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19001

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Dominion - Reverence

« on: July 20, 2014, 11:13:59 pm »

Being discussed elsewhere.  I'm a little surprised that it turns out to be really strong.  I suppose that's from the flexibility of the psuedo-TR vs. pseudo-Scheme?

a couple of reasons. flexibility. the on-gain  is really good. you can imitate a single action card as often as you want, that's a huge plus over TR. whenever you have 2 actions left and a village+ in play, you can play believer as a cantrip with the + from the village. bazaar is the best one, if you have a bazaar in play and 2 or more actions left, all believers can be peddlers if they want to. that makes a hand of 3 believers and no other actions great, where as with TR's you'd just choke. workers village and they can be market squares. and it skyrockets TR engines, where you have lots of spare actions. Believer can always exploit extra actions.

A few days ago I played a board with KC, believer, some draw and shrine (though i never used the trashing, workshop would've done it too). on my first turn where I could line things up properly, I managed end the game on piles, building up resources faster than they're used, similar to Procession - fortress. play KC, KC, draw, Shrine, get a couple believers, KC, believer, move everything back into your hand, Woodcutter, KC, Believer, Draw, KC, etc.

and then there are duration card shenanigans. play a double-tactician deck with one tactician, that doesn't even have cause tracking problems.

You wrote that you feel like dropping it.  I think you should drop it too.  It does a smattering of things that feels scattered and undirected.  It also feels like you have too many Lab variants in this set already, with Prayer and Crusade.

yea, you're right. it was too slow anyway, costing $6 didn't go well with the "play me a lot" theme. I'll try to rework it though, something with a structure like this

XX
{{vanilla boni}}
you may play an XX from your hand.
{{count XX's in play and do cool stuff}}

probably costing less.

and monastery is fine 

19002

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: wording issue: believer

« on: July 20, 2014, 10:47:05 pm »

it's the same problem, you change the card drastically. let's say you play FV - Believer - ( FV )

original believer: you now have +1 action, +2$ and +2$, +2 actions for the next turn
band of misfits believer: you now have +2 actions, +2$ and +2$, +2 actions for the next turn
swap believer: you now have +3 actions, +3$ and... don't know how much for the next turn

it's different. it can't afford to be stronger though.

Play FV: 2 actions, $1; +1 action and +$1 next turn
Play original Believer: 1 action, $1, +1 action and +$1 next turn
Play FV again: 2 actions, $2,; +2 actions and +$2 next turn

Play FV: 2 actions, $1; +1 action and +$1 next turn
Play swap Believer: 1 action, $1, +1 action and +$1 next turn
Play FV again: 2 actions, $2,; +2 actions and +$2 next turn

I suppose you're thinking of the "swap" play as a free play, but I'm not.  In my concept, it still takes up an action to perform the swap, so it works out the same.

ah, i get it. What i originally thought was that believer also has the FV effect when it comes into play, but what you're suggesting is that it just does the swap, it doesn't imitate FV and swap.

okay, so that's certainly interesting. you have solved the tracking problem without altering the powerlevel too much (a slight nerf is fine). I see two problems though.

one, your new believer is now FV until it leaves play, so it stays outside, but it doesn't actually do anything, right? the duration effect is from the old FV. so you have a card that's just there, stays in play until your next turn but doesn't do anything. hm.

second, it's now less clean with throne room. you throne a swap-believer, you target a FV, now FV moves into your hand and Believer is FV until it leaves play, but now it enters play again and you target a wharf. it's now... wharf or fv? neither? both? I'd say it's wharf, but then you don't have anything reminding you of the FV. that's acceptable though, you need TR/KC/Pr + Believer + Duration card for that to happen, that's not going to be all that often. you could abuse it though; throne a believer, target a wharf, then target a hamlet; now believer is being discarded at the end of your turn, despite being used on a duration card.

I think I like this version best, even with the problems. gotta think about it some more.

19003

Rules Questions / Re: Band of Misfits/Conspirator

« on: July 20, 2014, 09:34:28 pm »

I don't have a particular rule to point to, but you don't get the bonus; BoM-as-Conspirator is still just 1 card played.

according to goko. which isn't a proof.
(I do think it's correct though. but still).

19004

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: wording issue: believer

« on: July 20, 2014, 09:06:43 pm »

it's the same problem, you change the card drastically. let's say you play FW - Believer - ( FW )

original believer: you now have +1 action, +2$ and +2$, +2 actions for the next turn
band of misfits believer: you now have +2 actions, +2$ and +2$, +2 actions for the next turn
swap believer: you now have +3 actions, +3$ and... don't know how much for the next turn

it's different. it can't afford to be stronger though.

19005

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: wording issue: believer

« on: July 20, 2014, 07:40:32 pm »

The mention of BoM raises another possibility - could Believer be a Band of Misfits that copies an Action card you already have in play instead? It'll give you about 95% of the same effect but there's already been plenty of work done on getting the wording and underlying rules right.

unfortunately not, because that would skyrocket the powerlevel, since you need one less action. and you'd have to make a choose one clause for the topdecking

19006

General Discussion / Re: Random Stuff

« on: July 20, 2014, 06:16:01 pm »

That's stupid.  Log should always mean natural log. Other bases are only used for edge cases, and of course they're simply a multiple anyway.

I think log should never be used for natural log. If you want to use natural log, write ln, use log only if it doesn't matter e.g. ( O(log(n)) ) or if you specify the base

it's also not true not you don't need any other bases. it probably depends in what context you're in, but log with base 2 definitely isn't irrelevant.

19007

Goko Dominion Online / Re: Zapminion general strategy

« on: July 20, 2014, 06:06:36 pm »

In engine kingdoms it's better to zap down the opponents to buy more time to build the engine.

Honestly unless it's a heavy attack board and more than 2 players, starting with all Silvers and Duchies and just rushing VP wins everytime. Maybe against smart players and a really strong engine you can beat that, but bots are morons who cant.

yea i can confirm that, i did it a lot until AMMM wrote the adventure skipping thing.

19008

Goko Dominion Online / Re: Bug Report for Dominion Online!

« on: July 20, 2014, 05:58:20 pm »

there's a way to avoid it though. It only happens once you click on the scroll bars, the mouse then becomes attached to them and it is as though you had pressed on it constantly. It must be something like

mouseReleased() {
if (positionWasntImportant());
return;

--some more code that is now dead--
}


that would be hilarious.

anyway, how to avoid is is to simply not click on the scroll bars ever. Just use the wheel to scroll, and it's all good. Still annoying, but less annoying than dealing with the bug.

19009

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas

« on: July 20, 2014, 05:55:06 pm »

So basically every game of Dominion ever has ended in a tie because of a RBCI post.  Can we end the thread now?

but it's not, because the card isn't canon 

19010

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Dominion - Reverence

« on: July 20, 2014, 05:52:00 pm »

yea, i'm aware of both problems. Like you said, I tested it knowing that it would probably be too strong. I've already demanded a fix, the new version has two changes: it costs $6 instead of $5, and it can only imitate cards that cost less than itself, like band of misfits. you can still invest in KC's, but you can't play scribe as a KC. and just like BoF, it can't imitate itself anymore

I'm not sure if that version is balanced, but I'll test it. The current version is definitely too strong, it seems like the correct way to play it is to invest in all important action cards and then buy only scribes, which clearly isn't the point of the card. The big thing was that it could imitate 5$'s, first I thought I'd fix that with the changes, but then I realized that you can still do it, because now Scribe costs 6$ (duh). It might be too good, if it is, I can make it "cost 4$ or less" instead of "costing less than this". But i'd rather not, because then If you play 2 highways, it could imitate itself again.

I can totally see forgetting to do the +$1, especially if Scribe isn't actually in play at the time I play the action

If this were a problem, Investment must have had it too, but I've never heard LF mentioning it. It definitely wasn't a problem in the games I've played with it; you're excited about playing cards you invested in, that's not something you forget. And you have the cards to remind you of it too. The only thing you have to remember is whether you made your Scribes imitate Action cards (and get the +1$) or used it to invest in other cards (don't get the +1$). that seems quite reasonable.

On a side note, I'm not sure if you would get infinite money. I thought about it once I realized that you can invest in other scribes, and I don't think you "play" it several times. Like, imagine I play BoF, I imitate Woodcutter. If what you said is true, I must have played two action cards now, first the BoF, and then the Woodcutter. But I'm pretty sure that Peddler still costs 6$ if you just played a Band of Misfits. The way I see it is that the imitation happens instantly, you play it and it IS a woodcutter. If you imitate yourself, you would then play
a scribe that IS a scribe that IS a scribe that IS a scribe that IS a scribe ... that IS something else. But you still only play one card.

might be wrong though. but either way, it shouldn't (and won't) be possible.

19011

General Discussion / Re: Random Stuff

« on: July 20, 2014, 02:56:31 pm »

well to be fair, I always thought you were called KingZong, and in my dream you were called KingZong, so it was correct in that context. i dreamt about KingZong, even if that's not you 

19012

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Dominion - Reverence

« on: July 20, 2014, 02:49:32 pm »

I'm confused... the image for Believer has a different wording, with a different effect, from the description and discussion about it. I'm assuming one or the other is an updated version?

For the wording on the image, it's confusing I think. When you say "if you discard it from play this turn, you may..." that sounds to me like you will get the card back at the end of your turn, when it would otherwise be discarded. In other words, a Scheme effect, not a Throne Room effect. If you are trying to use a wording like that to limit Duration cards, you would need "if you would discard it from play this turn". But that doesn't work because not all cards can know if they will be discarded from play this turn or not; depends on things like Scheme and Treasury.

these kinds of things happen because Showdown35 does all the work on the cards. I told him how I want to change believer, I didn't forumate clearly, he misunderstood and made it a sheme. I pm'd him agian, but he didn't change it yet. He's a lot more busy than I am atm, so changes sometimes come in delayed. also, the images link directly to the ones he's working on, so whenever he changes something that might not be correct, it instantly affects the thread.

Believer lets you take a card from play in hand, or you can topdeck it instead if you choose. Just ignore the wording for now, it'll be right eventually. The text box is the safer thing to look at.

19013

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: wording issue: believer

« on: July 20, 2014, 02:44:21 pm »

Personal preference would be to allow it to work as expected with Durations; if you take Wharf back into hand, you'll still get +2 from it next turn. If you play it again, you'll get another +2 from it next turn on top of the original +2. Yes, it requires memory and tracking; so does Pawn. I could see it being a minor annoyance, but one that simply doesn't come up enough to worry that much about. I mean, there's no official way to track how many times you played Possession last turn either. You just have to remember; and in that case, you have to track both how many total turns you should get, and how many you've already taken.

thanks for saying that. i agree; there are lots of things that you have to track yourself, band of misfits is another one, or pretty much any card that lets you choose vanilla boni. leaving it as it is isn't out of question. still, if an elegant wording exists that makes it trackable, i'd rather change it.

19014

General Discussion / Re: Steam Group

« on: July 20, 2014, 12:41:53 pm »

...And. Mostly due to what I hear about it here on the forums, I just started playing DOTA 2. Just, wow.

It's pretty funny, because I never would have thought that the best gaming experiences I'd ever have would be with f2p, but that is hands down the case.
Anyway, so yeah, total noob that is maybe only semi-aware of everything I'm doing wrong but still having tons of fun.
Any beginner's tips for me?

yes, if someone thinks he is a good player and tries lecturing you, don't assume that anything of what he says is even remotely true. there are an unbelievable amount of players who think they know what they're talking about but don't.

also, if noone else does, always buy a courier at the start, even if there is someone else who should rather do it.

19015

General Discussion / Re: Random Stuff

« on: July 20, 2014, 12:09:48 pm »

KingZong

i never realized that he is spelled differently 

19016

General Discussion / Re: Random Stuff

« on: July 20, 2014, 11:50:38 am »

-- unrelated --
Last night i dreamt that I was making a post somewhere in this forum, in an area where you have only limited permissions or something, but I thought my post was completely fine. KingZong however reported me for it and temporarily banned my account for that specific area. I thought it was extremely unfair and so I pm'd him complaining. he answered that it wasn't actually this post, but "this whining here" why he banned me, referring to another post that I had made, in which I opened a thread, summarized a IRL game I had had, and asked for help. the post went something like

"so, hiuhiu, I had this rebuild game, and lots of junk was flying around, and I was building but I didn't get far, and in the end some guys just got Provinces at random {{I think it was via swindler peddler -> province}} and won, what could i do better?"

I was really angry about this, because I thought that i had played this game at ~4am, and after that I spend about an hour thinking about how to phrase the OP, because I didn't want it to sound arrogant, and of course I make myself look like a worse player there than I actually am, but {{something}} {{and also some other things I can't remember}}. I wanted to pm KingZong again telling him this, but I didn't get to it. (my thread never got any responses)

Then I woke up, and I thought about it, and I found it funny, because the first post in the restricted area never actually happened, and I only posted the Thread which didn't get any response for real, KingZong also never banned me. Then I woke up for real.

Also funny was that when I wrote down my dream (I always write down everything I dream) I started in german as normal, but I wrote my OP in english, because it happened in english in my dream, and then when I finished I realized that I had written everything up from the OP also in english without even noticing.

and haha silverspawn, I beat you 60% of the time

yea 6-4 

19017

General Discussion / Re: Random Stuff

« on: July 20, 2014, 10:57:45 am »

i didn't know this site... let's see how welll I'm doing

Opponent Wandering Winder SheCantSayNo Stef Andrew Iannacone HvBoedefeld Perry Green

Times played 9    0 4 29 85    7

win % against 33 - 50 46 32 28

well that's kind of bad... but it's interesting how I'm doing better the more comfortable I am playing. good thing I didn't play scsn

19018

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: wording issue: believer

« on: July 19, 2014, 11:53:39 pm »

Unfortunately, I don't think such a wording exists. Scheme already bends over backwards in order to make sure you don't lose track of Duration cards. An effect that specifically removes a card from play so that it can be played again the same turn seems like more trouble than it's worth.

well i can always fall back on

if it's not a duration card which you played this turn

i would be referencing another expansion, which would suck, but even that would be worth it.

19019

General Discussion / Re: Random Stuff

« on: July 19, 2014, 08:48:03 pm »

anyone wanna see the previous conversation i had with a similar guy? that turned out a lot better though. i'm kind of proud.

Always up for some schadenfreude.

it's here. i saved it after it happened

19020

General Discussion / Re: Random Stuff

« on: July 19, 2014, 07:39:26 pm »

anyone wanna see the previous conversation i had with a similar guy? that turned out a lot better though. i'm kind of proud.

19021

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Windmill (Action)

« on: July 19, 2014, 06:52:02 pm »

The on gain is really wordy. Make it forced, that takes words out.

"When you gain this, put a card from your discard onto your deck. Each other player draws and discards a card."

Also, I don't find it super interesting. I'm not sure its worth it either, since the on gain almost always really helps your opponent.

I don't think that works, if you want to topdeck any card from your discard pile, you probably need to copy the wording from scavanger, which is "look through your discard pile and put one card from it on top of your deck".

I also don't see the appeal of this card, and as i said here, i'm also not a fan of a card that lets you choose between actions and other stuff. if you try it, however, I would just drop the on-gain effect, unless there is a special reason why it's there.

19022

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: wording issue: believer

« on: July 19, 2014, 02:45:29 pm »

Procession isn't as bad.  If you Procession a duration, the Procession stays in play to remind you that you get two of something, and it's not too tough to remember what it was.  But that doesn't happen with this card.  You end up with the Duration card in play next turn, which is not as unusual as a Procession in play, so it's easier to forget that it was played more than once.

My question for you is, what is the design goal for this card?  As it is right now, it fills about the same niche as Throne Room by letting you play an action twice.  Unless there are other pieces that are missing, this is weaker because it requires you have TWO extra actions (one to play Believer, one to play the card that you take back) and it is a bit more flexible (you can split up the two plays instead of getting them back to back).

From a gameplay perspective, is that flexibility really worth using up two more actions than TR?  I can't think of any common situations off the top of my head.  Menagerie, maybe?  Eh.

From a design perspective, is the subtle difference from TR enough to warrant clunky wording and high potential for confusion?

that's the kind of stuff you should post here. i mean, i haven't even specified how the card works, how much it costs, what it can do, i was just asking about the wording

but alright, the idea of believer was to be a weak throne room variant for 2$, with more flexibility because you can also topdeck the card (I didn't mention that here, because it doesn't matter for the wording issue), and it also has an on-buy effect. but man, it is strong. so strong you would never guess it just by looking at it, it may be the strongest 2$ in the game. and it's also my personal favorite, I love it, it's complex but incredibly powerful, so yea, it is absolutely worth any issues it might have.

and procession can be even worse, if you play a procession chain, like procession - procession - wharf - wharf - procession - wharf - wharf. now you have +16 cards next turn and not even a single card to remind you of that.

The game state is unaffected by its effects that it has not had yet.

that's neat. i'm not worried about sheme, my only concern with that wording is that it'll look confusing to newer players. still, it's worth considering, maybe i'll do it

19023

Variants and Fan Cards / wording issue: believer

« on: July 19, 2014, 01:26:03 pm »

so, i have this card named Believer that allows you to put an action card from the play area into your hand and play them again if you have actions left. the original wording was simply:

Choose an Action card you have in Play. Put it into your hand [...]

that causes tracking problems with duration cards though; i target a wharf, i play it again, now i have +4 cards next turn instead of +2, but no card is there to remind me of that. for a while i thought that was okay, because procession does it too, but it still irks me.

so, now I'm searching for possibilities to avoid this. ideas I (and Showdown35) have come up with

[...] if it's not a duration card [...]

clean, but now you also can't target duration cards that kicked in from last turn, which sucks

[...] if it's not a duration card which you played this turn [...]

this works, but I don't want to reference cards that aren't either in my expansion or in the base game. duration cards are in seaside.

[...] if its effect doesn't influence your next turn [...]

sort of works, but what if you play TR - TR - Wharf - Believer, can you target the TR's now? I'd say yes, but it's debatable, which is bad.

[...] if it would normally be discarded during your next Cleanup phase [...]

sort of works, but what about treasury?

none of these is really satisfying. anyone has an idea for a better wording?

19024

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas

« on: July 19, 2014, 11:20:49 am »

Combos With Scout
Action
Cost: $4
----------
The game ends in a tie.



(It's effect is much better if you have a deck full of scouts )

but if this card is invented, all games end with a tie. text that is written below a horizontal line is a general rule that's added to dominion, it always applies, even if the card itself isn't in the supply

This isn't true... The text only applies if the card is in the supply, or in the Black Market. See Baker and Young Witch; their text obviously doesn't apply when they aren't being used that game.

because they say "Setup:", which means "do this when this card is in the supply or in the black market."

I got the "general rule thing from Donald X. here.

19025

Mafia Game Threads / Re: BM17: Artists Mafia (D1!)

« on: July 18, 2014, 11:29:10 pm »

aww that sucks. i'm not actually pro town, i was survivor. i thought making great speaches about how i support town was the best way to go, but apparently not... although you don't even seem to think that i was scum and just lynched me for fun, so maybe it doesn't even matter. maybe if peopel had been more serious...