2951
Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: Coup I
« on: July 15, 2013, 05:07:32 pm »
So we're all still waiting for Grujah to challenge or not challenge Liopoil's Duke, right?
Show Posts
This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.
2952
Mafia Game Threads / Re: MXXVII: CLUE Mafia Day1
« on: July 15, 2013, 04:32:09 pm »I continue to find Voltaire manifestly the scummiest player.
Why?
You previously voted Jimmmm for his RVS (and his flavor claim suggestion I think?), which fine, weren't particularly strong reasons, but then you switched it over with:
TA's case on Volt is good. Best think we have going for us so far. Stop voting for ash please. I doubt this is scum ash.
TA's case consisted of:
Back-to-back posts by Voltaire saying "Let me clarify this, in case someone calls me on it", and "People said we should vote? Here, I'll vote!" seems a little too crowd-pleasing to me.
At this point you think he's manifestly the scummiest player based on TA's reasoning alone? That seems like an awfully strong escalation of a pretty slim "case" which hasn't been expanded on at all.
2953
Mafia Game Threads / Re: MXXVII: CLUE Mafia Day1
« on: July 15, 2013, 02:36:46 pm »
Oh, also
If I'm the Hider, each night I will take the list of players, in the order listed in the OP, and starting from my own name, count down the number that is next to my flavour name in the second OP, skipping myself, anyone who's dead, and anyone I've already hidden behind, unless that's everyone in which case that will reset. Whichever name I land on, I will hide behind that player.
If I'm the Hider, each night I will take the list of players, in the order listed in the OP, and starting from my own name, count down the number that is next to my flavour name in the second OP, skipping myself, anyone who's dead, and anyone I've already hidden behind, unless that's everyone in which case that will reset. Whichever name I land on, I will hide behind that player.
2954
Mafia Game Threads / Re: MXXVII: CLUE Mafia Day1
« on: July 15, 2013, 02:29:29 pm »
I think it's worth noting that we still have TEN DAYS. I don't think we should rush to lynch just to "get day 1 over with". We should take our time, talk things out, look at different angles. There is no need to rush so much, and although everyone is saying this is impossible to reread, it wasn't really all that long, especially if you are focussing on one poster or another. I hope my big list would make that easier too, since you can see where people made substantive posts and go back and look at those without the filter of my thoughts on them. There are 25 posts per page, right? That's not so hard.
Also, I've been reading up on some of the stuff on the site linked in the first posts, and I stumbled upon this, which I thought was interesting:
There is some arguing about how much this can extrapolate to outliers, and of course it is a different site, but I think the argument that a shorter Day 1 is better for Town is simply incorrect, although too long could be a problem, I don't know why we're having such a fuss about it already. I think we're having some good discussion, which is the most important thing, right?
Of course this is a different site
Also, I've been reading up on some of the stuff on the site linked in the first posts, and I stumbled upon this, which I thought was interesting:
Quote
However, we can follow that up by constructing means and confidence intervals for both towns that win and towns that lose. Towns that win have a mean D1 of 18.94 pages with a 95% CI of (15.26, 22.62); towns that lose have a mean D1 length of 14.14 pages with a 95% CI of (10.4, 17.87); the fact that each mean falls outside the opposite CI suggests there is a statistical difference between the means.
There is some arguing about how much this can extrapolate to outliers, and of course it is a different site, but I think the argument that a shorter Day 1 is better for Town is simply incorrect, although too long could be a problem, I don't know why we're having such a fuss about it already. I think we're having some good discussion, which is the most important thing, right?
Of course this is a different site
2955
Mafia Game Threads / Re: MXXVII: CLUE Mafia Day1
« on: July 15, 2013, 01:57:47 pm »
Question regarding Liopoil for everyone not named Liopoil:
Many people seem to have a scum-read here. I don't see it. I assume it has something to do with his posts here as compared to other games?
Anyone care to explain this in specific detail? There very well might be something there, but most of the posts about him have been vague statements that he just feels off. What specifically is off, let's talk about this!
Many people seem to have a scum-read here. I don't see it. I assume it has something to do with his posts here as compared to other games?
Anyone care to explain this in specific detail? There very well might be something there, but most of the posts about him have been vague statements that he just feels off. What specifically is off, let's talk about this!
2956
Mafia Game Threads / Re: MXXVII: CLUE Mafia Day1
« on: July 15, 2013, 01:48:17 pm »
Okay, so I didn't post yesterday due to life and trying to not post so much, I'm going to compose a couple of big posts, 1 about my thoughts on Ashersky, and maybe look again at Nkirbit and Shraeye just to give alternatives some thought. But briefly for now, I'm 100% okay with an Ashersky lynch, and here's why:
With all this talk about whether it is too crazy to be scum or so crazy it's brilliant scum, I remember a Diplomacy strategy article I read a few years ago (linked here, give it a skim). "Chainsaw" seems to have another meaning in Mafia, but the definition of "Chainsaw Diplomacy" in Diplomacy fits very well with what I think Ashersky is doing here.
I'm not 100% convinced by any means, I think there is room for error, but I think it is perfectly reasonable, savy scum play to go completely ballistic because "scum would never do that". I could also understand Ash being legitimately frustrated, but I'm not entirely sure why and I see just way too many good-for-scum-bad-for-town holes in his logic to get off the wagon. I think Ash is currently our best lynch, but I don't know that we should all jump on it unexamined. I'll go through in more detail in a bit.
With all this talk about whether it is too crazy to be scum or so crazy it's brilliant scum, I remember a Diplomacy strategy article I read a few years ago (linked here, give it a skim). "Chainsaw" seems to have another meaning in Mafia, but the definition of "Chainsaw Diplomacy" in Diplomacy fits very well with what I think Ashersky is doing here.
I'm not 100% convinced by any means, I think there is room for error, but I think it is perfectly reasonable, savy scum play to go completely ballistic because "scum would never do that". I could also understand Ash being legitimately frustrated, but I'm not entirely sure why and I see just way too many good-for-scum-bad-for-town holes in his logic to get off the wagon. I think Ash is currently our best lynch, but I don't know that we should all jump on it unexamined. I'll go through in more detail in a bit.
2957
Mafia Game Threads / Re: MXXVII: CLUE Mafia Day1
« on: July 14, 2013, 12:08:59 am »
Another thought: there have been a lot of mis-understood plans and alternative plans. At the beginning we were all feeling things out I think, but does anyone think any of the later things could have been an attempt to make sure that if the Hider dies in the night, it isn't clear who he/she hid behind?
2958
Mafia Game Threads / Re: MXXVII: CLUE Mafia Day1
« on: July 14, 2013, 12:05:52 am »Also, Umbrage gave this post (#277) from nkirbit a rating of 0:
I think he is severely underestimating how scum-like this post is. This post is just too...what is the word...saccharine?
Consider also, that while nkirbit seems very versed in the reasons why people like myself disagree with this long detour into theory, yet virtually all of his posts are simply contributing theory. If he sees the negatives, why is he adding to them?
I give it a score of -15. nkirbit/liopoil/xxxxx is the scumteam!
Hmmm. I did read it as neutral as I initially read through it (because that was a new one today) but you make a good point. I was a bit surprised that I found nkirbit's other post as scummy as I did, given that that wouldn't have been my general, unexamined impression of him, but there is something of a strange narrative there. I don't really buy the sweetness of his tone as a scum thing necessarily, given that he's trying to diffuse the me & ash fight, but is there a reason we should see it as scummy? Is it especially weird for him, or something he does in certain types of situations?
Anything else particularly scummy about that post? I was already thinking I should be looking closer at nkirbit than I was yesterday.
I don't see the liopoil scumness though, he seems like one of the players that has been honestly trying to contribute to town.
2959
Mafia Game Threads / Re: MXXVII: CLUE Mafia Day1
« on: July 13, 2013, 09:27:39 pm »
Wow that was big, sorry. But hey, I'm keeping it all in one convenient post! Okay, I'm done posting for the day now, unless anyone actually wants me to address anything, but I'm fighting my urge to be such a chatterbox.
See the last page for the tl;dr version, but my vote rests on Ashersky, although nkirbit, and Shraeye also seem a bit anti-town to me in places.
See the last page for the tl;dr version, but my vote rests on Ashersky, although nkirbit, and Shraeye also seem a bit anti-town to me in places.
2960
Mafia Game Threads / Re: MXXVII: CLUE Mafia Day1
« on: July 13, 2013, 09:24:38 pm »
The First 200 Posts, an Analytical Summary
Okay, here's my giant summary and explanations. I went up to the post before this because I may want to refer back to it later, and if I'm making notes for me, why not share them? (NOTE: I skipped very short/content-free posts.)
Robz -8, +2
138: We shouldn't have a Hider plan because Hider died night one last time. (Comes out later that Vig killed Hider's target.) -5
141: Explains situation, but why bring it up as a reason not to have a plan then? +1
144: Robz thinks I'm funny.+50 +0
145: Gives an actual legit defense to Jimmm's RVS vote. +1
183: "*Insert me asking a question about the plan, so as to demonstrate that I could be the Hider*" I have no idea what to make of this. 0
185: Also finds "lynch the new guy" scummy. VOTES JIMM. 0
194: "Metas are easily faked." (in reference to raerae.) 0
292: Agrees with Ash that there was "too much flavor talk". Opposes ALL hider plans. Says that talking about Hiders is reducing the number of Hider possibilities. Tracker is better than Vig. Likes TA's case on Volt. (251 which was literally just him saying that back-to-back defensive clarifications looked scummy, and voting him.) Says case on Volt is best we have so far, please stop voting for Ash. On the one hand, this does feel towny to me on a kind of surface level, but on the other, calling that a "case" feels like overselling it quite a bit. -3
293: VOTE: VOLTAIRE
Raerae -6, +3
131: NO CLAIMING!! 0
135: Says won't participate in list plan. Points out bad example of town getting steamrolled with Hider (but mostly due to town stupidity rather than the Hider plan.) -5
198: Has no faith in town not being idiots. (is it bad I want to give +1 for this?) 0
201: Likes plans that involve NO CLAIMING. Asks for Volt to explain reads. +1
202: Asks why Liopoil likes his plan. 0
210: Doesn't want to discuss Tracker/Vig because doesn't want more pages of "impossible to reread material". Asks what I want out of theory discussion. You know, I was getting a bit annoyed at other things in context when I read this one, but reading it in isolation and with distance, it reads towny to me, just annoyed about talking theory. +1
219: Explains why doesn't like theory talk. 0
265: VOTE:UMBRAGEOFSNOW for talking about theory and saying someone misrepresented me. -1
266: Asks Shraeye for reasons for the Liopoil vote, grumpily. +1
290: Calls out Eevee for only posting once in first ~200 posts. Wants Chairs to post more. 0
296: VOTE: LIOPOIL for drawing out theory talk. (Consistent with previous vote, not going to subtract twice). 0
Liopoil -0, +10
200: Doesn't like flavor naming. Wants to group-decide which role Tracker/Vig chooses to be. Points out established problem that my plan is basically random. Points out silly non-problem of skipping oneself. Wants to make list for each person if they were the Hider, picking using flavor-name-number. +5
203: Wants to maximize tactical utility of Hider. +1
209: Thinks we should do whatever it takes to win, not resort to laziness. Still missing fine details of skipping yourself in my plan. +1
211: Likes Vig better than Tracker generally, likes Tracker better in this setup. Wants consensus to avoid town-on-town worrying about false positives. +1
212: "Town's best chance of victory is to have successful PR use. So we should do whatever we can to maximize [that]". 0
214: Any plan is better than doing nothing. +1
294: Compares various plans. "Theory talk as fine, as long as we scumhunt plenty. I don't think we're doing too bad in that regard." Doesn't like Ash wagon. FoS: Shraeye, Ashersky, Raerae. Supports a voluntary Hider plan. +1
Twistedarcher -1, +4
111: Proposes first Hider plan. Flaws could be exploited easily by scum, but I don't take this to be malicious here, just only starting to think out loud about it. 0
118: Points out Vig chance to kill Hider. 0
126: Agrees with scum targeting Hider based on lists problem. +1
127: Discusses pro's of confirming town vs. Finding scum. Sensible. 0
158: Hopes we can try this "not being stupid" thing. Sees no benefit to losing the Hider without gaining any information. +1
161: Suggests only using lists N1, freeing up N2. 0
167: Suggests using timestamp of threadlock post as a randomization method for how many people on list Hider should skip. Still vulnerable to analysis, but impossible to manipulate. 0
226: Points out that shraeye's list of complaints (221) were all off topic while complaining about no one accomplishing anything. +1
228: Says not participating in planning is beneficial to scum. Denies rolefishing. Doesn't care about RVS. +1
229: Accuses mcmcsalot of giving scum advice for his analysis post. I thought it was helpful, I think all this assuming scum can't figure this stuff out is not actually helpful to town, but is a nice way to look like you're being helpful while actually preventing us from double-guessing scum plans in the long run if this is policy. -1
231: Wants plan with least potential for Hider screwing it up, so town can be sure. 0
251: VOTE VOLTAIRE for back-to-back paranoid clarifications. 0
Shraeye -10, +0
221: Declares previous hundred posts worthless. "If whatever we can do to maximize [town's chances] involves jamming the thread with theory talk, [shraeye] isn't interested." Mocks my thinking out loud with strawman "I just shouldn't vote for any of my scumreads then". VOTE: LIOPOIL to get reactions. -10
232: Explains why doesn't like theory talk. Accuses all of us of not "letting game start". Thinks plans aren't worth caring about. 0
263: Says I'm wrong about assuming Mafia stupidity being the only reason to not talk about anything. Commands me to stop talking about anything because I can't convince Ash that I'm right (which I'm not trying to do, but I guess I can see this, maybe.) 0
288: VOTE: ASHERSKY because likes wagons. 0
Eevee -0, +1
157: Points out that in Robz's example, town Vig shooting Hider is evidence that that games Hider plan didn't make the Hider targets too obvious, rather than what Robz seemed to be saying. Says everyone needs to agree to a plan if we want to have one. (although could be setting up a teammate to derail plan by dissenting loudly.) +1
Voltaire -1, +4
110: Greeting, he's a fan of the film. 0
113: Anti-name claim, could see it making sense later. 0
119: Points out that there are lots of negative utility roles here. 0
124: 1-for-1 good for town (true) but seems to want to under-use the Hider. -1
129: Points out various PR interactions. 0
132: Puts some useful numbers out there for power roles to potentially base decisions on. Points out that scum can do this in secret, someone should do it publicly. +1
137: Points out that town stupidity should be fixable. 0
140: Asks about how Hider died in previous game. 0
156: We have to accept Hider will die sooner or later. 0
159: Says he'd go for the list idea, would want one from everyone. 0
168: Makes impossible suggestion. Probably a mistake. 0
182: Has a townread on me. 0
184: Small scumread on Jimmm for flavor claim suggestion and RVS voting new player (me). +1
186: Can think of sensible flavorclaim scenarios on later days but none that make sense for now. 0
191: Wonders if Jimmm's flavorclaim suggestion was trying to bait people. Explains townread on me based on planning of power role. +1
192: Says raerae is acting like established meta. 0
193: Fixes math mistake. I'm putting this here because he's obsessing over what is best for town. +1
199: semi-V/LA for weekend. (once per day) 0
242: Thinks scum wouldn't aggressively want to maximize town PR. 0
246: Points out error in earlier post, worried about scum tunneling him on it later. 0
247: "who said we couldn't scumhunt? Nobody but the people who didn't like the theory talk. And it's already been raised that theory talk can be a way to catch scum in that it allows them empty posts. I, for one, have gotten a fair amount out of these discussions." VOTE: JIMMMM
Jimmmm -5, +7
112: Name claim suggestion based on names being hard to read (legit). Says he's glad not to be scum on first game back. -5
133: RVS votes Umbrage. 0
142: Joking reply to my "defense" to his RVS vote. I think he's a funny guy. 0
268: Explains vote was RVS + fishing for reactions. Wants to come up with a better (although more complex) Hider algorithm. +1
272: Plan to have his own plan, and have some minority quote it if they agree. This is a good thought, innovative and probably good for town, but might also be a way to get a subset of people to confirm that they may or may not be hider. Still pro-town innovation. +1.
281: Proposes modular arithmetic Hider plan, which is a helpful improvement, although possibly too complicated for some. +5.
Nkirbit -10, +6
147: Points out pros and cons of Hider plans. 0
148: Asks for clarification on Robz's previous game example. 0
155: Disagrees with multi-list plan, loses too much utility, we have to accept that Hider dies sooner or later. +1
172: Thinks my idea would work. 0
179: Points out that we need to avoid flavorclaiming. 0
204: Doesn't think there are bad targets for Hiders. 0
207: Doesn't like overcomplicated plans, because confused screw-ups make the information less trustworthy. +5
240: Didn't consider that scum know own flavornames. Wants to back down from plan now because of serious resistance. (2 posts from Ashersky, 1 from Shraeye, of which the only real point made other than "plans don't work ever" is the flavorname thing, which I find pretty weak.) Weird too back down completely so fast. " It's something that has to be unanimous, and it's not. I think it was a good idea to bring up, but I don't think continuing to pursue it at this point is helpful." -10
249: Expresses mathematical doubt about people scum know not to target. 0
277: Explains why wants to move past theory talk. Says that these are likely Ash and Shraeye's reasons and we should move on. 0
Chairs 0, 0 (Hmmm, is giving no read on anything itself scummy? I'm not sure yet.)
117: Understands first Hider plan. 0
120: Says he thinks we should opt for Tracker over Vig. 0
176: Likes plan. 0
180: Agrees that flavorclaims have no benefit. 0
197: VOTES ROBZ for acting towny. 0
220: Likes plans that avoids lurker issues helping scum narrow Hider list down.
286: Thinks Hider talk is dead but likes Jimmm's idea, FoS: ASHERSKY. 0
291: Responds to being asked to post more by saying doesn't have much to say since mostly likes theory talk. 0
Mcmcsalot -0, +6
218: Likes Hider plan. Vig is bad for town. False positives are bad. Talks about how Detective and Psychologist abilities interact with mafia, what WIFOM interactions may take place. Assumes Mafia are smart and works through their best options. This gives us all a bit to think about, and it's surely something Mafia has thought about, nice that he put it out there. +5
283: VOTE: ASHERSKY for not going along with plans despite liking plans. +1
Ashersky -23, +1
225: Won't be around much this weekend. Opposed to talking about Hiders or plans in any way. Refuses to participate. VOTE: TA for rolefishing with starting out with theory. Says we need RVS for scumhunting. -5
235: Says Robz was being misleading about MXII earlier. Opposed to plans because in that game having a plan (that we already threw out for this reason) got Eevee killed. Has Townread on Robz. "Hider plans do NOTHING but help SCUM KILL THE HIDER." Points out that scum know their own flavornames, which I thought we'd already discussed. This is where I started thinking Ash hadn't read my plan, but I think it's more discounting it for reasons that are untrue. I originally took it as confusion, now it is apparent this is either some weird dogma or assuming my plan is worse than it is for unexplained reasons. -5
245: "I think most of you concerned about the Hider have the wrong idea about the role anyway. It isn't to catch scum, it is to keep an extra towny alive longer. Like a weakened commuter." This seems like a really weird assertion to make for everyone, and like a really good excuse to not actually engage with any of this.-1
254: Doesn't like that conversation helps scum narrow down Hider target. Says knowing who Hider hides behind is not very useful. Asserts that "Hider is not for catching scum," twice. Not in a talking theory way, but in a This Is Fact way. As if to influence the Hider into being less useful. -5
257: " I'm done trying. I'll post again when there's scum hunting to be done." Refusing to even engage me, just dodging the issue. -1
262: Soft-accuses me of being scum for pressing the issue about the unreasoned (and to me, unreasonable) philosophy of Hider's he is asserting here. -1
271: Seems legitimately mystified that I didn't get the vague hints about hunting for power roles earlier. +1
275: Volunteers to self-lynch in exchange for no more theory talk. 0
284: VOTE: ASHERSKY. Self-vote.
298: "I think that given how much I love both claiming AND plans, the fact that I am against this should be a clear sign just how bad it is." Still providing 0 reasoning but insisting that all Hider plans are terrible despite it seeming like there is evidence to the contrary. Why keep repeating this without actually discussing it if not to seem like there are many voices opposed rather than a very loud one? -5
Okay, here's my giant summary and explanations. I went up to the post before this because I may want to refer back to it later, and if I'm making notes for me, why not share them? (NOTE: I skipped very short/content-free posts.)
Robz -8, +2
138: We shouldn't have a Hider plan because Hider died night one last time. (Comes out later that Vig killed Hider's target.) -5
141: Explains situation, but why bring it up as a reason not to have a plan then? +1
144: Robz thinks I'm funny.
145: Gives an actual legit defense to Jimmm's RVS vote. +1
183: "*Insert me asking a question about the plan, so as to demonstrate that I could be the Hider*" I have no idea what to make of this. 0
185: Also finds "lynch the new guy" scummy. VOTES JIMM. 0
194: "Metas are easily faked." (in reference to raerae.) 0
292: Agrees with Ash that there was "too much flavor talk". Opposes ALL hider plans. Says that talking about Hiders is reducing the number of Hider possibilities. Tracker is better than Vig. Likes TA's case on Volt. (251 which was literally just him saying that back-to-back defensive clarifications looked scummy, and voting him.) Says case on Volt is best we have so far, please stop voting for Ash. On the one hand, this does feel towny to me on a kind of surface level, but on the other, calling that a "case" feels like overselling it quite a bit. -3
293: VOTE: VOLTAIRE
Raerae -6, +3
131: NO CLAIMING!! 0
135: Says won't participate in list plan. Points out bad example of town getting steamrolled with Hider (but mostly due to town stupidity rather than the Hider plan.) -5
198: Has no faith in town not being idiots. (is it bad I want to give +1 for this?) 0
201: Likes plans that involve NO CLAIMING. Asks for Volt to explain reads. +1
202: Asks why Liopoil likes his plan. 0
210: Doesn't want to discuss Tracker/Vig because doesn't want more pages of "impossible to reread material". Asks what I want out of theory discussion. You know, I was getting a bit annoyed at other things in context when I read this one, but reading it in isolation and with distance, it reads towny to me, just annoyed about talking theory. +1
219: Explains why doesn't like theory talk. 0
265: VOTE:UMBRAGEOFSNOW for talking about theory and saying someone misrepresented me. -1
266: Asks Shraeye for reasons for the Liopoil vote, grumpily. +1
290: Calls out Eevee for only posting once in first ~200 posts. Wants Chairs to post more. 0
296: VOTE: LIOPOIL for drawing out theory talk. (Consistent with previous vote, not going to subtract twice). 0
Liopoil -0, +10
200: Doesn't like flavor naming. Wants to group-decide which role Tracker/Vig chooses to be. Points out established problem that my plan is basically random. Points out silly non-problem of skipping oneself. Wants to make list for each person if they were the Hider, picking using flavor-name-number. +5
203: Wants to maximize tactical utility of Hider. +1
209: Thinks we should do whatever it takes to win, not resort to laziness. Still missing fine details of skipping yourself in my plan. +1
211: Likes Vig better than Tracker generally, likes Tracker better in this setup. Wants consensus to avoid town-on-town worrying about false positives. +1
212: "Town's best chance of victory is to have successful PR use. So we should do whatever we can to maximize [that]". 0
214: Any plan is better than doing nothing. +1
294: Compares various plans. "Theory talk as fine, as long as we scumhunt plenty. I don't think we're doing too bad in that regard." Doesn't like Ash wagon. FoS: Shraeye, Ashersky, Raerae. Supports a voluntary Hider plan. +1
Twistedarcher -1, +4
111: Proposes first Hider plan. Flaws could be exploited easily by scum, but I don't take this to be malicious here, just only starting to think out loud about it. 0
118: Points out Vig chance to kill Hider. 0
126: Agrees with scum targeting Hider based on lists problem. +1
127: Discusses pro's of confirming town vs. Finding scum. Sensible. 0
158: Hopes we can try this "not being stupid" thing. Sees no benefit to losing the Hider without gaining any information. +1
161: Suggests only using lists N1, freeing up N2. 0
167: Suggests using timestamp of threadlock post as a randomization method for how many people on list Hider should skip. Still vulnerable to analysis, but impossible to manipulate. 0
226: Points out that shraeye's list of complaints (221) were all off topic while complaining about no one accomplishing anything. +1
228: Says not participating in planning is beneficial to scum. Denies rolefishing. Doesn't care about RVS. +1
229: Accuses mcmcsalot of giving scum advice for his analysis post. I thought it was helpful, I think all this assuming scum can't figure this stuff out is not actually helpful to town, but is a nice way to look like you're being helpful while actually preventing us from double-guessing scum plans in the long run if this is policy. -1
231: Wants plan with least potential for Hider screwing it up, so town can be sure. 0
251: VOTE VOLTAIRE for back-to-back paranoid clarifications. 0
Shraeye -10, +0
221: Declares previous hundred posts worthless. "If whatever we can do to maximize [town's chances] involves jamming the thread with theory talk, [shraeye] isn't interested." Mocks my thinking out loud with strawman "I just shouldn't vote for any of my scumreads then". VOTE: LIOPOIL to get reactions. -10
232: Explains why doesn't like theory talk. Accuses all of us of not "letting game start". Thinks plans aren't worth caring about. 0
263: Says I'm wrong about assuming Mafia stupidity being the only reason to not talk about anything. Commands me to stop talking about anything because I can't convince Ash that I'm right (which I'm not trying to do, but I guess I can see this, maybe.) 0
288: VOTE: ASHERSKY because likes wagons. 0
Eevee -0, +1
157: Points out that in Robz's example, town Vig shooting Hider is evidence that that games Hider plan didn't make the Hider targets too obvious, rather than what Robz seemed to be saying. Says everyone needs to agree to a plan if we want to have one. (although could be setting up a teammate to derail plan by dissenting loudly.) +1
Voltaire -1, +4
110: Greeting, he's a fan of the film. 0
113: Anti-name claim, could see it making sense later. 0
119: Points out that there are lots of negative utility roles here. 0
124: 1-for-1 good for town (true) but seems to want to under-use the Hider. -1
129: Points out various PR interactions. 0
132: Puts some useful numbers out there for power roles to potentially base decisions on. Points out that scum can do this in secret, someone should do it publicly. +1
137: Points out that town stupidity should be fixable. 0
140: Asks about how Hider died in previous game. 0
156: We have to accept Hider will die sooner or later. 0
159: Says he'd go for the list idea, would want one from everyone. 0
168: Makes impossible suggestion. Probably a mistake. 0
182: Has a townread on me. 0
184: Small scumread on Jimmm for flavor claim suggestion and RVS voting new player (me). +1
186: Can think of sensible flavorclaim scenarios on later days but none that make sense for now. 0
191: Wonders if Jimmm's flavorclaim suggestion was trying to bait people. Explains townread on me based on planning of power role. +1
192: Says raerae is acting like established meta. 0
193: Fixes math mistake. I'm putting this here because he's obsessing over what is best for town. +1
199: semi-V/LA for weekend. (once per day) 0
242: Thinks scum wouldn't aggressively want to maximize town PR. 0
246: Points out error in earlier post, worried about scum tunneling him on it later. 0
247: "who said we couldn't scumhunt? Nobody but the people who didn't like the theory talk. And it's already been raised that theory talk can be a way to catch scum in that it allows them empty posts. I, for one, have gotten a fair amount out of these discussions." VOTE: JIMMMM
Jimmmm -5, +7
112: Name claim suggestion based on names being hard to read (legit). Says he's glad not to be scum on first game back. -5
133: RVS votes Umbrage. 0
142: Joking reply to my "defense" to his RVS vote. I think he's a funny guy. 0
268: Explains vote was RVS + fishing for reactions. Wants to come up with a better (although more complex) Hider algorithm. +1
272: Plan to have his own plan, and have some minority quote it if they agree. This is a good thought, innovative and probably good for town, but might also be a way to get a subset of people to confirm that they may or may not be hider. Still pro-town innovation. +1.
281: Proposes modular arithmetic Hider plan, which is a helpful improvement, although possibly too complicated for some. +5.
Nkirbit -10, +6
147: Points out pros and cons of Hider plans. 0
148: Asks for clarification on Robz's previous game example. 0
155: Disagrees with multi-list plan, loses too much utility, we have to accept that Hider dies sooner or later. +1
172: Thinks my idea would work. 0
179: Points out that we need to avoid flavorclaiming. 0
204: Doesn't think there are bad targets for Hiders. 0
207: Doesn't like overcomplicated plans, because confused screw-ups make the information less trustworthy. +5
240: Didn't consider that scum know own flavornames. Wants to back down from plan now because of serious resistance. (2 posts from Ashersky, 1 from Shraeye, of which the only real point made other than "plans don't work ever" is the flavorname thing, which I find pretty weak.) Weird too back down completely so fast. " It's something that has to be unanimous, and it's not. I think it was a good idea to bring up, but I don't think continuing to pursue it at this point is helpful." -10
249: Expresses mathematical doubt about people scum know not to target. 0
277: Explains why wants to move past theory talk. Says that these are likely Ash and Shraeye's reasons and we should move on. 0
Chairs 0, 0 (Hmmm, is giving no read on anything itself scummy? I'm not sure yet.)
117: Understands first Hider plan. 0
120: Says he thinks we should opt for Tracker over Vig. 0
176: Likes plan. 0
180: Agrees that flavorclaims have no benefit. 0
197: VOTES ROBZ for acting towny. 0
220: Likes plans that avoids lurker issues helping scum narrow Hider list down.
286: Thinks Hider talk is dead but likes Jimmm's idea, FoS: ASHERSKY. 0
291: Responds to being asked to post more by saying doesn't have much to say since mostly likes theory talk. 0
Mcmcsalot -0, +6
218: Likes Hider plan. Vig is bad for town. False positives are bad. Talks about how Detective and Psychologist abilities interact with mafia, what WIFOM interactions may take place. Assumes Mafia are smart and works through their best options. This gives us all a bit to think about, and it's surely something Mafia has thought about, nice that he put it out there. +5
283: VOTE: ASHERSKY for not going along with plans despite liking plans. +1
Ashersky -23, +1
225: Won't be around much this weekend. Opposed to talking about Hiders or plans in any way. Refuses to participate. VOTE: TA for rolefishing with starting out with theory. Says we need RVS for scumhunting. -5
235: Says Robz was being misleading about MXII earlier. Opposed to plans because in that game having a plan (that we already threw out for this reason) got Eevee killed. Has Townread on Robz. "Hider plans do NOTHING but help SCUM KILL THE HIDER." Points out that scum know their own flavornames, which I thought we'd already discussed. This is where I started thinking Ash hadn't read my plan, but I think it's more discounting it for reasons that are untrue. I originally took it as confusion, now it is apparent this is either some weird dogma or assuming my plan is worse than it is for unexplained reasons. -5
245: "I think most of you concerned about the Hider have the wrong idea about the role anyway. It isn't to catch scum, it is to keep an extra towny alive longer. Like a weakened commuter." This seems like a really weird assertion to make for everyone, and like a really good excuse to not actually engage with any of this.-1
254: Doesn't like that conversation helps scum narrow down Hider target. Says knowing who Hider hides behind is not very useful. Asserts that "Hider is not for catching scum," twice. Not in a talking theory way, but in a This Is Fact way. As if to influence the Hider into being less useful. -5
257: " I'm done trying. I'll post again when there's scum hunting to be done." Refusing to even engage me, just dodging the issue. -1
262: Soft-accuses me of being scum for pressing the issue about the unreasoned (and to me, unreasonable) philosophy of Hider's he is asserting here. -1
271: Seems legitimately mystified that I didn't get the vague hints about hunting for power roles earlier. +1
275: Volunteers to self-lynch in exchange for no more theory talk. 0
284: VOTE: ASHERSKY. Self-vote.
298: "I think that given how much I love both claiming AND plans, the fact that I am against this should be a clear sign just how bad it is." Still providing 0 reasoning but insisting that all Hider plans are terrible despite it seeming like there is evidence to the contrary. Why keep repeating this without actually discussing it if not to seem like there are many voices opposed rather than a very loud one? -5
2961
Mafia Game Threads / Re: MXXVII: CLUE Mafia Day1
« on: July 13, 2013, 09:15:18 pm »
Okay, so I'm feeling much better today. Sorry for taking things personally yesterday. Anyway, I've got a great wall o' text that I made going through and rereading everything, but I don't want to post many times, so it's all one big thing. Since most of you will probably tl;dr it, here are my feelings on the scumminess of people at this moment. Obviously none of this is all that strong yet. I just read through each post and decided whether I got a neutral feel, a scummy feel, or a towny feel off it. I tried not to double-count people for the same thing much. I've tried not to let this be "people that disagree with me are scum" but as I think talking about Hider is pro-town, some of it may appear that way. Be assured I sat down and reread all this while calm, not while still angry.
That doesn't make me right of course, but it means these are non-emotional attempts at trying to feel out people's alignments, rather than just being mad at Ash. Yes, Ash is still my top scumread, but I'm definitely less certain of it today. Just more certain than anyone else.
-points for scumminess / + points for towniness
Ashersky -23 / +1
Shraeye -10 / +0
Nkirbit -10 / +6
Robz -8 / +2
Raerae -6 / +3
Jimmmm -5 / +7
Twistedarcher -1 /+4
Voltaire -1 / +4
Chairs 0 / 0
Eevee -0 / +1
Mcmcsalot -0 / +6
Liopoil -0 / +10
Please don your hardhats, a wall of explanatory text (and summary of the first 200 posts for people who think it's not worth rereading) will be falling shortly. I think this theory discussion has been good for feeling people out, although I suppose the results at the end of the game may or may not bear that out.
That doesn't make me right of course, but it means these are non-emotional attempts at trying to feel out people's alignments, rather than just being mad at Ash. Yes, Ash is still my top scumread, but I'm definitely less certain of it today. Just more certain than anyone else.
-points for scumminess / + points for towniness
Ashersky -23 / +1
Shraeye -10 / +0
Nkirbit -10 / +6
Robz -8 / +2
Raerae -6 / +3
Jimmmm -5 / +7
Twistedarcher -1 /+4
Voltaire -1 / +4
Chairs 0 / 0
Eevee -0 / +1
Mcmcsalot -0 / +6
Liopoil -0 / +10
Please don your hardhats, a wall of explanatory text (and summary of the first 200 posts for people who think it's not worth rereading) will be falling shortly. I think this theory discussion has been good for feeling people out, although I suppose the results at the end of the game may or may not bear that out.
2962
Mafia Game Threads / Re: MXXVII: CLUE Mafia Day1
« on: July 13, 2013, 12:01:40 am »
Okay, so I think I'm going to go to bed and sleep on this, but I really would like some advice from experienced players who are not named Ashersky, Raerae, or Shraeye:
I still think Ashersky is scummy, but I feel like I'm not allowed to talk about it because
1) Shraeye and Ashersky think that is prolonging theory discussion, while that kind of ties into what this is about, if I wanted to use theory discussion for trying to transition into talking about scum.
1b) Because I guess theory discussion is scummy somehow? This makes no sense to me, I think it's stupid, but arguing about it seems like I'm just going to either make everyone hate me or get mislynched in every game I play. I like talking about theory, I want to do it in every game I play and I think it is helpful. It's why I like Dominion, honestly, lots of theory to discuss.
2) Ashersky doesn't want to talk to me about why I find him scummy and pressing the issue would make his actions more predictable if he were Hider. I get that (see, explanations are HELPFUL!); but it seems like that means I can't talk about it or ever expect to get any question answered even if I think that's relevant. I feel like my hands are tied here, which on one hand makes me suspect him more because hey, that's a convenient way to frame your defense as scum, but on the other hand apparently I just don't understand the unwritten rules or whatever, so maybe I'm over-reacting to nothing. I don't know what to think.
3) I feel like things I've said just tend to get ignored, but I can't call people out on this.
4) I am kind of worried about people not liking me for posting too much, or for focusing on something too hard. But I think this is important. I feel like dropping the issue is anti-town and I should pursue it, but I don't know how.
5) I'm not thinking clearly at this point. I'm a bit on tilt because of shraeye and Ashersky both having the ability to completely ignore me and change the subject and make me look bad for it and I guess I post too much. I don't know, I'm a bit upset, maybe I'm just having a bad day, but I feel like those two think they're in charge of everything and aren't terribly nice about it. The point is, I was having fun this afternoon, I'm not having fun now. I'm going to bed.
I still think Ashersky is scummy, but I feel like I'm not allowed to talk about it because
1) Shraeye and Ashersky think that is prolonging theory discussion, while that kind of ties into what this is about, if I wanted to use theory discussion for trying to transition into talking about scum.
1b) Because I guess theory discussion is scummy somehow? This makes no sense to me, I think it's stupid, but arguing about it seems like I'm just going to either make everyone hate me or get mislynched in every game I play. I like talking about theory, I want to do it in every game I play and I think it is helpful. It's why I like Dominion, honestly, lots of theory to discuss.
2) Ashersky doesn't want to talk to me about why I find him scummy and pressing the issue would make his actions more predictable if he were Hider. I get that (see, explanations are HELPFUL!); but it seems like that means I can't talk about it or ever expect to get any question answered even if I think that's relevant. I feel like my hands are tied here, which on one hand makes me suspect him more because hey, that's a convenient way to frame your defense as scum, but on the other hand apparently I just don't understand the unwritten rules or whatever, so maybe I'm over-reacting to nothing. I don't know what to think.
3) I feel like things I've said just tend to get ignored, but I can't call people out on this.
4) I am kind of worried about people not liking me for posting too much, or for focusing on something too hard. But I think this is important. I feel like dropping the issue is anti-town and I should pursue it, but I don't know how.
5) I'm not thinking clearly at this point. I'm a bit on tilt because of shraeye and Ashersky both having the ability to completely ignore me and change the subject and make me look bad for it and I guess I post too much. I don't know, I'm a bit upset, maybe I'm just having a bad day, but I feel like those two think they're in charge of everything and aren't terribly nice about it. The point is, I was having fun this afternoon, I'm not having fun now. I'm going to bed.
2963
Mafia Game Threads / Re: MXXVII: CLUE Mafia Day1
« on: July 12, 2013, 11:27:17 pm »Umbrage, Volt was warning you to be careful because the route you've chosen to take against me could blow up in town's face if I am the Hider. Do you not see that?
No, I really did not see that. Thank you for actually just saying it, all the waltzing around the issue was really really frustrating.
I guess I can see it now. Not sure what to say or do about that, but I can see where you are coming from. But that is not as obvious as you seemed to think it was.
2964
Mafia Game Threads / Re: MXXVII: CLUE Mafia Day1
« on: July 12, 2013, 11:22:30 pm »For the Hider thing, we need to develop a function that takes username and flavour name and returns some sort of number which determines who you hide behind. That way there will be too many possibilities for scum to get too much useful information.
I agree, for what that's worth.
2965
Mafia Game Threads / Re: MXXVII: CLUE Mafia Day1
« on: July 12, 2013, 11:21:05 pm »
Okay, back, and I'll be back for another hour at least.
Wow, it is amazing how frustrating this game can be, and how emotional it can make you.
Let me enumerate the ways:
1. I still have no fucking clue what "He's new, or scum. Those are two explanations for his behavior." and "carefulllll" are referring too. This is very frustrating because I am, in fact, new and because if apparently anyone else in the game can understand what these two posts mean, what I am being warned and/or accused about, how is it helping scum to explain it to me. I legitimately have NO CLUE what this means. One would assume that at least some of the scum players would be able to figure out what you are talking about unless you assume they are also all on their first game. I don't know, but it seems crazy to me that refusing to clarify whatever this means is somehow bad for town, because wouldn't scum know what it means? It's confusing to me, but you all seem to know what it means, so how can it be secret?
This is just extremely frustrating and obviously serves no useful purpose other than being cryptic and frustrating to the one new player.
2. I thought and still think I'm onto something with Ash, based on his responses. I was trying to couch it in logic, but apparently that makes people think I'm trying to argue the point. I AM NOT TRYING TO ARGUE THE POINT. I am trying to understand his logic because it seems scummy to me, particularly the way he's responded.
3. Sorry I post too much, I'll try to remedy that.
Something about the non-personalness of doing this on a forum seems to make it much more frustrating, at least for me. I'm sorry I've wasted so much of your precious time, I was really trying to be helpful. Obviously I suck at that.
Wow, it is amazing how frustrating this game can be, and how emotional it can make you.
Let me enumerate the ways:
1. I still have no fucking clue what "He's new, or scum. Those are two explanations for his behavior." and "carefulllll" are referring too. This is very frustrating because I am, in fact, new and because if apparently anyone else in the game can understand what these two posts mean, what I am being warned and/or accused about, how is it helping scum to explain it to me. I legitimately have NO CLUE what this means. One would assume that at least some of the scum players would be able to figure out what you are talking about unless you assume they are also all on their first game. I don't know, but it seems crazy to me that refusing to clarify whatever this means is somehow bad for town, because wouldn't scum know what it means? It's confusing to me, but you all seem to know what it means, so how can it be secret?
This is just extremely frustrating and obviously serves no useful purpose other than being cryptic and frustrating to the one new player.
2. I thought and still think I'm onto something with Ash, based on his responses. I was trying to couch it in logic, but apparently that makes people think I'm trying to argue the point. I AM NOT TRYING TO ARGUE THE POINT. I am trying to understand his logic because it seems scummy to me, particularly the way he's responded.
3. Sorry I post too much, I'll try to remedy that.
Something about the non-personalness of doing this on a forum seems to make it much more frustrating, at least for me. I'm sorry I've wasted so much of your precious time, I was really trying to be helpful. Obviously I suck at that.
2966
Mafia Game Threads / Re: MXXVII: CLUE Mafia Day1
« on: July 12, 2013, 09:04:30 pm »
Okay, I'm going to take a break, step away from the computer and take several deep breaths. But I think I asked several logical questions and I don't understand why Ash won't engage with me, but will dismiss everything I'm saying out of hand. This isn't me being angry though (although I am getting a bit tetchy, I'll admit, hence the break) but I really do think I made a good argument, and Ash's response to that argument really does give me a scum read.
2967
Mafia Game Threads / Re: MXXVII: CLUE Mafia Day1
« on: July 12, 2013, 09:00:28 pm »Why have you decided that this is the role of the Hider? You've said it, very authoritatively, twice, but you haven't provided any reason for it whatsoever.Caaaaaaaaaaaareful.
I'm confused? I guess I won't ask for clarification because as a group we think being obscure but pointing things out is somehow beneficial because all 3 scum are too stupid to figure things out but I really am a stupid newb here, and I don't understand why an illogical position that seems poorly reasoned that I perceive to be anti-town is a poor basis for a scum accusation. My vote rests on Ash for a reason.
2968
Mafia Game Threads / Re: MXXVII: CLUE Mafia Day1
« on: July 12, 2013, 08:57:21 pm »I'll let others weigh in on Hiders. I'm done trying.
I'll post again when there's scum hunting to be done.
You're avoiding addressing my point, why?
I'm not really trying to argue the theory of Hiders here, I'm trying to understand why you have very strong, very authoritative opinions that seem illogical and sub-optimal for town but won't actually explain them.
I am scumhunting!
2969
Mafia Game Threads / Re: MXXVII: CLUE Mafia Day1
« on: July 12, 2013, 08:49:02 pm »You seem intent on the "why" of my disagreement. The why helps scum, but here you go:How did that help scum, exactly? Like I said, I think it's enormously misguided to think that scum are idiots. Particularly when there are THREE of them, and one would assume the smartest of them would help point things out to the rest.
While town scum hunts during the days, mafia PR hunts. Every bit of this discussion helps them narrow down who the Hider might be. Generally, that just tells them one less person to target for a kill. But your public plan gives them a better chance of getting two deaths for one kill.
I don't think a Vigilante is likely. I really don't. You're assuming not only do we have one, but that they kill EVERY NIGHT. Yes, in that case Hider is even more likely to die. So why would we want it to be a useless death? Does letting Mafia take out (AT MOST) 3 of those (because it is possible for one Mafia member to have the number of another one, and they certainly will sooner or later) posibilities really increase it that much? It increases the odds of the Night Kill hitting the Hider by a bit, but that's only 1/4 of the ways the hider dies in the night! I don't think it increases the odds as much as you think it does.
Quote
Hider is not Cop. There is, in fact, a Cop possible in this set-up.This is a terrible argument! "I have a dollar, why would I need another dollar?"
...
Hider is not for catching scum. It is for possibly having no NK one night.
Why have you decided that this is the role of the Hider? You've said it, very authoritatively, twice, but you haven't provided any reason for it whatsoever.
2970
Mafia Game Threads / Re: MXXVII: CLUE Mafia Day1
« on: July 12, 2013, 08:30:38 pm »Snow: Scum know 6/13 (4/12 or 6/12, really, since there will have been a lynch.. 4 if correct 6 if incorrect) not to target: Themselves, the the three people below them on the name list. That's pretty high.
But the odds of the Hider hiding behind a mafia member are 3/12 as well! Just because Mafia don't have to worry about night killing each other, doesn't increase the odds that they'll get a double-kill from the Hider rather than an auto-lynching of one of their own! This is my point.
2971
Mafia Game Threads / Re: MXXVII: CLUE Mafia Day1
« on: July 12, 2013, 08:28:49 pm »I think most of you concerned about the Hider have the wrong idea about the role anyway. It isn't to catch scum, it is to keep an extra towny alive longer. Like a weakened commuter.
Okay, yes, this is exactly the core of our disagreement! Why is having 1 townie survive longer more beneficial than having a cop though? It seems to me like having some confirmed town and having 1 confirmed scum is far stronger than having 1 night of no kill at the expense of sooner-or-later getting a night of a double-kill. (Which evens out, and we are quite likely to never even get that no-kill night!)
2972
Mafia Game Threads / Re: MXXVII: CLUE Mafia Day1
« on: July 12, 2013, 08:24:40 pm »Looking back, it's most just ashersky who reads like they haven't read it or don't even want to think about helping town play well.
Vote: Ashersky
Ash clearly read it. He raised an objection to the flavorname plan that's legitimate.
Hmmm. I might very well be carrying that impression over from the "you do realize they don't have to choose until night 1" thing about the Hider/Vigilante and the general attitude. Also, I realized I'm getting a bit annoyed here and I probably shouldn't. I just feel like the two people "resisting" are dismissing this plan out of hand, not actually talking about it under the guise of "I don't do theory talk". And given that I think it is a good idea, that seems like a very easy way for scum to derail a good idea.
Raerae managed to not talk about theory and also not come across that way, and shraeye just mainly seems grumpy. I want to know why Ash won't give me a yes/no, why this isn't even worth discussing (but discussing discussing it is) and why, if no, it's so bad.
From the beginning, I thought we were acknowledging that Scum do know 3 people not to target. But 3/13 is not that bad! And yeah, they don't have to consider whether or not to kill themselves, but if the hider hides behind scum, they are instalynched! BUT IF AND ONLY IF WE KNOW WHO THEY WERE HIDING BEHIND.
This seems very important to me, and I don't understand why it is good town play to dismiss it out of hand without reasoning it through. Why is having the hider die without giving us information somehow better other than Ash doesn't want to discuss it?!
2973
Mafia Game Threads / Re: MXXVII: CLUE Mafia Day1
« on: July 12, 2013, 08:14:31 pm »
1. Robz — AGREED (I think?)
2. raerae — AGREED (I think?)
3. liopoil — AGREED (given insufficient people decide to go with his idea)
4. twistedarcher — AGREED
5. shraeye — NO?
6. Eevee — I don't think he's posted since plan proposed
7. Voltaire — AGREED
8. UmbrageOfSnow — AGREED
9. Jimmmm — hasn't posted since plan proposed
10. nkirbit — AGREED
11. chairs — AGREED
12. mcmcsalot — AGREED
13. ashersky — NO?
2. raerae — AGREED (I think?)
3. liopoil — AGREED (given insufficient people decide to go with his idea)
4. twistedarcher — AGREED
5. shraeye — NO?
6. Eevee — I don't think he's posted since plan proposed
7. Voltaire — AGREED
8. UmbrageOfSnow — AGREED
9. Jimmmm — hasn't posted since plan proposed
10. nkirbit — AGREED
11. chairs — AGREED
12. mcmcsalot — AGREED
13. ashersky — NO?
2974
Mafia Game Threads / Re: MXXVII: CLUE Mafia Day1
« on: July 12, 2013, 08:10:52 pm »
Looking back, it's most just ashersky who reads like they haven't read it or don't even want to think about helping town play well.
Vote: Ashersky
Vote: Ashersky
2975
Mafia Game Threads / Re: MXXVII: CLUE Mafia Day1
« on: July 12, 2013, 08:09:49 pm »
I guess by "most people" I only mean shraeye and ashersky. Sorry guys.