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Messages - vidicate

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1
One that doesn't draw cards.

doh.  I call em terminals.  I was thinking like stopping the opponent through an action a la warlord or archer

A terminal and a stop card aren’t the same. Native Village and Gold are both stop cards, while also both being non-terminal. And on the other hand neither Moat nor Merchant are stop cards, even if one is terminal and one is not. Terminality is a key characteristic of cards useful in any discussion. “Stop card” is a phrase mostly relevant in discussing engines. I used to not care about what a stop card was, content to leaving it to MtG elitists (my POV at the time) from which these terms (like Cantrip) come from. But now I’m very much one of them :P ;D

2
With the new Tax, Black Cat can give your opponent debt (assuming it's reacting to a Victory card they bought or otherwise gained during their Buy phase)

I'm not sure if that would ever be a particularly strong effect, but it's certainly a novel one, since up till now there's never been a way to give someone debt (the -$1 token being the closest thing)

just played a swindler tax game.  funny to tax curses and then give a debt with curse on the next turn.  JOAT was also on board.  Taxing the silver becomes a pretty strong attack, especially if you don't get a JOAT yourself.  But in that game he swindled me one b/c he was so sick of me doing it.

With Tax you only take the debt if it’s your Buy phase. So Swindler, JoAT, and any gainers/Attacks played in the action phase won’t give debt.

3
Rules Questions / Re: Donating your Entire Hand
« on: August 01, 2022, 01:18:05 pm »
More scenarios, however unusual/unlikely:

* You had Durations in play that couldn’t be trashed to Donate.
* Sacred Grove (The Mountain’s Gift)
* Greed (from a Doom Attack)
* You already bought Exploration
* You had a sizable cache of Coffers
* Bargain + a Way (best candidates: Butterfly, Monkey, Mule, Seal, Sheep; Mouse with an appropriate target; Chameleon would require the opponents to buy Bargain as much as 4 times)
* Ally: Crafters’ Guild, League of Bankers
* You already Prince’d a payload card.

* You can potentially win all the Baths points.
* Certain other Landmarks also make it possible that an unwise opponent ends the game with a lower score than you.

* Variant of the original problem in which you trashed all payload (and even all Actions), but held onto a gainer such as Devil’s Workshop

I came up with a couple other weird ones, but they boiled down to one of the above or already posted situations.

4
Trail + Replace + Harem

Trail + Replace is already a nice combo. Trashing a Trail with Replace is already non-terminal and can get you good cards, not to mention being able to turn your Estates into Trails. But add Harem, and you can now Curse your opponent while gaining a Harem, for a 3 point swing, and it's non-terminal!

And if you’re playing a casual, home game, you might even draw the topdecked Harem with the “trashed” Trail. Fun times, even if not correct.

5
This one might not even be a negative synergy, but an inverse reverse negative synergy?  Possession and Barbarian.  If your opponent has Barbarians it becomes pretty dangerous to play them, as Barbarian smashes to a curse like 30% of the time.  You won't lose the cards you trash, and if you faux trash good cards, you could get some free lower-cost cards, but if you could easily cause yourself to gain a curse too.
Anyone not possessed still trashes their cards, including the possessor.

6
Rules Questions / Re: Sailor/Blockade
« on: July 26, 2022, 04:33:23 pm »
Ah, I see this is already answered on the wiki. Good work, everyone!
You tease! Just going to leave us hanging? :P ;)
The answer for anyone reading is Blockade is discarded in Clean-up.

7
Way of the Turtle makes Guard Dog's reaction rather useful against discard attacks. It sets itself aside so that, a Militia attack, for example, against a 5-card hand with one Guard Dog only ends up forcing you to discard one card, and then at the start of your turn, you've basically got a Lab effect
Or Scheme 2 Horse Traders every turn. That’s how we used to do it, and it was good enough for us. Didn’t need any fancy sideways cards or 2nd editions.

8
Dominion General Discussion / Re: cauldron is kind of funny
« on: July 25, 2022, 03:56:59 pm »
Cauldron is great. Treasure with +Buy is best source of +Buy. It loves being in a deck with a gainer/remodeler/(Horse-gainer), and doesn’t care if it’s terminal. Non-terminal gainers even kind of anti-synergize with Cauldron if you end up with 3 gains before your Buy phase.

9
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Crazy Possession Game
« on: July 22, 2022, 12:51:55 pm »
That sounds fun!

10
Rules Questions / Re: Scheme / Highwayman
« on: July 21, 2022, 05:05:30 pm »
DZ aren’t you the one that added this exact interaction to the wiki a few months ago? Do you remember your source? But, yeah it looks legit.

11
Rules Questions / Re: Donate "first"
« on: July 21, 2022, 01:14:54 pm »
* Unlike other "start of turn" effects (such as Archive or Clerk), Donate happens first. So if you have any Clerks in your starting hand, you can't play them until you finish Donating.
* Regardless of what your original hand size was, you draw 5 cards after trashing.
   - just pulled from the wiki

The “first” on Donate means it has a separate, earlier trigger than all other start of turn triggers/effects, including Haunted Woods +3 cards. But maybe I’m not understanding the question?

12
I believe the Semi-interesting Moments thread has a similar origin story as your first link, and the existence of them both is possibly an even more redundant comparison. (Not fully, just more)

Edit: However you view the sitch, we do owe that thread for the birth of the term “card-shaped thing”.

13
Dominion General Discussion / Re: barbarian continues to savage
« on: July 19, 2022, 08:38:03 pm »
In the game above I imagine Barbarians were being picked up when King’s Courts got trashed? Otherwise, without an abundance of expensive Action cards, Barbarian doesn’t lend itself to trash/deplete it’s own pile any quicker; the players would have to deliberately load up on a terminal Silver (over other, usually better options) to do that.

In the other games you (or anyone) speak of, are you and your opponents buying them back and forth in some kind of reactionary arms race? I had a game a long time ago where I swear my friend got to the point he was shuffling his Saboteur to the top whenever my Minion deck made him re-shuffle—so basically every turn. He wanted to smack down my Minions so bad lol.

14
Rules Questions / Re: Urchin "while in play"?
« on: July 18, 2022, 04:42:05 pm »
Does it even need "this turn"? "When you play another Attack card, you may trash this from play" would seem to have it covered.
Yes, it does. “This turn” tells you how long the ongoing trigger is in effect for.

In what circumstance would the presence of absence of "this turn" make a difference, though? (I agree that the version without "this turn" would probably want a dividing line, but I'm not asking about whether the dividing line would make a difference just the "this turn".)
I don’t think it would make much difference, like my last sentence indicated.

But my response was given under the premise that “this turn” is replacing “while this is in play” effects in general, and you in fact removed “with this in play” (an equivalent expression) in your example. The “this turn” makes that removal valid. (Otherwise the trigger could just be ongoing forever, making the card a bastardized Duration or something.)

AJD's suggestion works fine. It's equivalent to Reactions like "when x, you may reveal this from your hand" etc. Neither "this turn" or "while you have this in play" is needed, because the trigger is always active. (The only problem is that it doesn't specify that "from play" only refers to your play area, which was also the case with old Lighthouse etc., but nowadays Donald has changed it to "when you have this in play".)

Interesting. Does any card exist that sets up a trigger on play that doesn’t specify when or how long that trigger is active?
We can talk about how this goofy “trigger always active” version of Urchin would work, but that discussion, while fun for theory-crafting, was beyond the scope of what I was addressing—consistency with Dominion’s other cards and wordings.


An old question that I suddenly realized could be relevant in a corner-case. Is Urchin equivalent to "while you have this in play, when you play another Attack"?

If you play an Attack, and gain a copy via Kiln "first", and play Urchin then (via Sheepdog>Mouse>Vassal), does Urchin trigger?
I'm going with, no, because you didn't play another Attack card with the Urchin in play.

Obv. Urchin should be "this turn"; it's not something getting emergency errata errata though.

I'm prettty sure that according to the ruling about Goons entering play in the when-buy window when you have bought a card (and other rulings like that), Urchin should trigger. That is, if Urchin is indeed "while you have this in play", which it sounds like you're saying. When you play Urchin, you're still in the "before resolving" window of the played Attack card, which is when Urchin triggers.
It resembles the Livery stuff that's gone back and forth.

The wording on Urchin makes my ruling seem clear. Really the problem is that you don't want to word Urchin that way.

Ok, I guess I see what you're saying. "With this is play" is part of the trigger. Which means Urchin is not "while this is in play, when...".

EDIT: It's not a very satisfying interpretation though, because it means that the trigger is "when you have this in play and play another Attack card", which is supposed to be meaningfully different from a card saying "while you have this in play, when you play another Attack card". In other words, having "when you have this is play" be part of a trigger is pretty messy.


Back to your original question, are you interpreting the “first” on Kiln to mean you haven’t actually started to play the card (Attack) yet? Clearly you have started to play it, but the official FAQ regarding Moat’s reaction does lend itself to your question. I think Moat’s reaction triggers, but then takes a back seat to what Kiln says (because of the “first”) before the Moat holder can act on that trigger. Meanwhile your Urchin shows up after the Attack was initially played. (Per another ruling, Kiln’s trigger has the same timing as the Adventures tokens.)

15
So if Corsair is a Caravan, Enchantress is a Double Caravan? For merely $3? Man, I gotta reevaluate that card!

Corsair is not a Caravan. Corsair's +1 Card is a Caravan.
Don’t worry, I knew what you meant. You even quoted the exact phrase you were responding to for Chuckles’ assessment.

16
Why are we sleeping on Bandit (and Thief)? And of course Locusts does the Barbarian thing too.

17
Rules Questions / Re: Urchin "while in play"?
« on: July 17, 2022, 09:46:52 pm »
Does it even need "this turn"? "When you play another Attack card, you may trash this from play" would seem to have it covered.
Yes, it does. “This turn” tells you how long the ongoing trigger is in effect for.

In what circumstance would the presence of absence of "this turn" make a difference, though? (I agree that the version without "this turn" would probably want a dividing line, but I'm not asking about whether the dividing line would make a difference just the "this turn".)
I don’t think it would make much difference, like my last sentence indicated.

But my response was given under the premise that “this turn” is replacing “while this is in play” effects in general, and you in fact removed “with this in play” (an equivalent expression) in your example. The “this turn” makes that removal valid. (Otherwise the trigger could just be ongoing forever, making the card a bastardized Duration or something.)

18
Rules Questions / Re: Urchin "while in play"?
« on: July 17, 2022, 09:15:22 pm »
If Dark Ages is getting a 2E, and Urchin is being removed (hence no recent wording update for the printers), I really hope we get another trasher-Attack to replace Mercenary. It’s a rare ability, Catapult being the only other straight trasher Attack.

For the same reason I was stoked to see Berserker join Vampire as a straight gainer Attack.

Does it even need "this turn"? "When you play another Attack card, you may trash this from play" would seem to have it covered.
Yes, it does. “This turn” tells you how long the ongoing trigger is in effect for. And for consistency your example would still have the dividing line. A re-write would probably look something like this (with no dividing line):

“This turn, when you play an Attack, you may first trash this from play to gain a Mercenary.”

But I don’t really see the percentage with this change for Urchin, tbh.

19
Rules Questions / Re: Tactician / Coastal Haven
« on: July 16, 2022, 10:38:53 pm »
Follow up thoughts/questions/clarifications-

The cards chosen for Coastal Haven (CH), like Improve, are never technically discarded. So if there was a theoretical card/effect that had a when-discard trigger that wasn’t excluded in the Clean-up phase, it couldn’t fire off with cards kept by CH’s effect.

The timing for CH’s trigger is pseudo-start of Clean-up, correct? If any true start of Clean-up effects trigger, they would be resolved before CH.

Mechanically, it feels like Improve and CH want to have the same trigger timing. If they did, and you would choose the order, I can’t think of a reason you would prefer CH to happen first, but edge-cases for it going second definitely exist. So we’re happy with how we have it anyway, right? ;) Actually, since you don’t even pick which cards to keep until you actually discard the hand (right?), then the order is irrelevant. (Edit: edge case for Improve-Sycophant, Improve with Guildmaster in play, or Improve-Innovation/Sailor a Liaison (directly or indirectly)) So “never mind” to most of this paragraph.

With all that said, we know there were 5 different (yet basically equivalent) printed wordings tried with CH, and I’m curious how many just used “start of Clean-up”, and if any tried “end of your Buy phase”. There’s no issue with the current wording, of course.

Also, mental note, Improve should be end-of-buy-phase (yes then Villa makes it trigger again, ugh).
At this point how likely is it that Improve will see a wording change—added to the current round of errata/tweaks / next version sent to the printer?

20
This wasn’t clear?
Replacing Trail with Border Village allows instant emptying of the BV pile. With at least one other Action card in play, you play a Berserker from your hand as Butterfly. Return it to its pile to gain a BV, then choose Berserker as the cheaper card (thus getting back the same Berserker you'd just returned) and repeat the process until the BV pile is empty, or, alternately, you buy a BV, gain a Berserker, play it with Butterfly, and start the cycle from there

21
Contraband isn't in Prosperity 2E, it was "replaced" by War Chest.
Which subscription level grants access to the “Deprecated” cards?
I have them with “Complete”, of course. I’m sure this has been answered elsewhere, but figured people reading this thread might want to know.
Since the OP does not have Contraband in their subscription, I assume they're not contained in "Core" - which would be strange, since most of them are conceptually simpler than their replacements, and certainly in the simpler half of all cards.
They almost certainly were looking under Prosperity where they couldn’t see Contraband, which doesn’t answer the question of whether they have access to the Deprecated “set”.

22
Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: Codenames XIII
« on: July 09, 2022, 11:02:32 am »
Oh, shit, sorry man. I just woke up and wasn’t thinking. I agree, I should’ve guessed one and let you respond to my last comment. Then again, that wouldn’t make the game any faster. And I’m pretty sure Eevee wasn’t talking only about Swowl, just saying. ;)
However it goes down, it’s gg time.

23
Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: Codenames XIII
« on: July 09, 2022, 09:27:06 am »
Waiting for the missing players is what's making this so slow
When you’re right, you’re right.
OK, going for all the marbles. FORCE, STAFF

24
Contraband isn't in Prosperity 2E, it was "replaced" by War Chest.
Which subscription level grants access to the “Deprecated” cards?
I have them with “Complete”, of course. I’m sure this has been answered elsewhere, but figured people reading this thread might want to know.

25
If you look at the card pool levels (should be a button for it somewhere on the automatch tab), you can see what cards are in each level. Everything level 5 and below is part of Core.

At "New table", I can click on levels 1 to 10, but no cards are shown except for level 1 (=base set). Probably that's because I don't currently have a subscription. But my point is that I want to know what I would get with a Core subscription before buying it.

Have you, or anyone without a sub, tried the “View Card Pools” button on the Automatch screen? You should be able to pick any level (across the top) and it will show what all is there - under “New Cards” by default.

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