second turn, or something like that.

990

Dominion Articles / Re: Surprising Openers

« on: March 19, 2015, 10:48:39 am »

Any discussion is welcome.

I suspect many of these are explained by the fact that the data is based on games where one player did open with the cards in question. Games where a pair of cards is available but a bad enough opener that no one buys them, or good enough that both players do, don't contribute.

So, for example, I'd guess that in general Silver/Island is the best available opening less often than Silver/Tournament. But in the games where Silver/Tournament is the best opening, it's more likely that both players will go for it, and in games where Silver/Island is the best opening, it's more likely that only one player (and probably the one who's a better engine-builder) will open with it.

True, but I would say the majority of players don't open with the most optimal opening.  Maybe a lot of users of these forums would, because we are probably on average more experienced than the average Goko/Iso user.  But there's probably a lot of donks out there that open Island because it's interesting and fun, and the data would contain these situations.

991

Dominion Articles / Re: Surprising Openers

« on: March 19, 2015, 10:24:07 am »

Oracle isn't non-terminal...  and it *increases* your hand size...

These stats are from isotropic, which never had Dark Ages or Guilds.

Aw man, I feel like a donk!  I was thinking of Oasis.  Whoops.  Yeah, Jack / Oasis looks to be better than Jack / -.  I'll replace that row.

992

Dominion Articles / Surprising Openers

« on: March 19, 2015, 10:13:59 am »

At some point in time, I had come across this site that ranks many of the possible openers with each other.  That is, openers like Mountebank / Chapel are ranked higher than Scout / Chancellor, etc.  To my understanding, the list is ranked something like opener X is better than opener Y if the percentage of games in which a player opens X and their opponent doesn't and wins, is higher than the same thing for opening Y.  I'm not 100% on the mechanics of the calculations, but this definition suffices for the discussion below.

Some asides about the site

• It doesn't contain any Dark Ages or Guilds cards. So you don't see opening-wackiness with things like Baker, Stonemason, Doctor, etc. Also, it always assumes Estates (no Shelters).
• It probably doesn't have a lot of data for openers that people don't actually do very often, e.g. openers that contain Curses or Coppers. But it still attempts to rank everything.
• I don't really know how it handles things like Nomad Camp or Noble Brigand (but who cares about those cards anyways??)

(If anyone knows a more complete/reliable place for ranking openers, I'd like to know about it.)

After browsing through the page, a few relationships between different openers were very surprising to me.  I've listed 10 of these observations below, and attempted some sort of explanation for them.  In this list, "Better Opening" and "Worse Opening" are 2 different openers in which they both contain a common card, and the "Better Opening" has a higher rank than the "Worse Opening" according to the site.

Any discussion is welcome.

	Better Opening	Worse Opening	Possible Explanation
1	Courtyard / Upgrade	Courtyard / Ill-Gotten Gains	Both are good $5 cards.  But I would think $2/$5 would be a huge advantage over $3/$4 in kingdoms with Courtyard and IGG, more so than it would be in kingdoms with Courtyard and Upgrade.  Maybe I am underestimating Upgrade though.
2	Ambassador / -	Ambassador / Oasis	I realize both Ambassador and Oasis reduce your hand size, but I really would think the Oasis would help with (1) cycling, and (2) pairing Estates with Estates, or Coppers with Coppers for the Ambassador.  I would especially think (2) would be good in the early game when you're generally not buying stuff on the turns you're playing Ambassador (because you have just $1 or $2 to spend).
3	Silver / Salvager	Silver / Militia	I guess I can see this one because both are good.  But Militia is just so powerful.  Maybe the chances of your opponent discarding junk (Estates) when Militia'd early are higher than I thought.
4	Silver / Island	Silver / Tournament	No explanation here.  Island is generally not a good opener, except in a few edge cases.  And Tournament is the bomb.  Silver / Tournament is actually very low compared to many other Tournament / <x> openings.  Is there something I am missing about Tournament?  I realize it's more of an engine-enabler, compared to a BM-enabler.  Maybe that's why it doesn't synergize with Silver as much as I thought it would.
5	Loan / Island	Loan / Militia	No explanation here.  Similar reasoning as above.
6	Chapel / Contraband	Chapel / Cache	I guess with Cache, you're at higher risk of missing Chapel in your first reshuffle.  But Contraband just stinks to me.  I would probably take Chapel / Cache over Chapel / Contraband on most boards, and risk missing Chapel on the first reshuffle.
7	Cellar / Pawn, Cellar / Scheme	Cellar / Tunnel	Obviously, none of these are great openers.  But at least Cellar / Tunnel has some synergy, with roughly a 35% chance of gaining an easy Gold before the second reshuffle.
8	Wishing Well / Remake	Wishing Well / Ambassador	It seems all the benefits of Wishing Well for Remake (getting an Estate into your hand that you otherwise would not have had,  to get Remake'd), would exist for Ambassador (getting Estate into hand to return it with Ambassador).  So I don't see why Remake would be better here.  Ambassador is just so powerful.
9	Baron / ANYTHING	Baron / Estate	I realize you're pretty much always better off opening Baron / - than Baron / Estate.  But come on.  Estate is worse than, say, a Tunnel?  Or a Curse??  Only explanation here is there is not enough data, i.e. people don't actually open Baron / Crap often enough for the data to show a reliable rank of which Crap is better.
10	Caravan / Trade Route	Caravan / Silver, Caravan / Loan	With Trade Route being such a weak thinner, and its rare economy activation near the beginning of the game, I would surely think old reliable Silver would be the better opener, and Loan as the better thinner/sifter.

993

Dominion Articles / Re: Most skilled card in Dominion?

« on: March 19, 2015, 09:35:53 am »

The most skilled card is the card you least expect it to be (so it's none of the cards mentioned, and it can't be mentioned).

994

Rules Questions / Re: Thrown Room + Duration

« on: March 17, 2015, 08:21:04 am »

The Throne Rooms that play at least 1 duration card and changes the duration effect (like doubling it) stays out. Throne Rooms that only play Throne Rooms get discarded.
The same goes for King's Court and Procession.

So the TR wouldn't stay out for cards like Outpost or Tactician, because Thrown Rooming these wouldn't change their effect?

And what about in the case of TR_1 + TR_2 + duration_1 + duration_2?  I assume TR_2 would stay out if it changed either duration_1's or duration_2's effect.

995

Rules Questions / Thrown Room + Duration

« on: March 17, 2015, 07:57:34 am »

I know if you play TR + a duration card (e.g. Caravan), the TR stays "in play" with the duration (at least on Goko it does).  But what if you play TR_1 + TR_2 + duration + non-duration?  Does TR_2 stay with the duration, or does it get discarded with the non-duration?

Similarly for King's Court.

I'm too lazy to try this out myself on Goko.  But regardless of what it does, what is supposed to happen?

996

Game Reports / Re: Not even mad.

« on: March 17, 2015, 07:47:37 am »

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150316/log.516d4577e4b082c74d7b716e.1426558284604.txt

Props to you for being a good sport.  Your opponent was obviously a tool for the unnecessary spamming.

Thanks for the screenshot btw -- I had not taken one.  Definitely the most coins I've ever had in 1 turn before.

997

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas

« on: March 11, 2015, 08:41:44 am »

Silk Rat
Costs $4
Action, VP
Trash a victory card from your hand that is not an Estate.  Worth 1 VP for every 5 Victory cards in the trash (rounded down).

Okay, I'm catching up on this thread so this is super old, but I actually kinda like this concept, with some actual balancing.  Maybe something like

Silk Rat
$4 Victory
Worth 1 VP for every Victory card in the trash.  When you gain this, you may trash a card from your hand.

Even if there's no support on the board or from your opponents, you can get them to $4 Duchies with some commitment, and if there IS a way to get more green in the trash, they can become key cards.

Thing is, the VP is symmetrical, so other players can take advantage of all your hard work to boost them up. You'd have to scoop most of them up to really get an edge over your opponent.

You could say the same about Forager -- trashing a Gold also helps your opponent, but it may help you more depending on how many Foragers you have.

998

Game Reports / Junkers Galore

« on: March 10, 2015, 12:55:29 pm »

(Yay my first topic creation!)

I thought this was an interesting kingdom.

Code: [Select]

Scrying Pool, Black Market, Menagerie, Smugglers, Swindler, Ironworks, Sea Hag, Trader, Young Witch, Cultist, Venture
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150222/log.516d4577e4b082c74d7b716e.1424659479428.txt

It had by far the most junkers I've ever seen in a random kingdom.  With no real thinning/engine possibilities, I surely thought it would be a sloggy 3-pile mess.  Scrying Pool was tempting, but with no +buy and all the junking, I didn't see that.  Menagerie would not be so good in the beginning of the game without other engine components to compliment it with.  To top it off, there's Black Market and Swindler, which (I think) are some of the most luck-swingy cards in Dominion, and can screw any opponent's strategy.

I opened Ironworks/Smugglers, because these can gain you stuff when your deck is filled with ruins and curses, with the intention of first gaining a couple Traders to thin and hopefully counter his Cultist(s).  It turned out that my Traders came up at key times.  Was this Trader luck the only thing that won the game for me?  Should my opponent have gone down the Cultist route faster (they opened Cultist/-, and didn't buy a second one until turn 9)?  Thoughts?

999

Game Reports / Re: *lets out a heavy sigh of relief*

« on: March 10, 2015, 09:34:36 am »

I could be wrong, but I would definitely open with Armory (probably Armory+Swindler).  Lots of good cards to be gained from it.  Plus, Armory is generally a slow start, and best in a long game, right?  And don't Goons and Swindler games tend to last longer?

Well, rather than thinking "there are lots of good cards that you can gain with Armory and the game is going to be long so I should open Armory", you should be thinking about what purpose the Armory serves in your strategy. I don't think you want it here unless you're trying to gain 456486456 Advisors and I agree with WW that it's probably not going to work.

I understand that having Advisors + a lot of junk is bad.  But you can never have too many Mining Villages, pretty much no matter what else is in the kingdom.  Armory could be used to pick up them, a Moneylender, Cellars (to support all the Advisors you're getting), Death Cart fuel, etc.

1000

Game Reports / Re: *lets out a heavy sigh of relief*

« on: March 10, 2015, 09:05:21 am »

I could be wrong, but I would definitely open with Armory (probably Armory+Swindler).  Lots of good cards to be gained from it.  Plus, Armory is generally a slow start, and best in a long game, right?  And don't Goons and Swindler games tend to last longer?