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7876
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Cards you only need one copy of
« on: February 22, 2012, 04:16:28 pm »
Well, now that we've taken a single joke and stretched it over about 10 posts, can we get back on topic...?

It's interesting I think to look also at the flipside of this: When might you want multiple copies of a card you'd normally only be interested in having one of? When is buying 2-3+ chapels a good idea? What board makes you want to buy multiple curses? How about something that's powered by multiple Envoys (that isn't just a long BMU+ game)?

7877
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Card Idea: Rebuild
« on: February 21, 2012, 10:10:00 am »
It's a good idea, one I've used a very similar card to in some games with a friend (I have a card called Redesign in my Wedding fan expansion). It's slightly different (you discard your deck then may trash up to two cards from your discard), but has a similar overall effect. We've found it's very nice at various points, especially for transitioning you deck from one state (e.g. building up to get some nice expensive cards) into another (e.g. turning some of those cards into engine components).

7878
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Card Idea: Migrant Worker, a 1-cost card.
« on: February 21, 2012, 10:07:10 am »
Basically, it's 'save $1 for later' if you buy it (assuming you have extra buys), but also drastically ups the value of upgrade type cards on coppers (as you're turning your coppers into one-shot Markets). It seems balanced enough in most cases, but doesn't really seem very interesting - if you have spare buys, you buy it, otherwise, you probably don't. There's no huge strategy about it, basically.

7879
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Prize Race
« on: February 19, 2012, 06:13:53 pm »
That hard one is going to be very, very hard to solve... but I'll set an upper bound at 16 turns.


T1/2: Buy Chapel, Tournament
T3/4: Buy Lighthouse, Chapel 4 coppers
-Now we have 9 cards in deck. We want to trim our deck as fast as possible, which unfortunately means foregoing a Silver here (as the worst drawing is 3E/2C, 4C/Chap, and Tournament can be in the chapel hand or miss the reshuffle, it doesn't matter).

T5: Draw Chapel, 3C/LH, play LH, trash 1 Copper, buy Silver
-Alternatively, we could draw the Chapel with some Estates. I'm reasonably confident in saying that would be faster (so it doesn't happen).
Deck: 3 Copper, 1 Silver, 1 Lighthouse (in play), 3 Estates, 1 Chapel, 1 Tournament

T6: Draw 3E/Tournament/(shuffle)Copper/(Tournament)Copper. Play Tournament, have 5, buy Mining Village
-We need extra money to hit that province, and Mining Village will be 2 moneys later. Again, we had to reach 4 here (Lighthouse, Tournament (if that was last turn we'd have trashed an extra copper plus having it this shuffle), +2 money cards or 1 and chapel (and chapel with the estates is again great)), so I'm happy this is about the worst we can do.
Deck: 3 Copper, 1 Silver, 1 Lighthouse, 3 Estates, 1 Chapel, 1 Tournament, 1 Mining Village

T7: 1 Chapel, 1 Silver, 1 Copper, (Shuffle) 1 Lighthouse, 1 Mining Village. Play MV, draw Copper. Play Lighthouse, Trash 2 copper, buy Nothing
- Clearing our deck some more.
Deck: 1 Copper, 1 Silver, 1 Lighthouse (in play), 3 Estates, 1 Chapel, 1 Tournament, 1 Mining Village

T8: 1 Copper, 3 Estates, 1 Tournament. Play tournament (shuffle), draw MV, play that, draw Silver. Buy MV.
-With Silver (2), Tournament (1), MVx2 (4) and Lighthouse (1), we have the required money. We just need to clean the rest of our deck a little more.
Deck: 1 Copper, 1 Silver, 1 Lighthouse, 3 Estates, 1 Chapel, 1 Tournament, 2 Mining Village

T9: Chapel (shuffle), Silver, Lighthouse, Copper, Estate. Trash Copper, Estate, play Lighthouse, buy nothing
-The deck can't stop us trashing Estates forever. Now it has to bite the bullet and we get them out of the way.
Deck: 1 Silver, 1 Lighthouse (in play), 2 Estates, 1 Chapel, 1 Tournament, 2 Mining Village

T10: Estate, Estate, Tournament, 2 MV. Play MV, MV, trashing both, play Tournament. Draw Chapel, Silver. trash Estates. Buy Province
-And we clean the deck up. With our deck being so small even if the MV's missed the shuffle (were drawn on turn 9) we'd still draw them again here and get our Province.
Deck: 1 Silver, 1 Lighthouse, 1 Chapel, 1 Tournament, 1 Province

T11: Draw deck. Play tournament, gain Trusty Steed. Play Lighthouse, play TS, Coin & action. Trash Silver. Buy Tournament
-Final Consolidation. We have 4 again for another tournament (and we're now going to hit twice, of course).
Deck: 1 Lighthouse (in play), 1 Chapel, 2 Tournament, 1 Province, 1 Trusty Steed

T12: Draw deck. Tournament for Followers, Trusty Steed for Action & Cards, Tournament for Bag of Gold.
-3 Prizes down
Deck: 1 Lighthouse, 1 Chapel, 2 Tournament, 1 Province, 1 Trusty Steed, 1 Followers, 1 Bag of Gold

T13: Draw Chapel, Bag of Gold, Tournament, Tournament, Followers. Do nothing.

T14: Draw Province, Trusty Steed, Lighthouse, (shuffle) Chapel, Bag of Gold. Trusty Steed for Card+Actions, draw Tournament+Tournament. Tournament for Diadem. Trash Lighthouse.
-Unfortunately, we can't guarantee we get to the province again with another Tournament to play.
Deck: 1 Chapel, 2 Tournament, 1 Province, 1 Trusty Steed, 1 Followers, 1 Bag of Gold, 1 Diadem

T15: Draw Followers, Tournament (shuffle), Tournament, Bag of Gold, Diadem. Do nothing.
-It should be noted, TS can't be in this hand, or we can draw our deck with it+Followers.

T16: Draw Trusty Steed, Province, Chapel (shuffle), Bag of Gold, Diadem. Play Trusty Steed for cards+actions, definitely draw a tournament, play it for Princess. Buy a victory copper.


If you're okay with trashing prizes, I think you can change what you do from about turn 13, and cut about 2 turns off this solution. Also, as with any 'worst luck' solution I've made a number of assumptions, many of with are hard to justify. In particular regarding chaple hands and getting certain amounts to make buys.

And there's probably a mistake somewhere anyway...

7880
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: A ____ but not a ____ Riddle
« on: February 15, 2012, 06:36:08 pm »
I think we might have just about beaten this thread to death, but not killed it.

Wait, maybe I just did? One can only hope...

7881
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: A ____ but not a ____ Riddle
« on: February 13, 2012, 08:55:39 am »
I thought it was obvious by now.

Well, apparent, but not obvious.

Hints:
It's a word puzzle, not a card effect or similar puzzle
Look for something every first card/word has. Then check that none of the second cards have them

And the solution if you're still stumped:
Double letters

7882
2011 / Re: Winner of the Kingdom Design Challenge
« on: February 13, 2012, 08:38:34 am »
Thanks.

For reference, I was using Firefox (I think) and used the PM button under your avatar. I don't know exactly what might have caused the problem otherwise.

7883
I wonder how many Bully achievements will be people playing Minion decks? In which case, a good number of those 'attacks' will be that dangerous move of playing a silver-equivalent (not saying that shouldn't be counted, of course, but it's worth noting). Having looked through Jeti's achievements (well, some of them) it does look like about 2/3rds are Minions with support(ing attacks).

7884
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: A ____ but not a ____ Riddle
« on: February 12, 2012, 06:28:57 pm »
I'm not certain... but... if I'm right, Nick's doesn't work, but could we have:

A Village but not a Shanty Town?

7885
2011 / Re: Winner of the Kingdom Design Challenge
« on: February 12, 2012, 09:12:20 am »
I have a strange question regarding this. I notice my kingdom isn't on the list, yet I definitely PMed it to theory. I also PMed theory asking why it wasn't on the list and if there was some kind of problem with it. And theory is a pretty nice guy, so I'd normally expect a reply, even if it was just 'you never sent anything to me'. But I didn't get one. Which makes me wonder if theory got any of my three PMs I've now sent.

I'm not too annoyed by it, but I'm a little disappointed to not even be on the list or get a reply, and it'd be nice to know if it's just something strange with the forum software or whatever.

(For the record I think I'll keep my kingdom quiet for now. Might be other oppertunities to submit it for competition after all)

7886
Dominion General Discussion / Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« on: February 10, 2012, 03:02:22 pm »
Sifting first seems a little strong for $4, but it still wouldn't really be better than Cartographer. Maybe with things like Great Halls/alternate VPs, but Cartographer also goes through your Coppers or other cards you don't want, making it more versatile. I'd certainly agree with it being +1 card, +1 action, draw victory cards in the first 4 cards, though.

7887
Dominion General Discussion / Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« on: February 09, 2012, 07:26:51 pm »
While I'm not yet going to change my stance on Adventurer (Transmute might get the vote, though...), I will say I agree somewhat with one thing Perd is saying: It's good on boards with special effect treasures. However, you need to be able to have a good chance of digging for those treasures, so there's no point building a HoP board intending for Adventurer to grab them if your deck still has all it's coppers. So it requires some trashing still. And even then, it's probably not the best way of getting your components together.

Adventurer does, however, combo nicely with HoP. It's a good way of getting at least 1-2 extra unique cards in play -Adventurer and hopefully 1-2 new treasures you drew. 1 card to boost Horn by 3 isn't bad.

Perhaps the biggest complaint I have with Adventurer is... while it occasionally shines, just like any other card, far far too often it sits at $6 and is pretty much worthless, with Gold just being more useful. But the more I think about it the more I feel that applies even more to Transmute... bah.

Someone, stand up and defend Transmute! Show me why I should stick to my stubborn opinion :).

7888
Game Reports / Re: Dear My Opponent: I am Sorry
« on: February 09, 2012, 02:04:48 pm »
Dear Mugivi,

I apologised at the time, but I'm still just sorry for this game. We both started down the obvious copper-enabler synergy route, only to realise we were lacking things like good draw. Yet while your deck stalled out, my very similar deck hit Golds, then Provinces, and ended up with what should have been a very close game ending 40-15.

7889
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Dominion Sporcle Super Quiz!
« on: February 09, 2012, 09:37:13 am »
Just tried it, pretty neat. Didn't read the thread before trying and was left with 2:59. I got to the end, stopped, was confused as to why the timer was still going down, looked up, apparently I only answered 49/50 questions. Reread everything, nope, answered everything. Checked again more slowly. Missing a card set. I really don't think counting Promo as a card set is fair. I mean I got it in about 5 seconds, but it isn't really a set. It's 5 individual cards.

I'd also accept Dominion as an alternate name for Base.

7890
Dominion General Discussion / Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« on: February 09, 2012, 08:18:57 am »
Adventurer - Without other strong terminals on board, Adventurer is good. When you have e.g. Gold, Gold, Silver, Silver and 7 Coppers - Adventurer is stronger than Gold. That is of course still bad, but not worse!

There are a few issues with this analysis. Firstly, this situation makes Adventurer better than Gold by such a small margin that it's virtually ignorable - an average of $3.09 to $3. Better, but the difference is so small it'll hardly matter. Second, there being no other worthwhile terminal on the board (even assuming costing $5 or less) is unlikely. Not impossible, but unlikely. Third, by the time you have 2 Gold and 2 Silver, chances are you're going to want to green. So that $6 is probably a mistake spent on an Adventurer, or a Gold. Actually, 2 Silver 2 Gold is an unlikely situation. Something like 3 Silver 2 Gold or 4 Silver 1 Gold is more likely - in the first case, you're even more likely to be Greening. In the second, a Gold is just as good. Finally, as you're likely greening by the time Adventurer becomes worthwhile, the cycling is actually a detriment, holding it back even more.

In short, the situations it'll be good as a lone terminal are unlikely for various reasons, and when it is, it's barely better than Gold anyway.

I voted for Adventurer, by the way. It's not that I think it's a bad card, but it's the card who is least often worthwhile considering it's cost, and when it is, generally doesn't do much better than other cards at it's cost. Perhaps Platinum games with light trashing are the only case where it is can actually shine.

As for Transmute and Thief - Thief is pretty good in 4 player games, and okay in 3 play, reasonably often. Transmute is often totally worthless but occasionally is a very nice card.

7891
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Why no +card and +$ without +actions?
« on: February 08, 2012, 05:26:54 pm »
I personally have this in my fan expansion (I won't try and claim it's an original idea, of course). I haven't tested it a huge amount, but we've found it's a relatively nice card to have - partially because my set is very action/engine oriented, so having something more BM and simple contrasts with it well. It seems okay at $6 to us, even if it isn't the most exciting card.

7892
Curly's strat looks really good. I'm drooling just thinking about what I could do with all those extra actions! Play... oh, some Great Halls, Pearl Divers (lots of them, could be loads of good buried cards!), and then finish off with probably buying even more villages.

7893
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Some hypothetical questions about cards
« on: February 06, 2012, 02:22:46 pm »
Scout should look at the top 6 cards of your deck, not the top 4.

Fishing village should be $4.

Adventurer should be $5.

Merchant ship should get the +buy, not Wharf (I'm glad I'm not the only one who's thought that..)

Horn of Plenty should be worth $1.

JoaT's spy effect should happen last.  JoaT is too strong not because of the power of individual effects but because of the self-synergy.

Farmland should be worth 3VP.

Torturer should only discard 1 card if you choose that option and already have <5 cards in hand.  Donald says the attacks are designed not to stack within a turn and the "gain a curse in hand" seems to be an attempt to do this, but Torturer still stacks like crazy.

Harvest should reveal 5 cards.

Tribute should reveal 3 cards and let you choose two.

Jester should not let you gain more than one card.

Develop should let you choose whether to put cards on the deck or not.

IMO of course!

I disagree with a lot of these:

Fishing Village at $4 is something I considered and almost put alongside Ambassador at $4. I'm not too I agree with it now. Firstly it means there are no $3 durations (meh), but also... what would really change? Not grabbing two FV's with $6, occasionally?

I don't think HoP needs $1. It's a niche card currently, but it's not so weak as to need a whole $1 boost (that's a seriously large boost, BTW, just think of the difference between Copper and Silver, or Silver and Gold). There's the neatness of it being a treasure therefore giving >=$1, but then again, we already have a treasure that can give 0 (Philosopher's Stone)

If you want to change Jack, bear in mind it's designed as a post-attack repairer. Drawing cards, then trying to get rid of the top-deckked junk you've been left with defeats the idea. It makes it weaker, yes, but defeats the idea. I considered the following I'd have tried if I were designing Jack myself:
"Look at the top card of your deck: Discard it or put it back. Then choose 2 (the choices must be different): Gain a Silver, OR Draw until you have 5 cards in hand, OR you may trash a non-treasure card from your hand."

So you get the top deck clearing (Jack's weakest effect in general... I suspect) for free, then choose two of the other three. So unless you're getting hit by lots of different attacks (discard, deck order mess-up, trashing and junking), it still fulfils the original intent, while being generally weaker in non-attack games.

Farmland at 3VP would be less interesting. You'd almost always take it over a Duchy, reducing the interesting strategic space around the card.

Torturer... it'd make the card nicer. But it would be awkward to word. And I'm not convinced it's necessary.

Harvest revealing 5 cards... actually, I quite like that! I expect it would gain you about $0.75 more and make the card reliably about $3-4 with a chance of being a bit more or less, rather than generally $3 and occasionally $2 or $4.

Tribute I agree with what others have said. Let it just compute both cards regardless of their names.

Jester... what, you can choose one to gain, but everyone else has to gain a copy of it. Far too targetted. Everyone reveals a King's Court. Result? Everyone but someone you choose gains a KC. If you want to change this, better change Noble Brigand and Thief too.

Develop I also like the idea of. Develop needs a little something to jump start it, since it's such a cute little card.

7894
It looks like I made a number of strategic and tactical errors - most notably assuming what I saw as a sub-par opening would mean a weak and easy opponent. Which is always a bad assumption to make  :-[

In short I guess I need to take away these things:
1) If an opponent does something strange, assume they've probably seen something, not that they're bad. Look for whatever it is they've probably seen.
2) BM decks need to end the game quickly. Don't get bogged down in a Duchy/Harem rush if your opponent is getting VPs elsewhere.

7895
I'm not convinced by Salvager and Highways not weakening each other. Salvager after Highway means the benefits of the Highway is completely lost, as I've reduced the cost by as much as I've lost from salvaging. And a $4 to trash a card seems totally not worth it (compared to Silver at least). Highway into Salvager means either the Highways are just cantrips, or all the Salvager is doing is trash a card, +1 buy.

I did consider Jester, and certainly should have considered it more carefully. But his deck was made up cards I either couldn't gain (e.g Highways which ran out by turn 10), didn't want (e.g. Salvager) and the rest was too small a target to bother with.

Woodcutter was too early. I'd have gone for another highway there.
Turn 8 you should buy a province, methinks.
Turn 11 I would again go Highway>silver
Turn 12 I would buy Highway
Turn 15 - at this point, it's sorta hard to say, since I can't see the board and only have a so-so feel for what was out there (wish it were a CR log...), but I probably wouldn't be buying that estate yet. Certainly if you're preferring Harem to duchy a couple turns later, going estate there over nothing is probably wrong.
And down the stretch, you seem to be grabbing lots of things that I don't understand very well, but I really need to see the score and board to accurately judge an endgame, and I don't feel like taking the amount of time to reconstruct everything.

Woodcutter probably was too early. I'm not sure why I bought it when I did. Probably had a brain fart and though, I have $4 to spend, might as well get one.
Turn 8 I didn't have any Golds, and I think only 2 Silver and a Woodcutter were in my deck, plus Highways. Perhaps Province here would have been better, but I don't think it would have been by much if it was.
Turn 11/12 as I mentioned, Highways were all gone. I probably would have otherwise. Sorry it's not a CR log, this game happened only an hour ago :).
In the greening... yeah, that's where things started to become a bit of a blur. I think I took the Estate because I thought it gave me a 1 VP edge, and without point tracker, I thought we were otherwise very close. It also looked like the game was going to end very soon, and I wasn't expecting or ready for a drawn out endgame. I probably played it all wrong though - I was just trying to amass as many VPs as I could, not expecting my deck to stall quite as much as it did.

7896
2011 / Re: Final Voting: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Kingdom Design Challenge
« on: February 04, 2012, 07:21:19 pm »
At this point, as sad as it is, I think tactical voting begins to play in. Those who voted for the ones not near the lead change their votes, so their strong second can win it. Personally I've changed my vote from 5 to 6, because as I said, it's close between those for which I like more, and my least favourites by a landslide... were 2 and 9.

7897
Would you not consider one or two terminal actions with some better-than-silver Cantrips BM? My deck had 6 actions at the end of the game - 3 Highways when I'd hit $5, as I'm pretty sure they're better than Silvers, one Cutpurse as it seemed the best $4 for the board, one Woodcutter to get a +buy when I'd already gotten some Highways, and one Salvager during the endgame which never even turned up when the Estates were out and I pretty much needed to risk on it hitting something like a Highway or Gold to win.

(Simulator shows Cutpurse+Highway beats flat cutpurse about 60/37. It looks like buying a Woodcutter over a Silver hurts more than it helps, to my surprise. Scrap that, the Woodcutter helps as well, but at that point it's not too easy to accurately sim.).

Also, I tried to simulate the game - getting my opponent's strategy in there accurately is tough, but making roughly what he did seems to give me an 85/15 win rate from second seat. So despite me not feeling like I was unlucky, I guess I was. Or I just can't simulate his strategy very well.

7898
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201202/04/game-20120204-154141-dc7d239d.html

Key cards: Highway, Salvager, Harem, Vineyards.

Eyeing up the board, it looks like an obvious BM game. There's Highways but the only +buy are Salvager (which I percieved as a total nombo) and Woodcutter, which seems a little too slow. Salvager is the only trashing, and with so little +actions, it just seems a fairly straight BM game would be best here. With that in mind, I opened Cutpurse/Silver with the intent to get to Gold quickly, then buy Harems/Provinces, grabbing some Highways if I hit $5 early (as they can't really hurt).

Well, my opponent goes for Salvager. An acceptable opening buy. I pass on them, as it severely weakens Highways and I don't want to be stuck with Silvers for $5. Things seem to be going okay. I get up to $6, grab a few Gold, then start hitting provinces. My opponent has also grabbed Highways, and seeing him Highway into Salvager, I figure I've got an easy win.

About 6 turns later, and I'm wondering why I'm not further ahead than I am. I don't seem to be doing too well on grabbing Provinces - were those Highways a bad plan? Should I have gone for a Jester instead? I grab a Woodcutter - I only have one other terminal, after all, so the +buy might actually help.

Later still and I seem to be struggling. Despite all expectations, I'm falling behind on Provinces and he's starting down Vineyards. I grab at the Duchies and Harems, but it's no good. I seem to have lost. My shuffle luck didn't seem that bad, and I pretty much just played BM with Highways and Harems, yet I got trounced by what I'd dismissed as a totally sub-par strategy. What was my core mistake? Did I green too early? Were the Highways totally the wrong move? Did I just get unlucky and not realise?

7899
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Some hypothetical questions about cards
« on: February 03, 2012, 02:17:41 pm »
It's hard for me to comment too much as I first got into Dominion after Prosperity came out, but back at the time of Intrigue, wasn't there a much higher density of victory kingdom cards - especially ones which do things, as they all came in Intrigue? Perhaps that was the main reason for Scout's price - it made more sense at the time in Intrigue, but has since weakened with few victory hybrids coming later (Island in seaside, nothing at all since? Well, excluding Tunnel).

7900
Dominion General Discussion / Some hypothetical questions about cards
« on: February 03, 2012, 07:54:30 am »
Basically, I've been wondering recently, what if card X cost 1 more, or 1 less, or did/didn't give a buy, or something else relatively small. Mostly relating to cards at the top/bottom end of their price range, with a similar card to compare to. And with Qvists list's, it's actually possible in some sense to say how much a card would change, which is nice.

But anyway, the things I've been wondering are:
1) What if Wharf didn't have that +buy, but Merchant Ship did?
Donald says Wharf got the buy to compare more favorably with MS... was it truly necessary? Certainly, Wharf's buy is very useful, but I doubt Wharf would really fall out of the top 10 $5's without it, or not by much if it did. And Merchant Ship would certainly benefit - that next turn essentially now has a free Grand Market thrown in. But I still think Wharf would be a lot better than MS.

2) What if Ambassador cost $4?
Opening double Ambassador is often a very strong move, and Ambassador itself is very powerful. The jump from $3 to $4 is not huge, so preventing the double Ambassador opening and not much else doesn't seem like it would ruin the card or the card's availability much. Ambassador would still be a top $4, methinks, but would probably open Ambassador games up a little.

3) What if Adventurer cost $5?
Adventurer is generally a bad card, not because it's weak, but because it does too little for it's cost. It's uncommon to see a board where Adventurer > Gold. But then, Gold and Adventurer have the same cost. If Adventurer cost only $5, well, would they suddenly become too powerful? It's a big drop down into $5 territory after all. The best comparison is probably Harvest. Harvest will often get you $3, occasionally $4 or $2, and cycles 4 cards. Adventurer gets you twice the average value of treasures left in your deck - generally this will be about $2 early, rising towards $3-4 mid-lategame and not slowing down when you start greening, and cycles... some cards. I don't think there's a big difference personally, although of course this ignores one big fact: Adventurer draws specific treasures. So if you can arrange to draw those specific treasures it can be far, far better for you and can set up some combos. So it might be slightly better than Harvest. But Harvest is hardly one of the power $5's.

Those are the main things I've been pondering recently. I'm not saying I think they should be changed (otherwise, I'd have gone to the variants forum to be ripped to pieces :P), and I'm not saying Donald made a mistake with these cards, but I do think some of these cards, now we've had a while to play with them and see what they do, just slightly stick out to me.

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