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76

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Outpost + Lich

« on: March 06, 2022, 03:35:18 am »

That "last turn they do anything" seems to be a simplification, because extra turn generating effects have to work outside of a turn. I gave my "current understanding" in the post above yours.

"The last turn that they do something" is the literal text of the rules, though. I don't follow your argument—what stops them from being discarded at the end of the turn you play them?

What stops Outpost from being discarded the turn you play it (if it "activates", that means if all the conditions to create an extra turn are true)? By the rule you quoted, it would always be discarded the turn you play it, which makes it quite a strange duration card.

On another point of view, thinking about "when will this be discarded" from a strict rules standpoint is the wrong idea, IMO. The general rule is that everything is discarded during Cleanup, but there are exceptions. For Durations, the exception can be formulated as "If it has things left to do after this turn." Since only very few cards do things between turns, this is equivalent to "It will be discarded on the last turn it did something." for almost all durations cards. But for Voyage and Outpost, it is not equivalent.

Agan, this is my understanding of how this works, which explains all the rulings that I'm aware of.

77

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Outpost + Lich

« on: March 05, 2022, 02:44:33 pm »

That "last turn they do anything" seems to be a simplification, because extra turn generating effects have to work outside of a turn. I gave my "current understanding" in the post above yours.

78

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion

« on: March 05, 2022, 02:41:35 pm »

I take it you can't use Order of Masons during game setup? 

Correct, you can't. This expressively mentioned in the rulebook.

79

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Outpost + Lich

« on: March 05, 2022, 02:34:06 pm »

My current understanding is that Outpost (and Voyage) have both one thing left to do that keeps them in play: To create their respective extra turns. Normally, once they are created, the extra turns are taken and thus Outpost/Voyage get discarded during that turn's cleanup.

Now with Lich also played, it means the extra turn is created, but then skipped. So LastFootnote is AFAIK correct: The Outpost/Voyage have nothing left to do at this point, so will be discarded during Cleanup of the next turn that actually happens. That will often be your opponent's next normal turn, but could be another extra turn of you, if you had multiple efffects creating extra turns (relatively easy with Voyage).

80

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Allies Preview 5: More Cards

« on: March 04, 2022, 09:58:08 am »

I was wondering, why does Royal Galley need "if you did," now that we have rule saying that a card can't be played if it's lost track of?
Royal Galley seems to be a Throne Room variant, rules-wise: it plays a card several times. There are two rules for TR variants:
When you play a Duration, leave the TR in play in Clean-up if the Duration is still in play. Doesn't matter here, since Royal Galley can't play Durations.
You can play the card twice, even if the TR loses track of it. (According to the new rule.) It seems this would be possible if Royal Galley didn't have the "if you did" clause. So that must be the answer.

Correct. Contrary to "usual" Throne Room variants, we want Royal Galley to play the card a second time only if it's where it is supposed to be. Since there don't exist cards that could move the played card after it was set aside, the check after that move is sufficient for that.

81

Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: Miller Error

« on: March 03, 2022, 12:56:33 pm »

Thanks for the report!

82

Rules Questions / Re: Gatekeeper exiled Experiment

« on: January 30, 2022, 03:43:47 am »

I think there is difference to Jeebus' examples and those from DaveS.

In Jeebus' examples it was always additional effects that created (in case of Hireling) or made applicable (in case of Goons) triggered abilities that apply to an event to which triggers are currently handled. That is not the case for DaveS' example. There is no "new" Exile mat, or exile mat ability. The exile mat was there the whole time and it didn't have a triggered ability created or removed.

So to me the idea to apply the exile mat ability again is the same as applying any other "non-new, non-changed" triggered ability again. I played a Livery, then gain a Gold. I get one Horse from Livery, not more because I'd like to apply Livery's ability again. That in DaveS's example the circumstances changed such that applying the ability again would have a different effect is IMO no reason to allow anything special here.

83

Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: Help! Site frozen with "reconnecting"

« on: January 22, 2022, 03:06:41 am »

I can't even figure out how to contact Support to report this.

In the registration email there should have been links to the support forum at

http://forum.shuffleit.nl

and to the support discord server

https://discord.gg/SkauhYw

Mic already gave the correct answer, though I wonder why different browsers haven't worked, because they usually don't share their cookies.

84

Rules Questions / Re: Citadel and Enchantress

« on: January 21, 2022, 02:19:33 am »

I don't mind which way Citadel / Enchantress goes. Without thinking that through though, I can tell you that that Citadel has some other problem Ingix found, and the planned new wording is:

Citadel: Project, $8
The first time you play an Action card during each of your turns, replay it afterwards.

So Ingix found a problem in addition to the Captain problem I found? Can I read that somewhere?

So this is functionally the same as it was, right? (The only difference is "replay it" vs. "play it again".)

Does this mean you're changing the new "playing card" rule a la what I suggested in the Captain thread?

No, I didn't find another problem (he may be remembering some objections I found to another rewording that was discussed, but never made it to the public). The main thing with the second new wording (above) is that "replay" (in my understanding) is supposed to become a keyword that, like Throne-likes, will be exempt from the "card must be where the playing effect expects it to be" rule.

Only Royal Carriage and Scepter use that word right now, and then Citadel will. Royal Carriage and Scepter have wordings that spell out the additional condition that the card must still be in play, so the special exemption for replay will not change them. Citadel's above wording does not have such text, so it can successfully replay a Horse, for example.

85

Rules Questions / Re: Coffers Rules Change

« on: January 17, 2022, 11:48:02 am »

Before, the two subphases were "get coins" (play Treasures and spend Coffers tokens) and "use coins" (buy things and pay off Debt).

I don't think this is right? You can pay off Debt before playing Treasures if you choose.

No, this is actually correct, as per the rules in the Empires rulebook:

A player removes Debt tokens in the player's Buy phase by paying $1 per Debt token to remove it; this is done after playing Treasures, but can be done both before and after buying cards.

dominion.games allows you pay off debt before, which may make it easier to do calculations in your head, but also has very little effect on what can actually happen, because you generally use/spend $ only by buying things.

86

Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: Game frozen after undoing mid-masquerade

« on: January 12, 2022, 01:33:35 am »

Sure sounds like a bug. Right now, when loading the game it is at the start, not anywhere near what you describe, but with bugs that may happen. I think one of the problems with Masquerade/undo is that it is one of the few cases where several players have to make a decision at the same time, so an undo might be more complicated, but that's just a guess.

87

Rules Questions / Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn

« on: January 02, 2022, 05:59:50 am »

That would be a clearly stated rule separating the two types of abilities. But I still don't see any actual reason for why those two would behave differently in the trigger window. As noted above, Donald also expressed they would be the same back in February. Do you have a link to this explanation?

No, this is my interpretation, that I came up with, looking at the different rulings presented here. Nothing that Donald X. said, just trying to make sense of for myself.

As for the "actual reason for why those two would behave differently"? I've seen this happen several times in Magic 25 years ago. Some arcane rules interaction gets a ruling. More expansion come out, similar interactions increase in number. Then at some point a new "enabler" appears, that makes the interaction more common and the ruling now is contrary to "common sense" and what most players would expect. The ruling gets changed/amended.

The enabler here was Innovation, enabling a card to be played while still in it's "when-gain" window. The Livery-Innovation example is possibly what made the previous ruling paradoxical in the eyes of players: The Livery is played and sets up a "for the rest of this turn" trigger condition, that (under the rules as communicated before) is now applied to a time when that effect clearly couldn't have existed: when that Livery had just been gained.

That does make a compelling argument to reverse the ruling in that case. How that generalizes, is again my idea is presented above.

88

Rules Questions / Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn

« on: January 01, 2022, 05:35:56 am »

From my interpretation, any trigger coming from an on-play ability, like Livery, cannot be applied retroactivly. Since on-play abilities that do something over a duration need to state that duration, that will usually be recognizable by a "this turn" phrase.

Any trigger stated on a "below the line" ability (like Haggler, Duplicate, etc.) can be applied retroactively (if it becomes available in the trigger window). That means a Haggler that comes into play inside a "When you buy" trigger window would allow (even require) it's abilitiy to be used. AFAIK, it has also been ruled that if the Haggler is in play when a card buy happens but leaves play during that window, it's ability also has to be applied. Both things together sound a bit contradictory, but that's what I understand.

Again, this is an interpretation and generalization of what Donald X. said.

89

Rules Questions / Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn

« on: December 30, 2021, 01:13:43 am »

Is there anything out there to test these scenarios? Also wondering how to design the algorithm to allow the Sheepdog drawing Sheepdog case but not these other cases.

Most people will use dominion.games as their reference. Though in this case, it gets it wrong. I tested Forager trashing card, discarding Market Square to gain Gold, play Sheepdog off the gain using Way of the Mouse as Vassal, playing Priest. Priest gives you +$2 for the Forager trashing.

The reason is that in the beginning the emphasis was put on the "opposite direction", cases with Sheepdog drawing Sheepdog, or cards that have "While this is in play" triggered abilities where this kind of counterintuitive trick is supposed to work. For example, with one Haggler in play, you can buy a Gold. This allows you to use the Haggler to gain a cheaper card, say... a Haggler! If you have Innovation in play, you may be able to play it, right now. You are now supposed to get another card cheaper than Gold for the "new" Haggler. That's something many people would not guess immediately.

So in my view, the situation is "not neat". You have the Reactions cards you play (or reveal) from hand, where (in some sense) you have to allow a Sheepdog drawn from a triggered Sheepdog to be also played, because often other players can't know if you just drew it or not. It's different for "all in the open" cards like Haggler + Innovation and Livery + Innovation. That these combos work differently (you get to use the second Haggler with the previous buy but don't gain a Horse from Livery's own gain) is "not neat". Neither situation is IMO "natural" or easy to understand. That there are now different rules for these cases I consider unfortunate.

But, I think the distinction between them is clear enough that it can be implemented in dominion.games.

90

Rules Questions / Re: Coffers Rules Change

« on: November 27, 2021, 05:51:06 am »

Dominion players (at least the one posting online) seem to like power. So they don't like their Throne Rooms not working with Highways (in the "reduce costs by $2" sense) or Goons (in the "give me 2VP per bought card" sense). And with more expansions coming out, Procession seems to be the odd one out of the "Throne Room"-likes.

Ways are another case where the "artificial" split between a card's abilities becomes visible: Way a Goon, and you still get the "VP per bought card" effect, but without the $2, +Buy and opponent's discard. It's kinda the opposite to Throne Room.

91

Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: Bug that has locked me out of the game

« on: September 28, 2021, 02:41:50 am »

Yes, unfortunately that is one of the few "known" ways to get the Spinning Castle problem (with the "connected to gameserver" message).

If that happens again to you for whatever reason, open dominion.games either in a different browser, or in a private/incognito tab. That will prevent you from being automatically logged in. Enter your name and password, but do not click "Login". Instead, click on "Kick" or "Kick and Resign" in the small print below the "Login" and "Sign Up" buttons.

Then you can go back to your normal browser and log in as usual, you were kicked out the game you were in and can start a new one.

92

Rules Questions / Re: Noble Brigand: Do Its Attack - gain the trashed cards?

« on: August 07, 2021, 02:22:32 am »

Yes it is.

93

Rules Questions / Re: Visit (2017 Holiday Kingdom) + Masquerade?

« on: July 23, 2021, 02:37:57 pm »

Interesting. So they get their turn while you resolve Visit? And how are they affected by attacks, are they affected at all?

94

Rules Questions / Re: Visit (2017 Holiday Kingdom) + Masquerade?

« on: July 22, 2021, 04:41:28 pm »

In my understanding, Relatives are full players the moment Visit is in the Supply, and take turns from the start of the game. Visit just grants them extra turns.

But I see that the interpretation that they only take turns when a Visit was played is also very compelling.

95

Rules Questions / Re: Visit (2017 Holiday Kingdom) + Masquerade?

« on: July 22, 2021, 01:25:41 pm »

Sure they pass cards (if they have some in hand), why wouldn't they?

I don't think this is right. Masquerade passes cards to the "next player"; the Relative isn't a player.

What do you think the relative is, for the game rules? It isn't spelled out on the card, but what other interpretation is there than that it is a fake player that is controlled by you (just as you control another player during a Possession turn). If it isn't a player, what is the phrase "You play for them,..." supposed to mean?

96

Rules Questions / Re: Visit (2017 Holiday Kingdom) + Masquerade?

« on: July 22, 2021, 12:51:42 pm »

Sure they pass cards (if they have some in hand), why wouldn't they?

And player order is of course relevant for many things, not jut Masquerade. The details are not mentioned on the card, so that has to be decided by the "real" players.

97

Rules Questions / Re: The new rule for playing cards: A card's own play ability

« on: July 13, 2021, 05:02:04 am »

I'd say you still fully resolve it. The main point of the new rule is that the effect that plays the Crown can "find" it in order to (usually) put it into play. This has happenend in the example. That it is then gone relatively fast is IMO of no consequence.

98

Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: Rank no longer updating?

« on: June 24, 2021, 02:30:18 am »

Sorry for my lack of response in time. This was a new kind of problem, where a restart of the relevant server/service did not last for 1-2 month, as before, but just 5-10  minutes, as the developer said. This seems to be fixed now since the last ca. 40+h, and the hope is that this will again prove to be stable.

99

Rules Questions / Re: Throne Room + Durable Mouse

« on: June 14, 2021, 03:21:29 am »

I had an interesting case crop up last week where Way of the Mouse was in the kingdom and its card was Cargo Ship. Presumably if I play a village and then two different cards (say two copies of Pawn) in one turn, each as Way of the Mouse (Cargo Ship) and later in the turn gain a card to store on a Cargo Ship, I would pick one of the two different Pawns to put it on, and it would stay in play but the other one wouldn't?

Right. If it was real Cargo Ships you played, one would have stayed out, the other would have been discarded during Cleanup. That's exactly what happens to the Pawns, one stays out, one gets discarded. So its version (2) of what AJD said.

For similar cards like Overlord or Band of Misfits that helps with the tracking, you only need to remember what you played with them, but don't need to remember if you played the exact same copy of a card twice, or different copies. Say you use 2 Overlords to play Gear, and at Cleanup you see you have a Workshop played between them, but don't remember what you gained with that Workshop. Using version (2) makes sure you don't need to know if it was a Gear or not, the Overlords stay in play or are discarded only based on what their play did. So the Overlord(s) with cards under them stay in play, if no cards are under them, they are discarded. Note this gets more complicated if an Overlord is played mutliple times.

Note that this has nothing to do with Throne Room and similar cards. "Play but leave it there" cards (like Overlord, Necromancer or cards played using Way of the Mouse) follow another set of rules, as AJD explained.

100

Rules Questions / Re: Someone else's Inheritance

« on: June 11, 2021, 04:30:56 am »

Inheritance: Event, $7
Once per game: Set aside a non-Command Action card from the Supply costing up to $4. Move your Estate token to it. (During your turns, Estates are also Actions with "Play the card with your Estate token, leaving it there.")

(b) happens.

Your Inheritance effect gives the same ability to all Estates on your turns, but when your opponent plays one of theirs in the way you described, the "your" in the ability refers to them, not you. So if they inherited something themselves, the Estate will play that card. If not, the effect will do nothing, as there is no such card as required.