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Mafia Game Threads / Re: Mafia XI: Find Yourself in the Courtyard Masquerade -- DAY 4
« on: October 31, 2012, 01:59:04 am »
O, what was the quotation that made you find YN scummy?
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: Mafia XI: Find Yourself in the Courtyard Masquerade -- DAY 4
« on: October 30, 2012, 11:24:18 pm »this is a good point. A town player with a 1-shot roleblock does not throw it out without doing minimal research. He says "I'll hold on to it, might need it later."
the problem is that O has played sorta sloppy in his last couple games as town. i can see him doing this, especially if he was compelled to use the action for role-related reasons we don't understand.
but i dislike how he says it was some quote (which he hasn't yet posted back for us) yn made that made yn seem scummy. it's like, if you read him closely enough to find a random quote - maybe you should have noticed all the other business?
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: Mafia XI: Find Yourself in the Courtyard Masquerade -- DAY 4
« on: October 30, 2012, 11:09:54 pm »
i rather like cayvie's story on O. from yesterday's position cayvie's role looks a heck of a lot like watcher. i sorta was leaning toward "Cayvie is mafia and just massively screwed up by voting for young nick, forgetting that she said she had to vote for her biggest town read" a la ehalc's cross-ex of her which at the time i found rather devastating. but "watcher" explains exactly why cayvie acted the way she acted.
cayvie, i am not asking you to claim. what i am saying is that it's very reasonable that, if cayvie is town, mafia computed that she was watcher, regardless of whether she is, and this actually explains the weird action catastrophe from today; this explanation is most consistent with YN being town and O being scum. of course i have to buy that cayvie is town to buy this; occam's razor may be that YN and cayvie are scum. i like my vote where it is for now (on nobody).
cayvie, i am not asking you to claim. what i am saying is that it's very reasonable that, if cayvie is town, mafia computed that she was watcher, regardless of whether she is, and this actually explains the weird action catastrophe from today; this explanation is most consistent with YN being town and O being scum. of course i have to buy that cayvie is town to buy this; occam's razor may be that YN and cayvie are scum. i like my vote where it is for now (on nobody).
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: Mafia XI: Find Yourself in the Courtyard Masquerade -- DAY 4
« on: October 30, 2012, 11:05:25 pm »
it does not make sense to use a pseudo-investigative role to investigate ehalc. it just doesn't. nobody has defended this. even young nick hasn't really defended it.
it also doesn't make sense for YN to tell us he investigated ehalc.
it does not make sense to roleblock young nick. it makes sense not to care about a game (i guess), but it doesn't make sense to use a night action without doing minimal work. yes, O played the last two games he was town in sloppy, but not this sloppy.
it does not make sense for O to tell us that he roleblocked young nick if O is scum.
either many people are playing a bafflingly unstrategic game, or there is a deceptive conspiracy.
it also doesn't make sense for YN to tell us he investigated ehalc.
it does not make sense to roleblock young nick. it makes sense not to care about a game (i guess), but it doesn't make sense to use a night action without doing minimal work. yes, O played the last two games he was town in sloppy, but not this sloppy.
it does not make sense for O to tell us that he roleblocked young nick if O is scum.
either many people are playing a bafflingly unstrategic game, or there is a deceptive conspiracy.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: Mafia XI: Find Yourself in the Courtyard Masquerade -- DAY 4
« on: October 30, 2012, 11:02:27 pm »Why are you fishing?
MXI: where the claims
never
make
ANY
sense
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: Mafia XI: Find Yourself in the Courtyard Masquerade -- DAY 4
« on: October 30, 2012, 10:59:21 pm »It's hard to imagine me having anything helpful to say when I wasn't even able to discern that YN was a claimed PR.
I didn't have many reads since I wasn't paying much attention, I latched onto some random thing YN said and basically just chose only slightly better than randomly.
Also when did Cayvie claim watcher?
what random thing YN said?
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: Mafia XI: Find Yourself in the Courtyard Masquerade -- DAY 4
« on: October 30, 2012, 10:55:26 pm »which, like, do you really buy that?
do you really buy that O used a one-shot roleblock without checking to see if that player had claimed? you know, THAT DAY?
it is a big pill to swallow, and you now have an answer to the question "but why did he tell us" that i don't hate.
unvote for now.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: Mafia XI: Find Yourself in the Courtyard Masquerade -- DAY 4
« on: October 29, 2012, 05:10:20 pm »
eh, i feel bad cause i got some unfair draws (unfair in my favor) against YN in dominion yesterday and his lonely drunkposts made me feel like he was town and made me feel guilty but there was just no reason to investigate ehalcyon, i agree that his actions dont make sense if he's scum either, but i think when this happens (you can't figure out what he's doing no matter what his alignment is) you gotta default that part of the confusion is that he is keeping something from you, vote: Young Nick
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: Mafia XI: Find Yourself in the Courtyard Masquerade -- DAY 3
« on: October 28, 2012, 02:03:56 pm »I would not be surprised if scum had non-intrigue cards or attacks. I bet that town has Intrigue non-attacks.
I also am curious about the cost of cards. It seems like it might matter, but I don't want to hastily make false connections.
If card names don't do alignment, well, then I figure I am a VT who thinks he's more powerful than he actually is. I can't see them mattering for anything else.
Who do you think had the card "Scout?"
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: Mafia XI: Find Yourself in the Courtyard Masquerade -- DAY 3
« on: October 28, 2012, 01:41:34 pm »
Young Nick:
1. Do you still believe the intrigue == town theory?
2. What do you think the point of the card names is?
1. Do you still believe the intrigue == town theory?
2. What do you think the point of the card names is?
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: Mafia XI: Find Yourself in the Courtyard Masquerade -- DAY 3
« on: October 28, 2012, 01:40:32 pm »conspiracy theory time....
did we ever fully decide whether or not eevee's cult faction was a thing or not?
Is it possible that the reason that Frisk didn't have an alignment when he died is because he had become part of the cult?
Is it possible that young nick has something to do with this potential cult?
Am I being too paranoid? Are there too many question marks in this post? Yes, yuma... Too many question marks.
I think there's a neighborhood, and I think I know who one of the neighbors is (I'm not asking for a claim!)
But on the other hand, it does explain Frisk's "no alignment" better than anything else. Also, eevee was semi-naive alignment cop. What do we think that means? Maybe it has something to do with the "no alignment" faction?
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: Mafia XI: Find Yourself in the Courtyard Masquerade -- DAY 3
« on: October 28, 2012, 12:10:37 pm »everyone's sleeeeeeeeeeeeeepingNo discussion about economy. I believe the fourth line is a question to Young Nick. That is a very strangely worded question.
or maybe it's just the weekend who knows
anyways, whats up? how do you feel about the current state of our nation's economy?
and on another note, what is your plan of action for convincing us that you're town?
I'm not sure how to convince you guys that I'm town. It sounds really obnoxious and antitown, but know that if I were mafia I would care more than I currently do. I'd have a few reads and hedge a lot more than I currently am. My night-action moves would be more calculated, generated to not draw attention to my scum-power. So knowing this, I would have done O, theorel, Morgrim, or maybe Cayvie if I were scum. But I'm not.
the sort of fundamental problem I'm having is this. Investigating a mostly-confirmed-town when you had a sea full of lurkers to choose from and when you are in grave danger of being lynched yourself is indefensible. It's so indefensible that it's inconceivable that town would do it. It's also so indefensible that it's obvious that it's indefensible, so it's a terrible choice to lie about if you're scum, plus if you're scum you knew ehalc would die.
So like, it's clear that, lying or not, you think the ehalc investigation was defensible, even though as far as I know this is a mystery to basically everyone else alive at this point. Is there anybody besides YN who will stand up for this decision? I would love to hear an unbiased argument.
(separately O roleblocked you and freely admitted to it, i am bracketing that aside for now because i don't even know how to deal with it, see my earlier post for long rant.)
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: Mafia XI: Find Yourself in the Courtyard Masquerade -- DAY 3
« on: October 28, 2012, 02:00:28 am »
unvote for a bit. Not rational I just kinda think he's town from the three lonely posts.
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Game Reports / apothecary, then alchemist
« on: October 27, 2012, 09:41:13 pm »
i started this one torn between apothecaries and alchemists and decided to go apothecary first and transition in. my shuffle luck was perfect and it wound up awesome. is this typical?
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201210/27/game-20121027-183516-27ddbcea.html
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201210/27/game-20121027-183516-27ddbcea.html
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: Mafia XI: Find Yourself in the Courtyard Masquerade -- DAY 3
« on: October 27, 2012, 01:03:52 pm »I was wondering if it is at all possible that in a game this large, instead of having the normal x-man (6-7?) scum team, it is closer to only 4 or 5, with no vanilla Mafia Goons. In this case, there could be multiple Mafia JoaT's and O could have used his role-block on me.
Just a crazy theory, but a possible one.
Why did O tell the world he used his roleblock on you?
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: Mafia XI: Find Yourself in the Courtyard Masquerade -- DAY 3
« on: October 27, 2012, 12:53:11 pm »No it's not, but it would suck to get hammered less than 24 hours into d3 especially since I am town.
I just don't know what to make of descriptions. I worry that they could be mis-informative (like Grujah's). And, as I said, I don't buy anyone being "obtown." That's just good Mafia play (see PPS in MVII).
Grujah's wasn't misinformative. It just wasn't informative - there's a difference. Both the other confirmed descriptions have been informative. DSell said something like "ehalc is almost surely town" based on ehalc's description.
And look, all of this also ignores the fact that you were/are in a lot of heat. If I had your role and it were genuinely a town-aligned role, and I had been put at L - 1, I would be sure to investigate someone who was very unlikely to wind up dead, because I would want that person to back my story up the next day. Even if you thought there was a chance ehalc was scum-aligned and doing a good job looking town (and bastard mod had given scum-ehalc a town-sounding description or ehalc and dsell were very daring scumbuddies), you still should have thought that in the other scenario (the one which actually is the case!) ehalc would be a very likely mafia target. It just doesn't add up.
And this isn't MVII - in MVII town shot themselves in the foot and you and pps played a perfect game. Here it's the opposite.
It's just too convenient that you happened to investigate someone that's dead. Only O's roleblock claim throws a monkey wrench into this, but I think ultimately it's a red herring.
Can we get a vote count? don't hammer till Sparky passes the wine.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: Mafia XI: Find Yourself in the Courtyard Masquerade -- DAY 3
« on: October 27, 2012, 12:40:23 pm »
i unvoted then revoted without any votes for you in between, so if that's the "hammer," you were already dead.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: Mafia XI: Find Yourself in the Courtyard Masquerade -- DAY 3
« on: October 27, 2012, 12:39:30 pm »Wait is that hammer?nowhere near, i don't think
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: Mafia XI: Find Yourself in the Courtyard Masquerade -- DAY 3
« on: October 27, 2012, 12:35:37 pm »
reread of O is mega-frustrating. there's just so little content. the claim that he missed YN's business is completely believable, though - he really didn't post any time around when it was happening.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: Mafia XI: Find Yourself in the Courtyard Masquerade -- DAY 3
« on: October 27, 2012, 12:18:22 pm »
Disorganized thoughts, sorry:
1. Investigating eHalc makes no sense from a town perspective. We already had town-ish investigative results on eHalc. YN says he wants to make sure we don't have erroneously confirmed townies; I don't buy it, that's a late-game concern, not an early game concern.
2. YN knew that he was roleblocked. If he's scum scum, this would have given him the perfect opportunity to lie about whom he investigated. So if he's scum it's funny that he said eHalc, given what a poor investigation target eHalc would be per 1.
3. There is the remote possibility that YN is lying about having card-reading ability, in which case DSell is a scumbuddy. This is probably not worth considering until later in the game, because if that were true, it seems like DSell would almost certainly have been like, "no way, my card doesn't start with a p" and bussed hard, rather than what he did.
4. as many have said, we now are pretty sure that the intrigue == town argument is bunk. we also have a few mild correlations between card-type and abilities. As Shraeye argued yesterday, this in turn makes yn's role much more likely to be scummy (rolecop vs cop).
5. It's hard to believe O didn't notice that YN had a claimed PR when he roleblocked him, although O has played town somewhat sloppy the last few games, and it's also hard to see why O would freely volunteer this information if O were mafia. I think scum O would not have participated in a scheme like this but more likely would have bussed YN.
6. On the other hand, O, why roleblock YN? Presumably you thought he was mafia and reasonably likely to perform the factional kill, the first of these assumptions being reasonable and the second not as much, although I guess if you hadn't been reading the many pages of discussion about his ability, it seems more likely. Ugh, town mistakes are frustrating, and normally I am for punishing town mistakes (on the theory that if we don't, scum are just going to "make mistakes" left and right) - but here, O has gone out of his way to deal with the consequences of the mistake; again scum O could just have kept his mouth shut.
7. DSell's argument, as I understand it, goes like this: if YN is scum, then YN knew ehalc was toast, so why did YN investigate eHalc? Right - this is important. One possibility is that YN could have investigated someone else, planning to lie and say he investigated eHalc (he knows this is a safe lie if ehalc dies); then when he was roleblocked, but he had already planned out his lie, he couldn't think of something better to say on the spot. Remember that YN can't lie about cards. If this were an ordinary game and he were fakeclaiming cop, he could just pick a townie and be like, oh, I investigated so-and-so, and he was town. But he can't do that here, the alleged investigative target is just going to be like, ok, so what's my card? But still - eHalc was a weird choice here to investigate if YN is town and a weird choice to lie about having investigated if YN is scum. Does not make sense either way.
8. The "bad luck" principle: YN happened to investigate the person who died. So either town got unlucky (which does happen, e.g. I wrote the letter to jo in MVI thinking he would live) or YN is lying.
Of the four logical combinations with O and YN, I lean toward town O and scum YN. Scum O and town YN is very unlikely (because O could have just kept his mouth shut about the roleblockage, YN would be doomed, and no one would be the wiser on who the roleblocker had been). Scum O and scum YN is possible but seems unnecessarily daring on O's part. Town O and town YN is possible, in my opinion the second most likely of these four possibilities.
vote: Young Nick
1. Investigating eHalc makes no sense from a town perspective. We already had town-ish investigative results on eHalc. YN says he wants to make sure we don't have erroneously confirmed townies; I don't buy it, that's a late-game concern, not an early game concern.
2. YN knew that he was roleblocked. If he's scum scum, this would have given him the perfect opportunity to lie about whom he investigated. So if he's scum it's funny that he said eHalc, given what a poor investigation target eHalc would be per 1.
3. There is the remote possibility that YN is lying about having card-reading ability, in which case DSell is a scumbuddy. This is probably not worth considering until later in the game, because if that were true, it seems like DSell would almost certainly have been like, "no way, my card doesn't start with a p" and bussed hard, rather than what he did.
4. as many have said, we now are pretty sure that the intrigue == town argument is bunk. we also have a few mild correlations between card-type and abilities. As Shraeye argued yesterday, this in turn makes yn's role much more likely to be scummy (rolecop vs cop).
5. It's hard to believe O didn't notice that YN had a claimed PR when he roleblocked him, although O has played town somewhat sloppy the last few games, and it's also hard to see why O would freely volunteer this information if O were mafia. I think scum O would not have participated in a scheme like this but more likely would have bussed YN.
6. On the other hand, O, why roleblock YN? Presumably you thought he was mafia and reasonably likely to perform the factional kill, the first of these assumptions being reasonable and the second not as much, although I guess if you hadn't been reading the many pages of discussion about his ability, it seems more likely. Ugh, town mistakes are frustrating, and normally I am for punishing town mistakes (on the theory that if we don't, scum are just going to "make mistakes" left and right) - but here, O has gone out of his way to deal with the consequences of the mistake; again scum O could just have kept his mouth shut.
7. DSell's argument, as I understand it, goes like this: if YN is scum, then YN knew ehalc was toast, so why did YN investigate eHalc? Right - this is important. One possibility is that YN could have investigated someone else, planning to lie and say he investigated eHalc (he knows this is a safe lie if ehalc dies); then when he was roleblocked, but he had already planned out his lie, he couldn't think of something better to say on the spot. Remember that YN can't lie about cards. If this were an ordinary game and he were fakeclaiming cop, he could just pick a townie and be like, oh, I investigated so-and-so, and he was town. But he can't do that here, the alleged investigative target is just going to be like, ok, so what's my card? But still - eHalc was a weird choice here to investigate if YN is town and a weird choice to lie about having investigated if YN is scum. Does not make sense either way.
8. The "bad luck" principle: YN happened to investigate the person who died. So either town got unlucky (which does happen, e.g. I wrote the letter to jo in MVI thinking he would live) or YN is lying.
Of the four logical combinations with O and YN, I lean toward town O and scum YN. Scum O and town YN is very unlikely (because O could have just kept his mouth shut about the roleblockage, YN would be doomed, and no one would be the wiser on who the roleblocker had been). Scum O and scum YN is possible but seems unnecessarily daring on O's part. Town O and town YN is possible, in my opinion the second most likely of these four possibilities.
vote: Young Nick
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: Mafia XI: Find Yourself in the Courtyard Masquerade -- DAY 3
« on: October 27, 2012, 11:51:47 am »
what a mess. i am going to break it down into cases based on who is lying. not sure what to do. for now, contra morgrim, i do not support any more claimage out of O.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: Mafia XI: Find Yourself in the Courtyard Masquerade -- DAY 3
« on: October 27, 2012, 09:54:37 am »
unvote per weirdness. Thinking to do...
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: Mafia XI: Find Yourself in the Courtyard Masquerade -- DAY 3
« on: October 26, 2012, 06:28:44 pm »
vote: young nick
ok, now i'm on the shraeye train. card cop is probably weak mafia rolecop. this is definitely helped by the fact that scout seems like frisk's card (the joke being obvious; the non serial killer serial killer role is the dominion card that everyone makes fun of). searching glooble was weird. searching ehalc is borderline ridiculous. ehalc was obvtown, and semi-confirmed town thanks to the wine, and that's why scum killed ehalc.
btw what was frisk's role?? i don't even get it. My best guess is that his wincon was "survivor" but his description made it seem like he had scumbuddies in spite of his neutral alignment. also if his wincon is survivor it's not at all clear how a tracking role is going to help him.
fos: cayvie. ehalc pinned cayvie in what i thought was a pretty damning cross-ex yesterday, and now is dead. also cayvie is allegedly a town pr but doesn't die at night.
ok, now i'm on the shraeye train. card cop is probably weak mafia rolecop. this is definitely helped by the fact that scout seems like frisk's card (the joke being obvious; the non serial killer serial killer role is the dominion card that everyone makes fun of). searching glooble was weird. searching ehalc is borderline ridiculous. ehalc was obvtown, and semi-confirmed town thanks to the wine, and that's why scum killed ehalc.
btw what was frisk's role?? i don't even get it. My best guess is that his wincon was "survivor" but his description made it seem like he had scumbuddies in spite of his neutral alignment. also if his wincon is survivor it's not at all clear how a tracking role is going to help him.
fos: cayvie. ehalc pinned cayvie in what i thought was a pretty damning cross-ex yesterday, and now is dead. also cayvie is allegedly a town pr but doesn't die at night.
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Mafia Game Threads / Re: Mafia XI: Find Yourself in the Courtyard Masquerade -- DAY 3
« on: October 26, 2012, 06:15:07 pm »
yeah, where's the wine? scout fits frisk's role nicely, so i agree with jo's theory. young nick, whose card did you learn last night?
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Dominion General Discussion / Re: Library in Dark Ages
« on: October 25, 2012, 09:56:48 pm »The other day I was thinking about how cards from other sets interact with Dark Ages, and suddenly I came to Library. My first thought was how ruins would work in reducing hand size for the Library. Obviously, something like Festival is best for this, but all of the ruins except Ruined Library reduce handsize. Especially useful for this would be Ruined Village.
A second case is being able to skip all those ruins with the Library. That is just cool. In a cursing game, Library is terrible because it stalls out on the curses. However, when it comes to a ruins it just skips it! (unless you want it of course)
Next, I started thinking about shelters. First thing that comes to mind.....Necropolis! Epic Library enabler. Not sure how the others would fit in since neither are actions, but you are trying to trash them anyway.
So, pretty cool. I think the biggest boon for Library in DA is skipping ruins. Anyone else have other interactions within Dark Ages?
library skips over rats! It's probably still not a good reason to buy rats absent a plan to get rid of them, but it definitely increases their value.