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26

Dominion: Guilds Previews / Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds

« on: August 20, 2012, 02:28:47 am »

If the always-out design is used, the guild should be an optional effect that requires some cost to activate.  For example, if the Toastmaster's guild is in play, then at the beginning of each turn, you may discard a copper to receive the toastmaster's guild effect for the rest of your turn.

Edit: I really like this idea.  If Guilds doesn't do this, I might try to do a fan expansion implementing this mechanic.

I would be more appreciative of "applies to all cards" effects if it was done like this -- applying to everyone, with an activation cost.

Also, I would suggest this as a basis for a future mini-set design contest.  In another thread we talked about how official expansions are often fairly groundbreaking (e.g. introduction of Durations, Potions, Ruins).  The in-progress set doesn't do that because we can't exactly introduce a whole new mechanic via individual submissions.  This would be a very interesting mechanic to explore as a community.  Of course, if Guilds doesn't do something like it, we'd need to come up with a name for it besides Guilds.

Come to think of it, this would be a super-easy fan expansion for people to actually use, too.  Since the guilds cards don't go in the deck, you don't have to worry about how to actually fabricate the fan cards for play.  You could just print out the guilds (or whatever we call them), and then set the selected guild next to the kingdom piles for reference.

27

Dominion: Guilds Previews / Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds

« on: August 20, 2012, 02:04:16 am »

Personally, given just how a 150 card expansion would have to work, this is my thought:

130 kingdom cards + 13 randomizers leaves room for 7 more cards.  These 7 will be the Guilds referenced in the title.  Each kingdom card will reference Guilds in a vague way, so it will apply to any of them.  Whenever a Guilds kingdom card is out, the stack of Guild cards will be put out, like the Prizes.  They'll have a higher cost (let's say $7), and when you reach $7, you can purchase a Guild - only one per player.  Depending on which Guild you choose, it will provide a bonus to every Guilds kingdom card in your deck.  For example, it might make every card in your deck part Victory (making Scout even more overpowered!).

That one should be called the "Toastmaster's guild."  You know, because they celebrate everything!

I really like your general idea though.  Contrary to eHalycon, I really like the idea that the Guilds could apply to all kingdom cards, because they become more significant (though even harder to balance).  I'm not sure whether they even need to be purchasable -- they could just exist outside the supply and have the stated effect on the entire game.  Like, whenever you use a card from the Guild expansion, you put out a randomly selected Guild card, which has its effect on the whole kingdom for the whole game.  That design has the benefit that all players still see an even field.  If you could buy the toastmasters guild for yourself, and your opponent can't have it, then scout and crossroads become insane for you, but normal for your opponent. 

If the always-out design is used, the guild should be an optional effect that requires some cost to activate.  For example, if the Toastmaster's guild is in play, then at the beginning of each turn, you may discard a copper to receive the toastmaster's guild effect for the rest of your turn.

Edit: I really like this idea.  If Guilds doesn't do this, I might try to do a fan expansion implementing this mechanic.

28

Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: The trash bounce

« on: August 20, 2012, 01:25:32 am »

Here's another one: TR/GR with border village.  Gain a card up to $9 and a card less than $5 by trash bouncing the BV.

I don't think you get the on-gain bonus when you gain BV from the trash.  I believe we had a long, long discussion in this forum about how Gaining (with a capital G) means from the Supply.

Wait, what?  Why?  I mean, I can understand how masquerade doesn't count as a gain, but why isn't gaining from the trash considered Gaining?  That's certainly not intuitive to me...

29

Dominion: Guilds Previews / Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds

« on: August 20, 2012, 12:16:47 am »

Well, one mechanic that we haven't seen is cards that "power up" themselves (a la trade route, city) separately for each player.  I mean, gardens and other alt-vp cards do that, but they're just VP.  Phil stone does that, but it's just money.  What if you had an action card that got more powerful as your deck got bigger?

30

Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: The trash bounce

« on: August 20, 2012, 12:12:11 am »

Here's another one: TR/GR with border village.  Gain a card up to $9 and a card less than $5 by trash bouncing the BV.

31

Goko Dominion Online / Re: Funsockets Payment Model

« on: August 19, 2012, 07:36:13 pm »

I have 200 microsoft point sitting in my xbox live account that I'll never be able to spend. 

The exchange rate was $1=80 points, presumably because they wanted to make it harder to figure out how much games cost.  But that's fine, I can do math, who cares about that.

The real "screw you" was that most downloadable games on xbox arcade cost $5 or $10 (i.e. 400 or 800 points) while, originally, you could only buy points in 1000-point increments.  So one day I wanted to buy a game for 800 points, but I had to pay $12.50 for 1000 points because I didn't have a choice.  That left me with 200 points sitting in my account.

Now, lots of people complained about this, and microsoft eventually capitulated, changing the purchase bundles to $5 increments instead of 1000-point increments.  Now, whenever I buy a game, I can just buy 800 points for $10 (or 400 points for $5) and spend them immediately.

Of course, that means I still have those 200 points.  Just sitting there, laughing at me.  They'll never get spent as long as designers price games as multiples of 400 points.  I consider it the price of doing business with assholes.

32

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Keeping your friends

« on: August 19, 2012, 07:20:46 pm »

I introduced 4 people last week and it went very well (my best introduction to date):

1- play "first kingdom". Demo a few hands do they see how it works. Them play the game with no strategic discussion. I played smithy/bm and won easily.

2- debrief. Explain how smithy big money works. Explain the concept of dead draw. Explain the opportunity cost of not buying silver

3- play first kingdom again. Tell everyone that you will be playing a very different strategy. Again, no strategy talk during the game. Play Geronimo's optimized 1st game engine. Watch their faces when you consistently draw your entire deck and buy 2 provinces

4- debrief. Talk about engines. Talk about trashing and the importance of understanding your limits (ie 5 cards, 1 action, 1 buy)

5- game three: introduce a new board. Make sure it has workshop and gardens. As well as engine potential. People have a chance to build an engine, while you rush gardens.

6- debrief: explain "rush" strategies.

7- now just play random set-ups. First game should include a curser, otherwise just randon. We never repeated a card (and I would skip cards like Scout)

8- after a few games, introduce a colony game. Then a potion game

We ended up playing for 7 hours. Everyone loved it.

In 4p games, I won a lot, but came second a few times. One guy came last every game, but it didn't seem to bother him.

Both couples went out and bought 3 sets each immediately afterwards.


These people had all played Catan before, but otherwise were not hard core gamers.

Ed

This is the way I do it.  I've only gotten the chance to teach 2 people so far (most of my friends thumb their noses at board/card games), but this strategy has worked well in both cases.

Edit: I'm also insanely jealous that you already have a half dozen friends with which to play dominion IRL.

33

Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / The trash bounce

« on: August 19, 2012, 07:13:34 pm »

I want to coin a new term: the "trash bounce."  This refers to any situation where you trash a card and retrieve it from the trash in the same turn. 

The most obvious trash bounce strategy is throne room/graverobber. You TR the GR, using it to trash bounce another GR for a province -- trash the second GR for the province on the first play, and then pick up the trashed GR on the second play.

Can anybody come up with other strategies that use a trash bounce?

34

Goko Dominion Online / Re: Bonfire

« on: August 19, 2012, 02:38:20 pm »

To make it more engaging for casuals - newcomers, they should to LoL - scheme: you got some mini expansions for free each week, and it changes.

Actually this is a phenomenal idea.  It gives casual players a chance to test things out and get used to them and form opinions, and it gives the hardcore players a bit better experience without having to shell out 80 bucks.

I'd also be pretty cool with implementing their RP/IP system where you CAN just grind forever if you really want gameplay elements for free and can resist the shiny little "don't you want them now for a few bucks" button.  I'm guessing that's a pipe dream, though.

Well, you would probably pay in Gokoins or whatever, and buy a bucket equivalent to a bunch of games only occasionally.
Also under my proposed model it would only be $0.25 per game if you always lost, and with a 10% rake you would only need a win rate of 1.2 to break even.
Obviously these numbers would need to be tuned, but I think it has potential.

This just...doesn't sound fun to me personally.  Regardless of when I pay, what form of currency I pay, and even how much I pay, it's a psychological barrier knowing that I have paid money to play this specific game of Dominion, and I had BETTER ENJOY IT OR I WILL HAVE WASTED THAT PENNY/QUARTER/DONALD X. FUNBUCK.  Not to mention it increases the pressure to win, which I don't particularly enjoy.  The goodies when I win I don't think would balance out the frustration when I don't.  That and I foresee a wave of unsavory play from people focused more on getting more coins than actually having fun.  I can't pretend I'd have TOO strong an objection to becoming WW's personal whipping boy and coin farm, but given how much shenanigans there are on isotropic with the sole motivation of a leaderboard, I am kinda scared that it would turn the server into a hive of cheaters and people who only play one board ever.  Maybe those problems wouldn't actually happen, and maybe other people don't share my qualms...but even if it would save me money, your idea stresses me out just to think about it.

I agree with this sentiment.  There's a real psychological cost when you use any sort of gambling or pay-per-game model.  It puts much more stress on the individual game experience, and many people loathe that type of experience and avoid it at all costs.  Lots of people won't gamble for pennies even though no actual risk of financial ruin exists.

I also agree with your point about how people act in the presence of such incentives.  If people go crazy over something as meaningless as a leader board, imagine what they would do once there's money on the line.  Even fake money!

35

Goko Dominion Online / Re: Bonfire

« on: August 19, 2012, 03:09:27 am »

Remember:  That price is for seven games.  Not one, seven.  Ten bucks a game really isn't that terrible.

If you want to claim this, you have to remember that one of those games (base) is pretty lame and boring, and many of the others are completely unplayable taken alone.

If the base game is so lame and boring, how the hell did RGG and DXV sell so many expansions and win Spiel des Jahres?  Just asking.  Unless you meant lame and boring compared with the expanded game--as opposed to lame and boring compared to other games.

On the shelf, it's 8 boxes (9 with Guilds, later).  It's a total of ~2700 cards, plus a bunch of extras, for retail ~$320.  If you're trying to suggest that there aren't 8 games there, well, you'll have to tell the retailers perhaps.  Oh, and tell RGG, because apparently Carcassone is just one game, as is RTFG, and all the maps for Power Grid.  And talk to Mayfair about how much they're gouging for all those Catan expansions--all one game!  And don't get me started on WOTC...

Sounds a bit ridiculous when said that way.  Huh.  Who'd have thought?

On the shelf =/= online. You're argument is pretty terrible; if everything you said there was true and applied equally online to irl, why isn't goko pricing at 320$ then? Why are MMOs only 5-12$/month? Why is the orange box like 50$, when it contains so many games that each have won so many awards? Why are there free, well developed games?

If someone plays MTG or Yugiouh or Pokemon or trading card game X online, they don't pay the thousands of dollars that they would have to for the equivalent OP decks IRL (ok this one's different because of collectability etc. but still)

I could go on and on...

For MTG, the cost of online cards is identical to the cost of IRL cards.  Cards don't cross over from IRL to online, and you can only buy randomized booster packs online, just like IRL.  So that might not be the best illustration of your point.

36

Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: I'm not so sure I like the idea of knights.

« on: August 19, 2012, 01:58:45 am »

Honestly, if you're in a position to get pinned, then you were likely already at a massive engine disadvantage to begin with, and had little to no chance of winning the game anyway.

But that might not be the case with knights.  That's my point: a simple knight split might decide the game.  If two players go for mirror match and player A gets 6 knights where player B gets 4, has player A basically won the game at that point?  IF this is the case (and that's a big IF) and IF knights are dominant when one player buys them and the other ignores them (another big IF), then most boards with knights will turn into a knight rush.

Like I said, I'm sure that these cards have been playtested thoroughly enough to catch such a problem, so I doubt the game will always play out that way.  But I'll only know for sure once I get to try them out myself.

37

Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: I'm not so sure I like the idea of knights.

« on: August 19, 2012, 01:14:59 am »

The knights can only trash cards costing 3 to 6. So they can't trash your coppers, so you always can
1) Pad your deck with a bunch of coppers so that it's less likely you'll lose your more expensive cards
2) Be able to afford cards costing up to 5

so you'll never get locked in to a 5-card hand and have whatever you buy be immediately trashed. You can always make progress, even if that progress is padding your deck with coppers and estates and THEN getting more expensive cards.

Okay, I can see how you can prevent yourself from getting completely pinned, but still -- if you opponent has 2 knights left, you have none, and the rest are gone, it seems like the other guy could almost always win the game in the time it takes you to build up to a card costing more than $5.  Of course, I haven't played with the card yet, so I'm really just guessing.

38

Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: Mercenary confusion

« on: August 19, 2012, 12:48:02 am »

This is a hidden up-side to Pirate Ship btw; if opponents block the attack, you can still take the money.

Beggar would the absolute stupidest Reaction to play in response to a Pirate Ship.

Unless you know your platinum is on top of your deck.

Nope, pirate ship flips 2 cards.  Your plat is still toast.

39

Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: Dark Ages initial report

« on: August 19, 2012, 12:46:48 am »

Man, that rebuild card seems like it will be crazy in the right kingdom.  If you have an engine that can draw your whole deck with extra +buy (e.g. worker's village/smithy), you can just pick up a few rebuilds and buy estates.  If you have 3 rebuilds, assuming you can still draw the deck, that's 3 estate->duchy or duchy-> province upgrades every turn..  This would probably also be awesome in a lab deck as long as you can find a cantrip +buy.  Maybe 2 squires? 

Alternatively, you could just pick up a couple hunting grounds for your engine, trash one of them, and take the estates instead of the duchy!

40

Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: Dominion Dark Ages, irl gaming in Seattle this Saturday

« on: August 19, 2012, 12:38:11 am »

That sounds like fun.  I'd be there if I lived a bit closer.

41

Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: I'm not so sure I like the idea of knights.

« on: August 19, 2012, 12:21:52 am »

You know what I'm worried about?  When Donald talked about why he never did trashing attacks, he always mentioned how games would devolve into states where everybody had 5-card decks and couldn't make any progress.  I thought that this issue was one reason that previous trashing attacks essentially remodel cards instead of trashing them.

I feel like the reason that knights can kill each other is to avoid the 5-card-deck scenario.  But there are 10 knights.  If one player gets more knights than the other (i.e. wins the "knight split"), then once the knights cancel out, the player that started with more knights will still have knights, and at that point he'll be able to trash his opponent's deck down to 5 and keep him there.

I get how pins like this exist already (i.e. KC-Goons-Masq), but those pins were always several card combos, requiring several different cards to show up in the same kingdom.  With knights, though, there is no combo card needed.

Now, I'm assuming that Donald has playtested these cards very thoroughly, so in my mind, there's only two possible explanations: (a) there's some reason that this 5-card-deck pin doesn't actually work out with knights, or (b) Donald just decided that those games are fun sometimes, so he made a card which can create that scenario.  Personally, I'm hoping that it's (a) and I'm just missing something.  If the answer is (b), I'll probably avoid playing with knights when possible.

42

Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: What card design rules are left?

« on: August 18, 2012, 11:56:29 pm »

Torturer lets you gain a curse in hand, as an option.  So "gain bad stuff in hand" has been touched upon.  I can see why Donald likes that better, since the curse pile scales with the number of people playing.

43

Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: Mercenary confusion

« on: August 18, 2012, 08:52:35 pm »

From the Mercenary FAQ in the rulebook:
Players responding to this attack with cards like Beggar must choose to do so before you decide whether or not to trash 2 cards from your hand

This seems a little backward to me, It seems that the attack (opponents discarding down to 3 cards) is dependent on whether you choose to trash two cards because it has that 'if you do' clause. If an opponent revealed their reaction card first and then you decided not to trash two cards, would they still get to take advantage of that reaction?

Yes, they would.  Cards like beggar react to another player playing an attack card, regardless of the attack card's effect.  The reaction must be revealed as soon as the attack card is played, and is resolved before the attack card is resolved.

Edit: ninja'd by the game designer 

44

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Cards you think are underrated/overrated

« on: August 18, 2012, 08:32:32 pm »

You cant get three if it is in the BM deck. You can only get one.

Sure you can.  As your deck bloats with cash, the risk of terminal collision is low, and you want to add some wharves to have a chance of drawing more than one per shuffle.  Terminal collision is still possible, but if you have 25 cards worth of money and vp, then the chance of 2 wharves showing up in one 5-card hand are pretty low.

Let's use some conditional probability.  I have a total of, say, 25 cards, including 2 wharves, with the rest being money/VP.  I just reshuffled my deck and I didn't play a wharf last hand.  The first time a single wharf shows up in my hand, it will appear with 4 other random cards.  When I play it, I will draw 2 more, so I will see a total of 6 cards in addition to the wharf I just played. The chance that one of those 6 cards is the other wharf is 6/24, which is only 25%.

If you bought only one wharf, you've got an extra silver (or possibly a gold) in your deck, but I have a 75% chance to draw an extra 4 cards spread over 2 hands from my second wharf on every shuffle.  That's a huge boost.  In addition, since wharf is a duration, I can virtually ensure that I avoid terminal collision when I play a wharf just before a shuffle.  The unplayed wharf is shuffled into my deck, while the played one stays out for another turn.

Bottom line: 2x wharf BM beats 1x wharf BM every time.  Try it out for yourself.

You know, BM doesn't just mean "Big Money".  It can also mean "Black Market".

Oh, hahaha!  I see what happened there.  Whoops!

45

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Cards you think are underrated/overrated

« on: August 18, 2012, 08:22:47 pm »

You cant get three if it is in the BM deck. You can only get one.

Sure you can.  As your deck bloats with cash, the risk of terminal collision is low, and you want to add some wharves to have a chance of drawing more than one per shuffle.  Terminal collision is still possible, but if you have 25 cards worth of money and vp, then the chance of 2 wharves showing up in one 5-card hand are pretty low.

Let's use some conditional probability.  I have a total of, say, 25 cards, including 2 wharves, with the rest being money/VP.  I just reshuffled my deck and I didn't play a wharf last hand.  The first time a single wharf shows up in my hand, it will appear with 4 other random cards.  When I play it, I will draw 2 more, so I will see a total of 6 cards in addition to the wharf I just played. The chance that one of those 6 cards is the other wharf is 6/24, which is only 25%.

If you bought only one wharf, you've got an extra silver (or possibly a gold) in your deck, but I have a 75% chance to draw an extra 4 cards spread over 2 hands from my second wharf on every shuffle.  That's a huge boost.  In addition, since wharf is a duration, I can virtually ensure that I avoid terminal collision when I play a wharf just before a shuffle.  The unplayed wharf is shuffled into my deck, while the played one stays out for another turn.

Bottom line: 2x wharf BM beats 1x wharf BM every time.  Try it out for yourself.

46

Dominion: Guilds Previews / Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds

« on: August 18, 2012, 08:08:01 pm »

When I first heard about guilds, I thought about "Village Guild" or "Library Guild" which have an effect like "All cards played after this card have +Action or + 1 Card added to the beginning of their text."

I am pretty sure this would be a balance nightmare.

Whenever someone says there is a balance issue with a variant, I just sit back and wait for DXV to prove them horribly wrong.

I don't think "balance nightmare" and "DXV balancing something correctly" are mutually exclusive.

It's all about playtesting.  Donald has the ability to playtest his ideas far beyond the degree available to most fans.  Some of the cards in DA look crazy to me, like they will break the game.  But I believe that they are balanced -- not because Donald is just a brilliant mastermind who sees how it all works, but because he's able to playtest, fix, and retest these cards until he's convinced that they work, they're fun, and they almost never break the game. (I say "almost never" because, hey, it's fun to break the game occasionally.)

47

Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: Best knight?

« on: August 18, 2012, 05:56:16 pm »

But the advantage to cantrip attacks is they're spammable. So uniqueness kind of cancels that out.

I'll grant you that.  But with Sir Bailey, you'll never have a collision.  You'll never have to make that wrenching decision: do I play my knight, or do I play my chancellor?  ( Kidding about that last part obviously, but you get my point.) That means that Sir Bailey will be played more than any of the terminal knights, making his attack more powerful.

48

Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: Best knight?

« on: August 18, 2012, 05:21:35 pm »

I think you guys are overestimating Sir Michael.  Remember how everybody hates Saboteur?  That's because Saboteur doesn't do anything for you -- it's just an attack, and a terminal at that.  I mean, the saboteur attack is at least as strong as the knight trashing attack, even with the consolation prize, because it guarantees a target and it has no upper limit.  It still ends being a trap most of the time.  If the saboteur gained a discard attack, sure, it would be stronger.  But would it be great?  I'm not sure about that.

Sir Bailey, on the other hand, is one of only two knights that is not a terminal.  The other one, with just +2 actions and no card draw, is also usually a trap, as we're all well aware.  But Sir Bailey is nonterminal and draws a card, so in my book, Sir Bailey stands tallest.

Think of it this way: how many cantrip attacks are there in Dominion?

49

Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: Best knight?

« on: August 18, 2012, 05:13:46 pm »

Transmutes aren't people.

Even if they can't talk and their gender doesn't match their sex, a human being is a human being.

That pun is awesome and you should feel awesome.

50

Goko Dominion Online / Re: Bonfire

« on: August 18, 2012, 04:57:54 pm »

If you think something is overpriced, don't buy it.

Or bitch about it until they lower the price.
Or both simultaneously.

Zing!