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Dominion General Discussion / Re: * Plunder Previews #4: Next Time *
« on: December 15, 2022, 01:08:35 pm »
So far my favorite Landing Party enabler is..Band of Misfits 
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Dominion General Discussion / Re: * Plunder Previews #2: Durations & Traits *
« on: December 15, 2022, 11:44:40 am »If your definition of Landscape is “a card-shaped element of the board that requires setup and is in landscape orientation,” I’m not going to sit here and say “akshually that’s not landscape orientation.”That's basically it -- because when we're talking about them the most salient thing about them is that they are part of the kingdom's setup and affect how it plays (either directly or indirectly through druid/liaisons). So I call them "setup landscapes" in a conversation like this one where we need to specifically exclude hexes, non-Druid boons, and artifacts, all of which don't involve setup decisions that affect how the kingdom and things in it play, they just need to be set up as available when things refer to them.
The per se landscape orientation is mainly for player convenience, so we don't confuse anything oriented this way with portrait ones that can be gained into decks.
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Dominion General Discussion / Re: * Plunder Previews #3: Loot *
« on: December 15, 2022, 10:39:45 am »
Prize Goat's trashing is nice but not that big of a deal, on average by the time you have more than a couple loots the game should be ending in like.. maybe 6-7 or so more turns? Give or take. So you'll play your early-ish Prize Goat maybe 3 times or so. Personally I don't think I've had a game yet where I play Prize Goat and trash more than twice--not saying getting more trashing benefit doesn't happen and that it might decide the game in some cases, for instance maybe heavy cursing with Haunted Woods and no other trashing, but it's far from typical for this to be the case.
The issue isn't specific Loots always being good or better than others, that's the wrong way to look at it -- it's getting the right one at the right time that's most helpful in that kingdom drawing it as reliable payload.
Loots aren't super powerful, but they are good enough (better than Gold) that you want some and yet they are also stop cards so if you don't build a reliable enough engine while also going for just the right amount of loots (and hopefully ones that are useful with the board), you end up significantly behind. And the fact that they usually have +buy or a gain makes for some rather unpredictable three-piling as well.
Part of this may be our inexperience with the new set's cards and the fact that Preview games are heavier on loot-using cards than will be the case in full random, but I'm seeing a lot of games with loot where one person gets 5+ loots and buys 3 provinces on consecutive turns (i.e. 6 provinces across 2 turns) when the other player has barely started greening yet, maybe has 2 loots and afforded a province or two. This happens all the time, a wide disparity in outcome that I just don't see as often in normal games and also don't see in Preview games that don't include loot.
Like I was saying we'll have to wait until the entire set has been out a bit and people are used to the new cards and mechanics, but my early take is that games with loot are disparate in their outcomes and basically Boon/Hexes on steroids in the extra unpredictable randomness they introduce, though of course they also add for interesting mechanics and unique abilities in a Black Market-esque way, just unfortunately not allowing for any of the same skill in adapting to them.
If there was a variant of Dominion geared towards more expert players with, say, two changes:
1) Loots, Boons, Hexes, and everything that refers to or uses them are removed from the game (except maybe Druid and its 3 random setup boons)
2) There's an even, 50/50 chance of Black Market being in the kingdom or not.
.. that would probably make for universally better games, at least for dominion.games rated players in the range of, uh, 55+
The issue isn't specific Loots always being good or better than others, that's the wrong way to look at it -- it's getting the right one at the right time that's most helpful in that kingdom drawing it as reliable payload.
Loots aren't super powerful, but they are good enough (better than Gold) that you want some and yet they are also stop cards so if you don't build a reliable enough engine while also going for just the right amount of loots (and hopefully ones that are useful with the board), you end up significantly behind. And the fact that they usually have +buy or a gain makes for some rather unpredictable three-piling as well.
Part of this may be our inexperience with the new set's cards and the fact that Preview games are heavier on loot-using cards than will be the case in full random, but I'm seeing a lot of games with loot where one person gets 5+ loots and buys 3 provinces on consecutive turns (i.e. 6 provinces across 2 turns) when the other player has barely started greening yet, maybe has 2 loots and afforded a province or two. This happens all the time, a wide disparity in outcome that I just don't see as often in normal games and also don't see in Preview games that don't include loot.
Like I was saying we'll have to wait until the entire set has been out a bit and people are used to the new cards and mechanics, but my early take is that games with loot are disparate in their outcomes and basically Boon/Hexes on steroids in the extra unpredictable randomness they introduce, though of course they also add for interesting mechanics and unique abilities in a Black Market-esque way, just unfortunately not allowing for any of the same skill in adapting to them.
If there was a variant of Dominion geared towards more expert players with, say, two changes:
1) Loots, Boons, Hexes, and everything that refers to or uses them are removed from the game (except maybe Druid and its 3 random setup boons)
2) There's an even, 50/50 chance of Black Market being in the kingdom or not.
.. that would probably make for universally better games, at least for dominion.games rated players in the range of, uh, 55+
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Dominion General Discussion / Re: * Plunder Previews #2: Durations & Traits *
« on: December 15, 2022, 09:30:24 am »
Why would I explain something that has nothing to do with what I've said? Explain it to yourself or someone earlier in the thread, since you appear to be arguing with them or yourself about that.
As for it being "categorically" possible for allies to affect the game without a liaison being played, it continues to be a moot point. It's (a) not the reason we refer to allies as being "landscapes", and (b) the rules are you only add one to the kingdom when there's a liaison anyway.
As for it being "categorically" possible for allies to affect the game without a liaison being played, it continues to be a moot point. It's (a) not the reason we refer to allies as being "landscapes", and (b) the rules are you only add one to the kingdom when there's a liaison anyway.
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Dominion General Discussion / Re: * Plunder Previews #4: Next Time *
« on: December 15, 2022, 08:04:14 am »Quote
Territory is the only non Action/Treasure card that can get caught up in Traits.Kinda unlucky being player 13-16 in a game with an Inherited clashes pile
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Dominion General Discussion / Re: * Plunder Previews #3: Loot *
« on: December 15, 2022, 05:16:09 am »
After playing a number of games, it seems to me the RNG of Loots is more impactful than that of, say, Hexes and Boons. I still think they are more like Black Market than Tournament prizes, but they are also even more Hexes/Boon-ish in their RNG.
Maybe they'll be more fun to play with overall (hard to say this early), but my point is the RNG is kind of crazy. I don't even mean who gets access to which ones, that's not even important usually, games don't last that long. The issue is how soon you're able to get them (without sacrificing too much opportunity cost to building the rest of your engine, since they're mostly a Payload) -- as well as which ones you get very early -- a deck can simply spiral very fast and leave the opponent's in the dust.
Obviously there's always been a randomness component to this game--shuffle luck, starting split and heirloom luck, etc, but what I am saying is Loots add on to that. Maybe you like them maybe you don't, but the people who dislike Hexes/Boons may end up disliking Loots even more than they dislike those, is my take, unless they really happen to enjoy the other (Black Market-esque) things Loots bring to the table even more.
Maybe they'll be more fun to play with overall (hard to say this early), but my point is the RNG is kind of crazy. I don't even mean who gets access to which ones, that's not even important usually, games don't last that long. The issue is how soon you're able to get them (without sacrificing too much opportunity cost to building the rest of your engine, since they're mostly a Payload) -- as well as which ones you get very early -- a deck can simply spiral very fast and leave the opponent's in the dust.
Obviously there's always been a randomness component to this game--shuffle luck, starting split and heirloom luck, etc, but what I am saying is Loots add on to that. Maybe you like them maybe you don't, but the people who dislike Hexes/Boons may end up disliking Loots even more than they dislike those, is my take, unless they really happen to enjoy the other (Black Market-esque) things Loots bring to the table even more.
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Dominion General Discussion / Re: * Plunder Previews #2: Durations & Traits *
« on: December 15, 2022, 04:24:13 am »
It doesn't make all Boons a setup landscape. Just the ones that get set aside during setup.
Other Fate cards not being able to trigger them normally since they won't be in the stack of boons is an impact, especially relevant for one like The Mountain'sCurse Gift which is more of a misnamed hex. Suddenly playing those Fate cards is safer and more useful than it otherwise would be. But regardless it's a distinction without a difference: an Ally when Liasons are a present and the Boons when Druid is present are all setup landscapes--even if Druid is the only Fate card or Liasons are the only thing they have an effect through (as is particularly the case with Allies that need more than one favor to ever do anything)
Quote
And again, those Boons can’t impact the game outside of Druid. Allies can impact the game even if you never touch a single Liaison in the kingdom.
Other Fate cards not being able to trigger them normally since they won't be in the stack of boons is an impact, especially relevant for one like The Mountain's
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Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: December 15, 2022, 03:54:05 am »
Silver Is The New Purple
$5 Action-Attack
You may trash a card from your hand. If you don't, gain a Silver to your hand. Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand trashes a card costing $3 or more, or reveals a hand with none. Each other player also gains a Silver to their discard.
$5 Action-Attack
You may trash a card from your hand. If you don't, gain a Silver to your hand. Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand trashes a card costing $3 or more, or reveals a hand with none. Each other player also gains a Silver to their discard.
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Dominion General Discussion / Re: * Plunder Previews #2: Durations & Traits *
« on: December 14, 2022, 08:26:28 pm »
Funny thing about Siren I don't think comes up much elsewhere: gaining to the top of your deck is different from putting something on top of your deck at the moment you gain it. And both are also different from something that first gains a card, then moves it (like Replace).
Topdecking as with Travelling Fair, Bauble, Tracker, Seal, Royal Seal, Insignia ::: Siren is gained to your discard, then optionally topdecked, so per the stop-moving rule it will fail to trash itself on-gain if it was moved.
Gaining to the top of your deck as with Develop, Armory ::: Siren is not moved after gaining, and so its on-gain is able to trash itself.
Gaining then after gain moving as with Replace ::: Siren's on-gain triggers before Replace proceeds to try and move it, so its on-gain trashing will happen.
Topdecking as with Travelling Fair, Bauble, Tracker, Seal, Royal Seal, Insignia ::: Siren is gained to your discard, then optionally topdecked, so per the stop-moving rule it will fail to trash itself on-gain if it was moved.
Gaining to the top of your deck as with Develop, Armory ::: Siren is not moved after gaining, and so its on-gain is able to trash itself.
Gaining then after gain moving as with Replace ::: Siren's on-gain triggers before Replace proceeds to try and move it, so its on-gain trashing will happen.
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Dominion General Discussion / Re: * Plunder Previews #2: Durations & Traits *
« on: December 14, 2022, 08:01:45 pm »
Indeed its 3 boons *are* relevant setup landscapes when Druid is on the board.
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Dominion General Discussion / Re: * Plunder Previews #2: Durations & Traits *
« on: December 14, 2022, 11:48:15 am »
Allies are a landscape because they affect what other cards in the kingdom, namely the Liasons, are good for. They have their own setup rule though, since they need a Liason to do meaningful work.
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Dominion General Discussion / Re: * Plunder Previews #2: Durations & Traits *
« on: December 14, 2022, 08:46:11 am »
"Lose track" isn't a rule anymore. Stop moving is. Because it was gained to your hand, its play couldn't cause it to do something further to itself from its an own on gain ability, like say trash itself (which is relevant for a card like Siren), but Stowaway doesn't have such an own on gain ability.
Yet, the Stowaway now in your hand is also a reaction. It can now proceed to react to a gain that occurred, because that reaction doesn't care where the card it's reacting to was gained to (or whether it's itself). It's just like Sheepdog.
Yet, the Stowaway now in your hand is also a reaction. It can now proceed to react to a gain that occurred, because that reaction doesn't care where the card it's reacting to was gained to (or whether it's itself). It's just like Sheepdog.
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Dominion General Discussion / Re: * Plunder Previews #3: Loot *
« on: December 14, 2022, 08:24:01 am »
Loot's effects on the game seem more like Black Market than Tournament prizes to me.
Now that we know what loots are and how strong they are individually (Gold+, not Spoils-like nor Silvers with abilities), I still wonder what the $7 King's Cache is. A treasure that gains a loot to hand? Possibly loot OR a treasure? Playing a treasure 3 times a la King's Court seems less likely to me now, but still plausible. It could even be a duration loot gainer if the set needs that, though I would think there's a different card for that.
Now that we know what loots are and how strong they are individually (Gold+, not Spoils-like nor Silvers with abilities), I still wonder what the $7 King's Cache is. A treasure that gains a loot to hand? Possibly loot OR a treasure? Playing a treasure 3 times a la King's Court seems less likely to me now, but still plausible. It could even be a duration loot gainer if the set needs that, though I would think there's a different card for that.
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Dominion General Discussion / Re: * Plunder Previews #2: Durations & Traits *
« on: December 13, 2022, 05:48:59 pm »
Landscape just means horizontal orientation, i.e. aligned with the horizon line. So, you know, whatever word you like best.
The fact that Boons, Hexes, Artifacts, States are also horizontal isn't interesting to me, but apparently someone cares and needs a way to exclude those, because reasons.
The fact that Boons, Hexes, Artifacts, States are also horizontal isn't interesting to me, but apparently someone cares and needs a way to exclude those, because reasons.
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Dominion General Discussion / Re: * Plunder Previews #2: Durations & Traits *
« on: December 13, 2022, 11:19:30 am »Quote
what do you do if a Trait is randomly chosen for your Kingdom, but your Kingdom does not contain any action or treasure piles?Your Kingdom is broken, return it to the store.
More seriously, the general rule in Dominion is that when you can't do something you fail to do it and move on.
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Dominion General Discussion / Re: * Plunder Previews #2: Durations & Traits *
« on: December 13, 2022, 07:23:16 am »Stowaway is a Duration card that cares about Duration cards [..] They'll stow away on anything - a Merchant Ship, a Barge, even a Swamp Hag.
Most simply your own gain of a second (and more) Stowaways. They're friendly like that.
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Dominion General Discussion / Re: Dominion: Plunder Teaser
« on: December 12, 2022, 06:31:42 pm »
Deduction from the order of the encrypted card data in the teaser quiz and what we know of the total number of cards and today's previews, people were talking about it on reddit
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Dominion General Discussion / Re: Dominion: Plunder Teaser
« on: December 12, 2022, 05:36:58 pm »
Eh we have a good idea what the 30 landscapes are...the 15 events, and most likely the 15 traits.
$2 Cage, Grotto, Jewelled Egg, Search, Shaman
$3 Secluded Shrine, Siren, Stowaway, Taskmaster
$4 Abundance, Cabin Boy, Crucible, Flagship, Fortune Hunter, Gondola, Harbor Village, Landing Party, Mapmaker, Maroon, Rope, Swamp Shacks, Tools
$5 Buried Treasure, Crew, Cutthroat, Enlarge, Figurine, First Mate, Frigate, Longship, Mining Road, Pendant, Pickaxe, Pilgrim, Quartermaster, Silver Mine, Trickster, Wealthy Village
$6 Sack of Loot
$7 King's Cache
Traits (landscapes): Cheap, Cursed, Fated, Fawning, Friendly, Hasty, Inherited, Inspiring, Nearby, Patient, Pious, Reckless, Rich, Shy, Tireless,
Events (landscapes):
$1 Bury
$2 Avoid, Deliver, Peril, Rush
$3 Foray, Launch, Mirror, Prepare, Scrounge
$4 Journey, Maelstrom
At least $5: Looting
At least $6: Invasion, Prosper
Loots (probably 2 copies of each for 30 total cards): Amphora, Doubloons, Endless Chalice, Figurehead, Hammer, Insignia, Jewels, Orb, Prize Goat, Puzzle Box, Sextant, Shield, Spell Scroll, Staff, Sword
$2 Cage, Grotto, Jewelled Egg, Search, Shaman
$3 Secluded Shrine, Siren, Stowaway, Taskmaster
$4 Abundance, Cabin Boy, Crucible, Flagship, Fortune Hunter, Gondola, Harbor Village, Landing Party, Mapmaker, Maroon, Rope, Swamp Shacks, Tools
$5 Buried Treasure, Crew, Cutthroat, Enlarge, Figurine, First Mate, Frigate, Longship, Mining Road, Pendant, Pickaxe, Pilgrim, Quartermaster, Silver Mine, Trickster, Wealthy Village
$6 Sack of Loot
$7 King's Cache
Traits (landscapes): Cheap, Cursed, Fated, Fawning, Friendly, Hasty, Inherited, Inspiring, Nearby, Patient, Pious, Reckless, Rich, Shy, Tireless,
Events (landscapes):
$1 Bury
$2 Avoid, Deliver, Peril, Rush
$3 Foray, Launch, Mirror, Prepare, Scrounge
$4 Journey, Maelstrom
At least $5: Looting
At least $6: Invasion, Prosper
Loots (probably 2 copies of each for 30 total cards): Amphora, Doubloons, Endless Chalice, Figurehead, Hammer, Insignia, Jewels, Orb, Prize Goat, Puzzle Box, Sextant, Shield, Spell Scroll, Staff, Sword
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Dominion General Discussion / Re: * Plunder Previews #1: Treasures & Events *
« on: December 12, 2022, 01:54:58 pm »
Combine that with a few highways or even just a quarry/ferry and you can practically have one Mining Road in play to pile out the rest
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Dominion General Discussion / Re: * Plunder Previews #1: Treasures & Events *
« on: December 12, 2022, 11:16:36 am »
House setup rule for Bury:
If Pearl Diver is available and hasn't been placed in your local landfill yet, add it as an 11th kingdom pile.
If Pearl Diver is available and hasn't been placed in your local landfill yet, add it as an 11th kingdom pile.
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Dominion General Discussion / Re: * Plunder Previews #1: Treasures & Events *
« on: December 12, 2022, 09:19:44 am »
Nah, too complicated. If the goal were to avoid this type of pin you'd much sooner replace "draws" with "may draw" on Council Room.
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Dominion General Discussion / Re: * Plunder Previews #1: Treasures & Events *
« on: December 12, 2022, 07:36:15 am »
If your deck is good enough to afford one of them, your deck is good enough to most often have one in play when you play Tools.
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Dominion General Discussion / Re: * Plunder Previews #1: Treasures & Events *
« on: December 12, 2022, 05:39:01 am »
My first game was with Tools, Mining Road, and Collection. Casual 146 VP three-pile by turn 15
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Dominion General Discussion / Re: A Dominion: Plunder story by ChatGPT
« on: December 12, 2022, 02:44:40 am »
> Write a story about pirates and plunder that includes [..all the card names..]
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Dominion General Discussion / Re: Dominion: Plunder Teaser
« on: December 10, 2022, 01:45:56 pm »
Loot seems like it might be like the Ruins pile, with 2 copies of each (30 total). Depending on how strong they are, playing a loot might return it like Spoils.
King's Cache seems like a 7 cost that either gains 3 loots or lets you play one or a treasure multiple times, like some combination of King's Court and Crown. Sack of Loot can be a 6 cost that does something similar and puts them on your deck or gains fewer to hand.
Of the 15 loots, Doubloons might give coffers, Hammer can be a gainer, Insignia probably topdecks although maybe throne, Prize Goat trashes, Sextant sifts from top of deck, Orb could look at top of deck and play or trash. Not sure which sifts from hand, maybe Amphora or Endless Chalice. Figurehead is VP maybe? Shield is a duration that blocks attacks? If Insignia topdecks then Jewels thrones? Spell Scroll sounds like a duration. I'd expect something to set aside (like Gear) but hard to guess which
King's Cache seems like a 7 cost that either gains 3 loots or lets you play one or a treasure multiple times, like some combination of King's Court and Crown. Sack of Loot can be a 6 cost that does something similar and puts them on your deck or gains fewer to hand.
Of the 15 loots, Doubloons might give coffers, Hammer can be a gainer, Insignia probably topdecks although maybe throne, Prize Goat trashes, Sextant sifts from top of deck, Orb could look at top of deck and play or trash. Not sure which sifts from hand, maybe Amphora or Endless Chalice. Figurehead is VP maybe? Shield is a duration that blocks attacks? If Insignia topdecks then Jewels thrones? Spell Scroll sounds like a duration. I'd expect something to set aside (like Gear) but hard to guess which