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Messages - Donald X.

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5526
Rules Questions / Re: Watchtower and the lose track rule
« on: October 22, 2012, 02:07:35 pm »
To the great annoyance to those of us with a little OCD, Catacombs, Cultist, Feodum, Fortress, Squire and Overgrown Estate read "When you trash this", while Hunting Grounds, Rats and Sir Vander read "When this is trashed". It'd be nice if Guilds gave a reason for this seemingly unnecessary difference in wording.
?

http://dominion.diehrstraits.com/?set=Dark%20Ages

5527
Goko Dominion Online / Re: getting those 3 stars
« on: October 22, 2012, 04:49:45 am »
I don't think either turns or points is a good way to do stars because the value and achievement on both is entirely board dependent, and creating a formula that takes into account all the cards and combos of cards to determine what constitutes a 2* or 3* performance would be nearly impossible.
Well the formula gives you an estimate, and then after a bunch of people have played it, you can tweak it based on how much they actually scored (I guess without changing scores for people who played already, since people wouldn't like losing stars this way). Currently I don't think they factor anything in, although I'm not sure.

Therefore what I would suggest would be a bespoke system of achievement for each individual level.  On some levels it would be turn based, on others it would be points based, on others it could be winning while buying a certain number of a certain card.  You could even have really quirky stuff for getting 3 stars on some levels like "win without buying a silver" on a predominantly BM board.  While it will be a slight PITA going through all the levels and finding a suitable challenge, it would make the adventure mode a lot more fun and a lot more replayable as a result.
I was initially fond of my suggestion that two stars be "didn't buy silver/gold" and three be not buying some particular other card. Then I realized that I personally would just never buy the indicated card - why beat this level twice when I can beat it once? It wouldn't be creating a new challenge so much as it would be only playing with nine cards. And of course you'd have to indicate the card, not doing so would suck.

Making unique challenges for 3 stars on each level, okay I am not putting in the hours making that content, I have done my time here, and each level already is a unique challenge, a set of 10 kingdom cards and a set of starting hands and sometimes some other tweak, once that stuff is programmed. And at the same time, there are achievements, they are not in the game but they will show up someday, there are a ton of them, one for every kingdom card in fact, giving you some special challenge, and those challenges don't need to be specifically accomplished in campaign games, even better.

Possibly stars could be something that necessarily meant beating the level twice? Beat it again without buying any of the cards you bought last time. That seems too hard to track - obv. you don't want to be locked in by your first victory, so it would be like, track every set of cards I used to beat this level, and well not happening. I wouldn't want to just have a flag per card and make it, 3 stars if you've bought every card on this level over any number of victories, because then I just try to build a fairgrounds deck every time, I am winning okay quick buy up stuff.

It's harder to win if there are more players. It could be, if you want to go for 2 stars / 3 stars, we add a player / 2 players. Then either I go for that game one again every time and am now just waiting extra for bots to play (honestly not so much on very fast, but if they are all playing attacks or Bishops or whatever it adds up, and not everyone wants to play on very fast), or the game makes me beat it multiple times - win once for one star, now you can choose add a player and go for two, and well, I am not feeling it.

Anyway maybe there is some good idea out there; as it stands I don't see something better than score. At first I thought, mix score and turns, but really that is just saying "okay if you 3-pile it with one extra Estate you deserve the stars," and man, what was that about replayability and more challenges? If you beat it that way and want the stars, beat it the lots of Provinces way. The low score victory is still there for you if you just want to get to the next level. It's simpler just having the one system. I could see saying "some levels it's score, some it's turns" in order to deal with stuff like Goons, but mixing them is more complex, and people need to know what the threshold is.

Which is another thing, the screen should say what the threshold is.

5528
Rules Questions / Re: Knights vs. Rats
« on: October 20, 2012, 11:55:31 pm »
When you trash Rats, X is still in limbo, being looked at, and isn't in your deck. So, you draw the next card in your deck, and then discard X.
This is correct.

5529
Other Games / Re: Theme in deck building games
« on: October 20, 2012, 12:53:49 am »
This seems like a really good opportunity to link a blog post that may or may not have been written by a regular poster in these forums.

http://theanalyticalcouchpotato.org/wp/return-to-ravnica-and-the-marriage-of-mechanics-and-flavor/
For a few of my games flavor comes first. I started with flavor and then worked out the rest of it. For most of my games flavor comes second - mechanics, flavor, data. The mechanic is the good idea that the rest of the game is hung on; I pick flavor to fit the mechanics, then pick data to fit the flavor. For Dominion, flavor comes third - data, mechanics, flavor.

5530
Rules Questions / Re: Did I play Procession + Lighthouse per the rules?
« on: October 18, 2012, 05:57:26 pm »
I just wish it mentioned Lighthouse specifically, since Lighthouse has that "while this card is in play" clause.
Lighthouse will not be in play and so you won't get that benefit.

5531
Goko Dominion Online / Re: getting those 3 stars
« on: October 18, 2012, 05:53:24 pm »
Is this directed at Ozle - or all of us (plural you)?  Ozle's far from someone who needs to be called names on the forum.
Annie says it to Alvy. We were quoting movies or something; hey there you are quoting a quote about people not getting that. Ozle is like the best poster.

5532
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Funniest conversation about Dominion
« on: October 18, 2012, 05:09:12 am »
I always felt that this system should be applied to those Judges who ruled that Poker is a game of Luck rather than skill.

Pit said judge against a table full of pro's and play lots of games, see how that luck pans out for them
There is no dichotomy there. Poker is high luck high skill (and so is Dominion).

5533
Goko Dominion Online / Re: getting those 3 stars
« on: October 18, 2012, 05:04:55 am »
Sometimes I forget how anal everyone here is (including me! haha), its a joke that enabled me to quote scarface, that was all that needed to be taken away from that post!
"Anal" is a polite word for what you are.

5534
Goko Dominion Online / Re: getting those 3 stars
« on: October 18, 2012, 05:03:39 am »
But you don't get, say, more of those VP thingies (to buy promos) after a campaign's final if you've gained more stars beforehand, do you?
These aren't the stars you're looking for. Stars? You don't need no stinking stars. The stars! They do nothing!

If I make the quotes more accurate they just aren't recognizable, I don't know what to tell you.

Anyway yeah. Just stop thinking the stars are possibly meaningful in any way whatsoever, right now. Unless, you know, you like stars. And who doesn't?

5535
Goko Dominion Online / Re: getting those 3 stars
« on: October 18, 2012, 04:20:55 am »
What's the point of those stars anyway? Do you have an actual benefit from them, is it just for fame and glory (i.e. affects some ranking), or is it merely for your personal wellbeing (i.e. affects nothing, but makes you feel like a superstar because you've gained the maximum stars possible)?
Fame and glory I think.

5536
Goko Dominion Online / Re: Can't beat Lady Marigold - Act 1, Game 14
« on: October 18, 2012, 03:17:31 am »
Just started playing Adventure Mode to check it out before my beta access goes away.  It was fun for awhile, but now that I'm getting into "triple silver+double duchy versus triple curse" territory, I want to punch a baby.  This isn't dominion, this is nonsense.  The board cards are totally irrelevant; the AI can click buttons at random and win.  And it's making me lose all the appreciation for base-set-only-play that I had acquired from reading the wonderful Gerimoo article.
Again this is all being fixed, but I don't know when.

5537
Donald, do you get a cut from the Online sales? I hope so all this effort you are putting in!
Thanks, I'm there for you guys. I do get a cut. Early on I would remind myself of this when I was putting in hours making lists of 10 cards. Eventually I realized, yes but if this were a job offer I would turn it down. It's just, here's this stuff that could be better, hey I could do this work myself. There is still a bunch to do.

5538
Oh, well in that case awesome. Does it always give you a 5/2, or did I just get lucky?
You just got lucky. They've talked about providing the option to rig starting hands for campaign levels, but haven't done it and I don't think it's worth doing.

5539
Rules Questions / Re: Possession + Fortress
« on: October 16, 2012, 06:31:31 pm »
Maybe isotropic is a bit off in its implementation then?
Yes. There should be no chance to reveal Watchtower prior to actually gaining Nomad Camp; it will already be on your deck when you reveal Watchtower.

5540
The 5th part of the Dark Ages adventure mode.

I think having 3 hovels instead of the standard array of shelters is supposed to be a handicap (no free village). But, on a 5/2, having 3 Hovels is awesome! You can trash them all by buying one Estate. It seems like maybe someone didn't quite think that one through.
It's supposed to be a cute thing that was easy to do; it's not intended as a handicap.

5541
Goko Dominion Online / Re: getting those 3 stars
« on: October 16, 2012, 06:21:12 pm »
I agree with GendoIkari that going for stars changes your strategy regardless of what the formula is, with GendoIkari that they are unlikely to take out the stars, and with ftl that how long the game lasts depends on your opponent.

The point of campaign levels is in fact to be puzzles based on Dominion. They vary starting decks and sometimes other things. An argument here is, that you can endlessly play Dominion vs. bots if you want. So it's not unreasonable to want the campaigns to be different from that.

The puzzle of "winning the level" is more compelling than the puzzle of "get 3 stars." You can ignore the stars puzzle if you want though.

It's true that the stars thing could be something much different from score/turns. It could be, for example, one star for winning, two stars for winning without buying any silver/gold, three for not buying a particular kingdom card. Whatever it is, it wants to be basically the same thing on every level, both so people can just learn what it is, and so I don't need to spend hours picking out star formulas.

5542
Rules Questions / Re: Possession + Fortress
« on: October 15, 2012, 11:29:08 pm »
With Nomad Camp, doesn't it move itself as an on-gain effect? Since it reads: "When you gain this, put it on top of your deck." I thought that was the point you were making in your previous post. :)
No, it never visits the discard pile, it goes straight to the top of your deck.

5543
Rules Questions / Re: Possession + Fortress
« on: October 15, 2012, 10:24:07 pm »
Interesting, and isotropic implements it like this. If you buy a Nomad Camp with a Watchtower in hand, it asks which effect to resolve. If you choose to put the Nomad Camp on your deck, you no longer have the option to reveal Watchtower (although you maybe should be allowed to reveal it, I assume it would do nothing since it has lost track of the Nomad Camp, right?).
Actually Watchtower can find cards that were gained directly to other locations, just not ones that were gained to a certain location and then moved.

5544
Goko Dominion Online / Re: getting those 3 stars
« on: October 15, 2012, 05:15:58 pm »
But - I don't expect this to be used - because it discourages zapping.
I don't imagine they will make the system flat-out discourage zap use, although I wouldn't rule it out, they might if it sounded good enough. But I think they have come around to my argument that they are not going to make money from zaps and should stop trying in favor of making the campaigns fun; the dominion coins product will be campaigns themselves rather than zaps.

At the moment it seems like they will use my campaign levels, where zaps can be a crutch but shouldn't be needed (except the free zaps, you need those in acts 2-3), except for level 20s, which they changed to require more zaps, I guess thinking, wait this is where you get a pile of VP tokens. And from my perspective that makes no money but makes level 20 bad, because I mean, okay, I can buy some zaps with dominion coins which were free, to joylessly beat the level 20's. But uh that's how it looks. Nineteen playable levels per campaign, well it's a big improvement.

Again I don't know when this stuff will go up, because one thing was, they plan on adding more things you can muck with in campaign levels, based on my suggestions, and so I used a little of that stuff in my levels, and so they won't go up until that stuff is programmed.

Anyway uh it's possible they are still clinging to the idea that someone will buy up zaps to get three stars. I haven't discussed the stars thing with them. Number of turns sounds like a reasonable measure if what you want is something very simple, which possibly you do, but it just has different bad cases than score. You cite the case where I end the game on piles and win before we've gotten into the Provinces, but what about say a Duke strategy? I lock up the game by getting eight Duchies before the bot is anywhere near to cleaning out the Provinces, but I don't get three stars because this strategy is too slow.

And the game is about scoring more when it's over - it's not about ending the game quickly. It's more natural to use score than turns then, right? And for some games score does tell me how well I did. OTOH, a lot of games will end with close scores, and the point to stars is to say how well you did vs. other instances of this game being played, and well can score do that?

I guess it could be, well your graph with score instead of zaps. Reward either having a high score or short game. And try to factor in Goons / Witch / etc. into the defaults.

5545
Rules Questions / Re: Possession + Fortress
« on: October 15, 2012, 04:42:24 pm »
This implies that the when someone tries to trash a Fortress, the Fortress visits the trash before being returned to hand. It also implies that a card that is trashed on a Possession turn visits the trash before being set aside.

This doesn't seem consistent with other rules (e.g. anything that modifies where a card is gained) that generally say that the card whose destination is changed does not visit the location it would otherwise have gone before going to its new destination. I would instead have expected the last line
This just comes down to what that text on Possession would say if it were longer. It's not longer because, too many words. Would it say "when one of their cards would be trashed, instead..." or would it say "when one of their cards is trashed, ..." And my answer has to fit the actual text and FAQ as well as possible.

As it happens the FAQ addresses this specific case. It says that the trashed cards were actually trashed, and gives Mining Village's "if you do" as an example.

Cards that gain a card directly somewhere don't have it visit somewhere else. They say something like what Mine does; they describe the gain, so that this interpretation is plausible. Nomad Camp is an exception; somehow I went with a simpler wording rather than tacking on "instead of into your discard pile." That "instead" would clear things up, although, this never comes up. Watchtower and Royal Seal, which modify where another gained card ends up, both actually move a card that was already put somewhere else.

5546
Goko Dominion Online / Re: getting those 3 stars
« on: October 15, 2012, 04:26:17 pm »
I recommend suggesting what the actual formula for stars should be. Who knows, they might change it.

5547
Goko Dominion Online / Re: Can't beat Lady Marigold - Act 1, Game 14
« on: October 15, 2012, 04:24:17 pm »
Any tips on what strategy I should try to beat her?
Wait until this level is both different and easier. I don't know how long that will take but it will happen. Which is to say, I made new levels for the base set campaigns and they will replace the existing ones at some point.

5548
Rules Questions / Re: Possession + Fortress
« on: October 15, 2012, 04:19:34 am »
Thanks. I considered the whole "you choose the order" thing, but thought that it didn't makes sense. Turns out I was wrong.
The real ruling was inside you all along.

5549
Rules Questions / Re: Possession + Fortress
« on: October 14, 2012, 11:33:08 pm »
What happens when you trash a Fortress on a Possession turn? Possession wants to set Fortress aside, but Fortress wants to be put into your hand. Which one takes priority?
When you need to do two things at the same time, you choose an order to do them in. If you are being possessed, then the possessing player makes decisions for you, so they decide.

So. I am possessing you. I make you Remodel a Fortress. You put Fortress into the trash. Now I decide whether to put it into your hand or set it aside. Whichever I pick, the other one fails as it can't find the Fortress where it expects it (in the trash).

I guess this might be important: in the text of Possession, what does "are trashed" mean?
It means "when one of that player's cards is trashed, blah blah blah." It's timed the same as the various Dark Ages cards.

When are the trashed cards set aside?
Directly after being trashed, provided nothing else happens first (such as a when-trashed trigger that the possessing player decides to resolve first).

5550
Rules Questions / Re: Procession + Island
« on: October 08, 2012, 08:35:48 pm »
I'm again just confirming behavior for the Goko Beta. When you play a procession on an island I'm assuming that the island is set aside on the mat and is therefore not trashed by the procession. This would come under the lose track rule. However there's nothing specific to say that the procession can't trash a card that is on the island mat.

Goko currently trashes the island.
Procession can't trash the card it played unless it's still in play.

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