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251

Rules Questions / Princing a Traveller

« on: February 23, 2019, 05:33:48 am »

This question is to confirm the root error in a bug in Dominion Online.

If you Prince a Traveller, and it gets played next turn and it is then discarded at end of turn from play, two things should trigger

• Prince wants to set the Traveller aside.
• The Traveller optionally can to exchanged for the next higher version (we assume that the exchange is chosen).

I think that whichever effects gets executed first, will prevent the other from doing anything. If the Traveller is first (re)set aside with Prince, the exchange effect can't find it. OTOH, if the Traveller is first exchanged, Prince has no card to set aside.

Is that assessment correct?

252

Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: BoM + Mining Village bug? game #23794656

« on: February 22, 2019, 02:24:50 am »

Right, that's a new bug that seems to have crept in, it's been reported one or two weeks before the first time.

253

Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: Possible Lighthouse glitch

« on: February 14, 2019, 10:14:10 am »

I agree with Rabid, that the Diplomat effect (which includes discarding 3 cards, the usual amount for Margrave discards) probably is what you mistook for the Margrave effect. I looked at the log and for example the Margrave draw for the other players (you, when opponent plays it) is never listed for you when you were protected by Lighthouse.

254

Rules Questions / Re: Crossroads & Citadel

« on: February 05, 2019, 04:04:19 am »

You are right, that behavior is incorrect. Throne Room + Crossroads is correctly implemented online (+3 Actions is executed only once), but Citadel + Crossroads gives +6 Actions alltogether, which is incorrect.

255

Rules Questions / Re: Road Network and timing

« on: January 24, 2019, 04:32:35 am »

I'm not aquainted with the history of all the rulings, but isn't the blatantly obvious difference between buying Noble Brigant and triggering your opponent's Road Network that the former involves an effect that belongs to you (you bought Noble Brigand), while the latter involves an effect that belongs to your opponent(s) (they bought the Road Network)?

But I agree with Jeebus that something is incosistent: Swamp Hag played and Road Network bought (by the same player) ought to work the same. If player X does something to trigger player Y's Swamp Hag in situation A, and later something to trigger Y's Road Network in situation B, the triggered abilities should belong to (and be ordered by) the same player. I don't particularly care at the moment if it should be X or Y.

256

Rules Questions / Re: Innovation and Haggler

« on: January 24, 2019, 04:06:33 am »

Yes, the trigger time could have been one point. This would mean that nothing more can trigger in the "window". It would mean that if you Secret Chamber into a Moat, you can't reveal the Moat.

Again, let me stress for everbody that this is a moot point and 'alternate reality' I'm discussing here. It's accepted that if you use Lurker to trash a Hunting Grounds from the suplly into the trash, it's ability triggers. Now I'm claiming that in my model, when a player plays an attack, every Moat and Secret Chamber triggers. The one in your hand, the one in my hand, the ones in the supply, the trash and the decks. That means, if you Secret Chamber into a Moat, it has triggered and you can reveal it from your hand. The fact that all the other Moats triggered is generally irrelevant, as you cannot do the trigger effect of revealing it from your hand.

And if you think about the above Lurker/Hunting Grounds example, where the Hunting Grounds triggered in the supply pile, I don't see this model as anything totally new.

It wouldn't change much, like the Ghost playing Ratcatcher would still give you an immediately usable Ratcatcher (it triggered at start of turn in the set aside zone). The thing it would not allow are those "While this is in play"-triggers: If you gain an Estate-Gardener and play it immediately with Innovation, it doesn't trigger on itself, because it wasn't in play when it was gained.

Again, this is an alternate world and not how it actually works (to make sure nobody misunderstands this).

257

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Which cards let you choose to gain nothing?

« on: January 23, 2019, 05:58:18 am »

If you consider Pilgrimmage, I don't understand why you think Mint is different. Each one lets's you select a card from a certain zone and allows you to gain a copy of it, which may not be possible. What is the difference between buying Pilgrimmage with Diadem and any number of Heirlooms in play, or playing Mint and those same Diadem and Heirlooms in hand?  The 3 cards on Pilgrimmage can't really be the difference, because it doesn't add anything, just makes the effect 3 times as big.

258

Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: Monastery + Sewers

« on: January 23, 2019, 04:51:50 am »

Also looked at the game, and couldn't see a problem.

Turn 9 you opted to trash the Copper in hand for Monastery, and then the game on replay gave me (and I assume you) the option to trash the Jester in hand via Sewers (which I assume you declined). If you had used Monastery to trash a Copper from play instead, the game would have offered you to trash the Copper in hand via Sewers, which I assume you would have taken.

In the other cases, as Rabid said, you simply didn't have cards in hand.

259

Rules Questions / Re: Innovation and Haggler

« on: January 23, 2019, 04:17:01 am »

The argument I have against the 'naturalness' of the 'period of time'-ruling is that there could be a conceptual difference between the time something triggers ("When you buy...", "At start of your turn...") and the time those triggers are handled. The handling obviously needs to be serialized, but IMO nothing prevents the trigger time to be exactly one point. But of course it is a moot point, it just so happens that your numerous new cases with Innovation, coupled with "While this is in play" effects, strike me as really 'forced'. But I guess everybody has different interactions that they think are natural or not.

260

Rules Questions / Re: Innovation and Haggler

« on: January 17, 2019, 09:45:00 am »

@Jeebus: It takes IMO a very strong sense of "knowing what should happen" to argue the way you do *from the card text*. Donald X. has clarified the rules in another post that it is as you described (even stronger in the case of the 'coming and going in a heartbeat' Merchant's Guild), that still doesn't bridge the gap between text and the way it 'really works'.

What has unfortunately happened is that the "corner case" of revealing Reactions from hand has required the introduction of a 'window of opportunities' (never AFAIK in the actual rules) for all triggered effects. The fact that those rulings are uphelp (which is consistent, of course) does not diminish the fact that the wording is still hihgly misleading on them, like in this case. While arguments have been made that "beginning of turn" is a period of time instead of a point in time, this breaks down for other cases like this when buying is involved.

So you are correct in describing how the card works, but deriving that from the card text also is nigh impossible.

261

Rules Questions / Re: Innovation and Haggler

« on: January 12, 2019, 10:43:09 am »

Good question. The "next time" formulation makes it tricky, but I'd say that if you actually buy a card from the Black Market it would apply to that buy. If you don't, it would be applicable to the Duchy buy, so allowing you to gain another $5 cost card.

262

Rules Questions / Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs

« on: January 09, 2019, 12:59:42 pm »

(NB: I'm not actually asking for an answer to this specific question, just illustrating how messed-up the questions are becoming, these days.)

The best way to deal with this IMO is to take things step by step. Figure out what each card is at any given moment (name, abilities, types). Find out which things trigger when, exactly (so you don't mix "on-buy" triggers with "on-gain" ones, for example). Make sure you know the timing rules (easier said then done  ).

Generally, card wordings refer to the "current state" of a card (itself or another), with minimal exceptions (I mentioned Ritual, Jeebus added Treasure Map).

Triggers conditions are, for various reasons, checked again after one triggered ability of the same exact same conditon has been handled. This may allow things to trigger that couldn't before (the 'classic' example is to reveal Secret Chamber to put a Moat from your deck into your hand, then reveal that Moat, then (optionally) reveal the Secret Chamber again to put the Moat back on top of the deck).
Anything on a trigger that is not the trigger condition is only cheched when it resolved/you choose to resolve it. You can buy/gain an Emporium with 4 Actions in play, but call a Duplicate (putting the Duplicate in play) first (gaining another Emporium) and get the +2VP for each Emporium (because you have 5 Actions cards in play now, including the Duplicate).

With 'morphing' cards (inherited Estates, Band of Misfits, Overlord) the IMO most important thing to know is that the rules consider for on-buy, on-gain, on-trash triggers the state when the card is 'yours', that is after the transition for on-buy and on-gain, while before the transition for on-trash.

What these "corner cases" boil down to is the application of *many* things is a short time frame, so why each detail is not that complicated in itself, it's getting everything right that is the problem.

263

Rules Questions / Re: Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs

« on: January 08, 2019, 03:29:57 am »

I know for other cards like Remodel, it has been ruled that there's a difference between "it cost" and "it costs".

As far as I'm aware, Ritual is the only effect that actually uses the past tense and refering to "it cost". So this seems to be a one-off, not a division between 2 different lines of similar effects.

264

Rules Questions / Re: Band of Misfits and Talisman

« on: January 07, 2019, 05:37:00 am »

I agree. The the second card being gained is the original card bought, and that was a BoM. The player should gain a BoM (assuming there is still one in the pile). And I can confirm that Dominion Online handles this as Jeebus described (so incorrectly IMO).

265

Rules Questions / Re: [Solved]What if the Copper pile runs out?

« on: January 04, 2019, 09:53:08 am »

Take a look at a part named "Common terms used on Action cards" (starts on page 6 of the rulebook and is on white background) it says:

"+$X " – the player has X number of additional coins to spend in the Buy
phase. The player does not take additional Treasure cards for these coins.

(emphasis mine)

266

Rules Questions / Re: What if the Copper pile runs out?

« on: January 04, 2019, 03:42:30 am »

Welcome to Dominion!

Piles running out is a normal feature of  a Dominion game. It happens to Kingdom piles regularly (those where there are 10 cards of in the pile), and occasionally also to the basic Treasure piles like Copper (as in your case), Silver or Gold. It's even part of a game ending condition (3 piles running out). In that case, an instruction to gain a card of such a pile is ignored and doesn't happen.

But, your remark "(like market, for instance)" shows that you made a mistake (that probably lead to the Copper pile runinng out): Market does not say you gain a Copper, it says to add $1 (the usual text representation used for 1 coin symbol) to your current turn's 'money account'.

You can think of the game as having a money account for you (and others), that gets emptied at the start of a turn. If you play a Copper, $1 is added to it, similar $2 is added from a Silver and $3 from a Gold. It is from that money account that you pay for your cards when you buy them, not directly from the Copper or Silver. Similiarly, when you play Market, you draw a card, then your Action account is incremented by 1 Action (thats one of the other accounts I talked about above), then your Buy account is incremented by 1 Buy (yet another account) and finally your money account is increased by $1. No Copper changes hands for this! Similiarly, a Milita doesn't give you a Silver, it adds $2 to your money account.

In the base game, you can usually easily calculate how much money you have available by looking at the cards in play. But be aware of Throne Room, which may 'double' the effect of a card. In later expansions there exist cards that make this account system necessary, because cards from play can go elsewhere, so the simple "look at what you have in play" wouldn't work any more.

Again, welcome to Dominion and have fun playing!

267

Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: Dominion Scavenger is Back

« on: December 26, 2018, 04:17:17 am »

Scavanger shows player names, their ratings parameters, the result and the game number.
It doesn't show kingdom or deck composition over time as the Woodcutter tool.

268

Rules Questions / Re: Clean-up order of operations

« on: December 13, 2018, 04:47:38 pm »

Encampment potentially also does something at the start of Cleanup, but this rarely interacts with the other effects (you might want to put it on its pile on top of a Plunder before Improving a Poor House, for example).

I think the best order is Encampments, then Improve then Walled Village.

Innovation might mix this up, if the Improved card can be played, but I can't come up with a scenario where this makes Walled Village after Improve/Innovation not topdeckable when it was before.

269

Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: Missing auto-plays

« on: November 28, 2018, 04:02:11 am »

All the Travelers have autoplay options, so you can do that manually. Just right-click the card and set the autoplay to "Don't exchange". I routinely do that for Disciple, for example, which gets changed to "Don't exchange" after the first Teacher has been 'gained'.

About the log messages: This is a typical human/computer difference thing. For a human, it is of course clear that the top card is a Silver in that case. The human brain remembers that and it's actually hard to 'forget'. But for the computer, the part that deals with generating log messages is seperated from the part that actually has to remember which cards are where, so remembering which cards a player 'already knows' (and should be named in plain text) vs. the ones they don't would be extra effort.

270

Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: Any Time I select Renaissance cards I get "More Cards Required Than Available"

« on: November 22, 2018, 04:38:45 am »

@Honkeyfresh: Did you actually buy Renaissance (check at the Account tab)? If yes, then Kieran's answer is probably correct.

271

Dominion League / Re: Season 31 - Signups

« on: November 19, 2018, 12:42:05 pm »

Dom-Online: Ingix
time zone: Europe/Berlin
Discord: @Ingix#4543
Last season: 29, E16, placed 3rd out of 5

272

Rules Questions / Re: Black Market/Storyteller/Crown with Capitalism/Scepter/Innovation

« on: November 16, 2018, 05:08:44 pm »

I don't think there is a restriction on being able to pay off debt in the middle of resolving a B2 Black Market. The wording

A player removes Debt tokens in the player's Buy phase by paying $1 per Debt token to remove it; this is done after playing Treasures, but can be done both before and after buying cards.

seems to me to express what you summarized before: Paying off debt is restricted to B2.

273

Rules Questions / Re: Capitalism and Black Market

« on: November 15, 2018, 09:30:28 am »

Would it be worth thinking about changing Black Market?
So that it allows you to pay off debt?
I think a lot of players expect to be able to.

About that expectation of players: Are you talking about a 'normal' Black Market in the Action phase or specifically about a Black Market in the buy phase?

For the buy phase Black Market I'd agree, based on the current online implementation and the fact that repaying debt 'too early' had no real benefit before; but that has changed with Renaissance.

274

Rules Questions / Re: Capitalism and Black Market

« on: November 15, 2018, 09:25:07 am »

Sorry for whatever inconsistencies there are or appear to be; I have to live with them though, and am sticking with, the Prosperity and main set rulebooks are just explaining the buy phase, which is actually two steps.

I find it incredible how consistent the game is using it's language and special terms. It makes the small little holes (like this) look so much bigger than they really are.

275

Rules Questions / Re: Capitalism and Black Market

« on: November 15, 2018, 03:32:03 am »

The Prosperity rulebook is just explaining how the Buy phase works (important to explain again there because of the new treasures that do weird things). When it talks about playing treasures it means the normal playing of treasures that the rules let you do, and when it talks about buying cards it means the normal buying of cards that the rules let you do. It's not talking about cards in Dominion that might say "play a treasure" or "buy a card."

Wouldn't that also mean that when the Empires rulebook says

Having Debt tokens prevents a player from buying cards or Events; Debt tokens do nothing else (for example they have no effect at the end of the game).

it is only talking about 'normal' buys, so Black Market buys would be unaffected?