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51

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Compare the Villages

« on: August 25, 2011, 05:17:04 pm »

Yes, I actually put Farming Village as the second best Village because it is like a reverse Rabble and can clear out greens during the all-important VP rush of the end game.  It is a natural foil against some of the stronger attacks;  it neuters Ghost Ship, Rabble and Fortune Teller and mitigates cursers.  It is absurd in treasure-less decks.

When I was playing IRL, someone opened Farming Village/Silver, and I chuckled to myself.  Then, on their 1st play of Farming Village, they discarded 2 Estates, and I dropped my jaw at how this helped them cycle their early buys.  This was maybe a lucky draw, but does Farming Village have any value as an opening buy for it's ability to skip an Estate?

52

Dominion General Discussion / Re: What would make you go Village/Smithy?

« on: August 23, 2011, 06:41:22 pm »

One factor is what is your opponent doing?  On their turns 1-4, did they buy Smithy, Silver, Silver, Gold?  If your opponent isn't going BM and building a cute engine, it gives you more wiggle room to build your own engine.  How many Markets to buy?  Well did your opponent buy 2 or 3 Markets?  Then in that case you can buy 2.

Let us assume that your opponent is a robot who plays Big Money Ultimate + the best single enabling Action card on the table + any kingdom-treasure cards that are helpful, period, no ifs, ands or buts, and you know this before the game starts.

I might very well lose to a Big Money Ultimate robot some of the time... maybe I lose 70% of the time to a Big Money Ultimate robot, but in that situation, in that one game I played, maybe I got the 30% lucky and it made me think that Village/Smithy can be effective.  Though I know Village/Smithy has lost for me before, it's attractive in it's fun factor (oooh I'm playing more cards).  Now lets instead assume my opponent plans to be a Big Money Ultimate robot, but then my purchases and occasional big turns have a psychological effect that can take my opponent off their game, and they make a non-treasure buy to counter what they are afraid of might happen, and that could get me the upper hand.

Though I think Remodeling style cards are key... if you can Remodel Copper->Cellar or Estate->Smithy, you are replacing dead cards with cards that help keep the engine going. Sure, you can draw Smithy and no Village... using Cellar or Wharehouse can help you dig for that Village you need to kick off a big turn.

Personally, I'd be kind of surprised if Remodel, alone, was enough to make such an engine work.

I think Remodel-style cards (Remodel or Upgrade) are enablers to help the engine work, but solely, you're right - Village/Smithy/Remodel isn't good enough.  You need to be getting into the +buys (or pseudo buys like Horn of Plenty), or attack cards, or something of incremental value (Monuments).

And attacks!  If you can build an engine that can play attack cards more reliably (not just Goons) than that draw power and those big turns have a pay off.  If you can play Militia followed by Masquerade, for example, iiitt iizzz NICE, eh?

Though both Militia and Masquerade hurt you, and both are excellent single-action cards for your BMU-robot opponent to use against you (Masquerade more so, I assume).

Maybe 30% shined on me those days I recall on BSW when my opponent opened Militia, but I worked around it and eked out a victory, or my opponent bought a ton of Gold but I was able to Remodel into dutchies and sneak out a win.  But I do find that getting to draw and play attack cards more frequently can buy you enough time to continue engine building.

53

Dominion General Discussion / Re: What would make you go Village/Smithy?

« on: August 23, 2011, 05:59:16 pm »

One factor is what is your opponent doing?  On their turns 1-4, did they buy Smithy, Silver, Silver, Gold?  If your opponent isn't going BM and building a cute engine, it gives you more wiggle room to build your own engine.  How many Markets to buy?  Well did your opponent buy 2 or 3 Markets?  Then in that case you can buy 2.

Though I think Remodeling style cards are key... if you can Remodel Copper->Cellar or Estate->Smithy, you are replacing dead cards with cards that help keep the engine going. Sure, you can draw Smithy and no Village... using Cellar or Wharehouse can help you dig for that Village you need to kick off a big turn.

And attacks!  If you can build an engine that can play attack cards more reliably (not just Goons) than that draw power and those big turns have a pay off.  If you can play Militia followed by Masquerade, for example, iiitt iizzz NICE, eh?

54

Game Reports / Trade Route for Duke/Duchy

« on: August 23, 2011, 05:41:03 pm »

In a previous post, I mentioned I was inspired by this article to try Duke/Duchy and did so with Trade Route in this game.

I had another game featuring Trade Route and Duke/Duchy, so I gave it another go.
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110822-045420-cbe36310.html

This time, I also used Bureaucrat to give me some extra Silvers and despite opening Trade Route/Bureaucrat, I had 5 Silvers after Turn 6 and Turn 7 allowed me to get a Grand Market.

Note my opponent's Turns 4 & 5 each got him a Gold and Turn 6 got him a Grand Market - he's totally beating me in card quality.  Didn't I read Beyond Silver - what was I thinking?  It looks like I have lost this game already.

So I dip into the Hunting Party on Turn 8 and and he follows me there.  I realize with Trade Route, Bureaucrat, etc., that Hunting Party might not be extremely effective, so I plan to trash Bureaucrat at my 1st opportunity.  I'm also thinking that Gold may mess me up, and between the Silvers, Grand Markets, and Trade Routes, I should be able to make an effective Duke/Duchy go, so I plan to avoid Gold.

On Turn 14 my opponent buys the 1st Province and starts the VP race.  His deck has a ridiculous amount of buying power comparatively and I'm still staring down a losing scenario.  But I get a fantastic draw on Turn 14 where I can trash my Bureaucrat with Trade Route, and buy 2 Duchies.

Now I realize I just sent a signal that I'm going for Duke/Duchy, and I decide to split my two buys and 11 coin on Province/Trade Route on Turn 15 to Jedi mind-trick my opponent that I've given up on Duke/Duchy.

Then on Turn 16 I buy another 2 Duchies.

In my opinion, my opponent has been playing well up to this point, but then has a questionable Turn 17 buying Gold + Village.  I believe my opponent didn't see the Dukes value and was keeping his buying power strong.  He picks up Turn 18: Province, Turn 19: Gold & Grand Market, Turn 20: Hunting Party and I'm still not comfortable.  At Turn 20, I have bought multiple Dukes and Duchies but I feel like he still has me outclassed in card quality and reach - he can just counter buying out the Dukes/Duchies better than I can...

The fact that he doesn't counter doesn't draw a definite conclusion to whether Trade Route is effective at targetting Duke/Duchy.  The point of this game report is that people undervalue Duke and you can use this to your advantage, catch them off guard, throw in a Jedi mind-trick, and maybe Trade Route can get you there.
[edit to fix misspellings]

55

Dominion General Discussion / Re: What would make you go Village/Smithy?

« on: August 23, 2011, 01:39:26 pm »

If Remodel is out there, I like to Remodel Estate->Village or Smithy.  Note the way I play might not be optimal enough to beat BM every game, though I'm comfortable in that fact that if I pick a strategy that has a 45% chance to win, it will still feel like I can win 1/2 the games.

If Monument is out there, I like to try to Throne Room or Village into multiple Monuments (though I prefer Throne Room in this case) - maybe Iron Works to gain the necessary components?

Let's replace Smithy with Nobles in the Kingdom, and it feels like Nobles quality improves with Villages... though my gut feeling would likely be proven to be far from optimal by a simulator.

56

Dominion Articles / Re: Request: Remodel

« on: August 16, 2011, 05:09:35 pm »

In a game where you know you'll be gunning for 5 Laboratories, and there are no +Buys, the Remodel serves multiple roles.  First, you can Remodel Estates into Silvers or otherwise useful cards.  Second, a turn where you Remodel Silver->Lab and buy a Lab could get you the winning side of a 6/4 split on the Labs.  Finally, that Remodel is like a source of +Buy converting Treasure into VP on late turns.

I don't think opening remodel in any race for $5 cards is a good idea, because even though it may help you get an extra one later, it's going to make it hard to get the first. Your first remodel turn can't produce $5 (unless you remodel your silver), and if your silver draws with the remodel or with 2 estates, it won't help you get $5 either, so you may very well be unable to hit $5 before the second shuffle.

I agree Silver/Silver might be a stronger open to gun for Labs and then getting Remodel on a convenient $4, but often there's never a convenient $4.  Occassionaly, if you open Remodel/Silver, draw Remodel with Estates once or twice, and you've made up whatever disadvantage you previously perceived.

57

Dominion Articles / Re: Request: Remodel

« on: August 16, 2011, 04:14:29 pm »

In a game where you know you'll be gunning for 5 Laboratories, and there are no +Buys, the Remodel serves multiple roles.  First, you can Remodel Estates into Silvers or otherwise useful cards.  Second, a turn where you Remodel Silver->Lab and buy a Lab could get you the winning side of a 6/4 split on the Labs.  Finally, that Remodel is like a source of +Buy converting Treasure into VP on late turns.

58

Rules Questions / Re: Reaction Quandaries

« on: August 15, 2011, 11:47:55 am »

1) Yes.  First step is Player B plays Minion which is an "Attack" card... now Player A may play reactions.  Next, Player B chooses which option ($2 or discard and draw 4).

2) No discarding is necessary... it's determined after Horse Traders is set aside.

59

Game Reports / Re: Combo (with game report): Baron/Duke

« on: August 10, 2011, 10:14:56 am »

This isn't Baron-related (subject of this thread) but in the spirit of alternate Duke strategies, I was also inspired by the article last night to try for Dukes, and I went for it with Trade Route in this game.  Maybe I should have bought Copper like the article suggested as it was a very close victory.  Also, my play may be somewhat suspect going for Talisman. 

60

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Any Gossip About Fall 2011 Expansion?

« on: August 08, 2011, 04:46:54 pm »

I think a Super-Moneylender that trashed a "treasure" (as in any card with type "treasure") would be at least interesting.  It solves the issue of drawing Moneylender dead after most Coppers are gone.

61

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Tournement / Competition?

« on: August 01, 2011, 02:48:19 pm »

What do you do in the unlikely but possible event of a tie?

62

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Kings Court + Possession

« on: July 27, 2011, 05:13:30 pm »

When I finally have 6 coin + potion, that's the turn my opponent possesses me.  OK, so it's only happened once or twice, but you really remember those bad beats.  The Possession race is a tough race to lose.  "King's Court + Possession is pretty ridiculous." - it's King's Court is the problem child here.  King's Court + Mountebank or Ambassador is also ridiculous.

63

Dominion Articles / Re: I don't know what this thread has turned into (was Making it to Level 42 -Lvl 5)

« on: July 27, 2011, 03:02:16 pm »

While I enjoy playing random just like anyone, I play predefined sets on occasion - I think it's still "playing the game."  There are predefined sets directly in the rule book such as:
"For the first game, we recommend using the following 10 Kingdom cards: Cellar, Market, Militia, Mine, Moat, Remodel, Smithy, Village, Woodcutter, and Workshop."
The aforementioned player wacked me with a predefined set but I knew what I was getting into... isotropic is kind enough to alert you about the constraints used.

I have no problem with predefined sets on occasion (or even refusing to play with high variance cards/sets as many players do), but this is hardly on occasion.

I did a quick exercise and repeatedly chose 3 of his/her 10 kingdom card preferences (i.e. Vault/Grand Market/Peddler, Tactician/Smugglers/Tournament) to search through my 3K+ games and found that I've only played 0-3 games with such trios. Virtually all of this player's games are with the same predefined set which I find to be outside the spirit of Dominion because part of the beauty of the game is the challenge of formulating a strategy as you analyze the opening kingdom set.

Furthermore, I can't imagine this player doesn't hold a significant edge over his/her opponents by having gained so much experience playing the same kingdom set over and over. Would you regularly play a chess game where the first four moves were predetermined and your opponent had played the game hundreds of times before? What about a Texas Hold'em game where the hands were void if there wasn't a flush draw on the flop? How did we feel when we played our first KC/KC/Goons/Masquerade game prior to being aware of the combo?

Artificially limiting the rules of any game in a way that maximizes your advantage over the opponent seems lame in my opinion. And yes, I realize it's my opinion.

I'll concede that if all one does is use constraints to their advantage it could be viewed as out of the spirit of the game in the popular way that many people enjoy Dominion.  My play group occasionally plays predefined sets (usually the ones in the rule books, and sometimes people will just propose a custom set).  So I've taken that into my isotropic play and, in addition to playing random, I use predefined sets (like the starter set, custom sets, etc.).  Sure, I said "occasionally" regarding my playgroup.  However, predefined sets are in the rules, and therefore part of the game, and to some people, it's in the spirit of the game they enjoy.  I can't recall the URL but I've seen a web site listing predefined Dominion sets people have created.  I understand your points and your views - I respect that your opinion is probably popular opinion.  And I mostly share that opinion, except for that I also see the side that predefined sets are also part of the game, a valid way to play the game, one supported by isotropic, and there is at least a niche group of people that enjoy that way.

64

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Warehouse/Chapel odds

« on: July 27, 2011, 02:27:46 pm »

I've never seen theory's strategy before, but it's extremely strong for basically a 3 card deck deck (2 Coppersmith, Tactician) getting 4 Provinces consistently in <12 turns:
...
It beats just about any other Province oriented strategy, but gets crushed by attacking strategies.

That Coppersmith strategy blew my mind.  Coppersmith is a card I've largely ignored.  I'd be interested in seeing other uses of Coppersmith as I've only tried the card a couple times and was usually underwhelmed.

65

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Warehouse/Chapel odds

« on: July 27, 2011, 11:39:48 am »

I was trying to find a game where Warehouse/Chapel was the opening, and I found this game.  It might not be typical but the Warehouse/Chapel player gets non-optimal draws after playing Warehouse and has to trash Estates one at a time.  Essentially, due to the hand-size reduction from Warehouse, trashing three cards at a time instead of four.  This non-optimal scenario may be a rare case, but the tempo slow-down of this downside is discerning.

Does anyone have a link to a game where it went well?  I'd like to see an example of the upside practically applied in game-time.

66

Dominion General Discussion / Re: When do you go for luck?

« on: July 27, 2011, 08:30:00 am »

Sometimes the game forces you into making a strategy change and you need to dig out a lucky alternative strategy.  For example, in this game, I Swindlered 1 of my opponent's Minions into a Dutchy on Turn 8 and bought my 5th Minion.  My opponent bought the remaining Minion, and doubly returned the favor in later turns by Swindlering 2 of my Minions into Dutchies.  In a dramatic shift, I go from being ahead in the Minion race 5-4 to falling behind 3-4.  I can no longer rely on Minion as my source of coin, and my opponent has purchasing power for Provinces and I can't dream of attaining that.  So I start loading up on Monuments and Hamlets, use Minion to cycle into my Monuments, and buy out the Dutchies (I already had 2 from Swindler) and 3-pile to end the game.  This game gave me an obvious cue that I need to go for luck.  Dominion is such a short game with such few turns, that unlike Magic the Gathering, it's very difficult to come back from being behind.  Then again, you can always play another.

67

Dominion Articles / Re: I don't know what this thread has turned into (was Making it to Level 42 -Lvl 5)

« on: July 27, 2011, 08:07:22 am »

I just got a curious proposal for a game so I decided to look up the proposer's Council Room page. I'll let it speak for itself.

http://councilroom.com/search_result?p1_name=HornyToad

Say what you want about tat, but at least he plays the game.

While I enjoy playing random just like anyone, I play predefined sets on occasion - I think it's still "playing the game."  There are predefined sets directly in the rule book such as:
"For the first game, we recommend using the following 10 Kingdom cards: Cellar, Market, Militia, Mine, Moat, Remodel, Smithy, Village, Woodcutter, and Workshop."
The aforementioned player wacked me with a predefined set but I knew what I was getting into... isotropic is kind enough to alert you about the constraints used. 

68

Dominion Articles / Re: Making it to Level 42: Level 5- Money Makes Your Deck Go 'Round (Delayed)

« on: July 26, 2011, 08:25:00 pm »

I'm with ackack on starting a new article for "making it to level 42".

That said, I usually automatch and vary from level 23-31, and I learned not to worry too much about level, but when I turn automatch off, it's difficult to find a 31+ level player to propose a game with.  Automatch works so fluidly that I almost agree with tat and automatch is the way to go to play many games.  Trying to propose games just slows you down... I agree with the people backing up tat knowing whoever that person is, they are good at Dominion.

69

Dominion General Discussion / Re: When do you go for luck?

« on: July 26, 2011, 10:40:05 am »

This is a strategy that people probably aren't even used to yet, as thsi game is still young(ish). For example, this line of strategic thinking has existed in MtG for a LONG time, but it also took a LONG time for people to understand it.

For example, in mtg, if you are far enough behind that the only possible chance you are winning is if X card is on top of your deck, then you PLAY as though it is. If you want a great read on the topic, take a look at:  http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/fundamentals/12632_Better_Lucky_Than_Good_Seven_Ways_to_Get_Lucky.html

I was fortunate enough to learn how to play Magic at a card shop where Pat Chapin (author of that article) used to play.  He's a genius at jedi mind tricking his opponents into playing into his strategy, and one of my favorite quotes from him regarding my deck with 3 Necropotences (when I should have played the full 4)... "Would you drive a car with only 3 tires?"

70

Dominion Articles / Re: Conspirator

« on: July 21, 2011, 03:32:00 pm »

I have here a log of a game that lacked any village effects, but had good enough trashing and secondary enablers (Bishop, Hunting Party, and Warehouse) that I successfully played the Conspirator engine anyway.

Cards in supply: Colony, Platinum, Bank, Bishop, Conspirator, Expand, Haven, Horn of Plenty, Hunting Party, Salvager, Smugglers, and Warehouse

To have the presence of mind to not trash a Copper so you could buy a Hunting Party is amazing. I would auto-pilot and trash the Copper... but during the buy-phase regret it.  Good forseight.
   — Josientje's turn 4 —
   Josientje plays a Bishop.
   ... getting +$1 and +1 ▼.
   ... Josientje trashes a Copper.
   ... Auroch trashes nothing.       Josientje plays 3 Coppers.
   Josientje buys a Silver.
   (Josientje reshuffles.)
   (Josientje draws: an Estate, 2 Coppers, a Conspirator, and a Silver.)

— Auroch's turn 5 —

Auroch plays a Bishop.
... getting +$1 and +1 ▼.
... Auroch trashes an Estate and gets +1 ▼.
... Josientje trashes a Copper.
Auroch plays a Silver and 2 Coppers.
Auroch buys a Hunting Party.
(Auroch draws: a Warehouse, 3 Coppers, and a Conspirator.)
   

71

Dominion Articles / Re: Making it to Level 42: Level 5- Money Makes Your Deck Go 'Round (Delayed)

« on: July 21, 2011, 03:26:52 pm »

Hello, the next article in the series is delayed. It contains commentary for some games which I am currently seeking permission to use. Otherwise, it is ready to go.

Just post the article.  Permission is a noble but unnecessary pursuit. Us less than level-42 people are interested in your expert commentary.

72

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Reasons to ignore Chapel?

« on: July 21, 2011, 12:18:46 pm »

Apparently Quarry->Grand Market > Chapel in this case.  Though I will add if one strategy appears to be superior, and beats a case 60% of the time, 40% will happen enough.  Would you have a picnic if 40% chance of thunderstorms?

73

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Expert Advice for Novices: What did I do wrong??

« on: July 21, 2011, 11:01:14 am »

If someone opens Ghost Ship/- against me I generally assume I'm in for a long grind of an unfun game.  While I'm putting 2 cards on my deck and shuffling the rare but occassional good buys less often, they are drawing 2 cards, shuffling more, seeing their better buys more often, playing Ghost Ship again.... argh - it's painful even writing about it.

74

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Expert Advice for Novices: What did I do wrong??

« on: July 21, 2011, 10:32:07 am »

In that game you got 4 Merchant Ships.  In a game with no +actions, I prefer to limit myself to 2 Merchant Ships (similar game with Wharf and no +actions, 2 maybe 3 max).  Silver is preferrable after the 2nd Merchant Ship since Ghost Ship can draw you into a Silver.  These guidelines I follow are by no means perfect and my advice is not "expert advice".

75

Dominion Isotropic / Re: Feature request: Potion games

« on: July 20, 2011, 06:01:25 pm »

I've tried this IRL and found that playing 3 Alchemy cards makes games that randomized Alchemy too similar.  I like the isotropic way where you can end up with just 1 Alchemy card.

For example, in this game, painted_cow uses 2 Apothecaries to accelerate his engine build and it's quite impressive how he thought through the deck building process in this game.  Apothecary is the only Alchemy card in the set but it provides the edge to win this one despite me getting lucky and scoring a turn 7 Platinum.