Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.

176

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards

« on: March 06, 2020, 07:40:45 am »

Does cost reduction apply to Wayfarer’s changed cost? Or does Wayfarer’s text set exactly what the cost now is?

If during a turn nothing was gained yet, or only Wayfarers were gained, cost reducers behave as normal and apply to the $6 cost of Wayfarer.

If a non-Wayfarer card was gained, then the cost of that card is calculated (taking cost reducers into account), and it becomes the new cost for Wayfarer (which doesn't apply cost reducers in addition). The cost of the gained card is continuously monitored, and if it changes (say Canal was bought), so changes the cost of Wayfarer.

Of course, everything resets when the next turn comes around.

177

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards

« on: March 06, 2020, 06:02:18 am »

Does black cat interact with possession?

Depends on what you mean. When possessing somebody, you can make them gain a Victory card, which then you gain instead. So you can make the Possessed player play Black Cat as Reaction. Since it is the possessed player's turn, they only draw 2 cards (which can be usefull if the gain happened during the Action phase), no Curses for anyone.

If you had something else in minde, please elaborate.

178

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards

« on: March 06, 2020, 05:58:08 am »

How does Wayfarer work with Noble Brigand?  If you gained both a Silver and a Gold from the trash with Noble Brigand, which one counts as "the last card gained"?  Do you get to choose the order you gain the Treasures?

Usually gained cards have to be gained in some order, as they can't physicllay the top card in your discard pile. I think you get to choose the order (which I don't think is implemented online).

179

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards

« on: March 06, 2020, 05:50:08 am »

Curses are handed out in turn order, so for B's Black Cat it would be A, then C then D. Then it is again B's turn to play Reactions (maybe they had more than 1 Black Cat, maybe they draw one from the first). When C plays their Black Cat, Curses go to A, then B then D.

This can become tricky in that you may have to be strict about reaction order here (not like several people flashing Moats simultaneously). It's even worse: If B doesn't have a Black Cat but C reacts with a Black Cat, then when B gets a Curse B can react with a Sheepdog and draw a Black Cat. But then it's too late to react with that cat!

That's no longer true. Look at this: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19930.0 (there is an even older thread where this originated that I can't find at the moment).

So once C's Black cat is handled, including all triggeres, then B has now a Black Cat in hand. The triggered effects for A gaining a Province aren't over, so A is asked again (probably has nothing), then B is asked, and they now have something they can play, so they can do it.

Only once every player from A to D has 'passed' in succession to do something on A gaining a Province, triggers for that event are over.

180

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards

« on: March 06, 2020, 05:24:02 am »

So, just to make sure I understand this correctly: suppose that you've played three Actions, so that Peddler costs $2 (and assuming no other price reduction).  You buy a Peddler, then a Wayfarer.  The Wayfarer costs what you paid for the Peddler, i.e., $2, correct?

Suppose that you were then able to play another Action, via the Toil event say, so that it would now cost $0 to buy a Peddler.  Is Wayfarer still $2, or is it now $0, the cost of Peddler at the time you're buying the Wayfarer?

1) Correct.
2) Wayfarer now costs $0 (assuming the Action you played didn't cause a gain)

A similar effect to 2) would be if you last gained a Governor, and then buy Ferry put the -$2 cost token on the Governor pile. All Wayfarer's now cost $3.

181

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards

« on: March 06, 2020, 03:32:48 am »

I'm sure there are plenty of ways to gain a card and then change how much that same card would cost--various Peddler tricks, for example--but I'm guessing none of that matters and all Wayfarer cares about is how much the gained card cost at the time it was gained?

Nope, Wayfarer will continue to monitor the gained card and will change cost accordingly.

Guessing also that overpay doesn't matter and if you pay $5 while buying a Doctor then Wayfarer still costs $3?

Yes, that's right. Technically, you paid $3 for Doctor, and then as an on-buy effect paid $2 for overpay. This matters with Basilica, for example.

Less sure about what happens if you put the Ferry token on the Wayfarer pile. Suppose you haven't gained any cards yet in a turn, and buy a reduced-cost Wayfarer for $4... would a second Wayfarer then cost $2, and a third $0?

Cost reductions for Wayfarer are a bit unintuitive for me.

If during a turn nothing was gained yet, or only Wayfarers were gained, everything behaves as normal: Your first, second,... Wayfarers all cost $4 with your Ferry example. If you then gain something else (say a Silver from a Wayfarer playing), you only look at what Silver costs (after applying any reductions to Silver) and don't adjust any more. Since the Silver costs $3, so does the Wayfarer.

Another example: You have bought Canal (a Project that lower's all card's cost by $1 during your turns). Wayfarer costs $5 initially. If you buy a Silver, Wayfarer costs $2 now.

182

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards

« on: March 06, 2020, 03:25:27 am »

Curses are handed out in turn order, so for B's Black Cat it would be A, then C then D. Then it is again B's turn to play Reactions (maybe they had more than 1 Black Cat, maybe they draw one from the first). When C plays their Black Cat, Curses go to A, then B then D.

Yes, Wayfarer takes into account gains by all players, so handing out Curses/Ruins drop the cost to $0 (until the next gain)

Yes, I also think it is the first Reaction-Attack card.

183

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events

« on: March 05, 2020, 10:16:17 am »

I think I have this right?

Example: +Card token on Moat pile, Way of the Ox on board.

I play a Moat as my last action for some reason.
    Token first gives me +1 Card, before I do anything. I draw a Smithy.
Now I choose whether to use Moat's effect or Way of the Ox's effect. I want to play the Smithy more than the Moat, and I'd like to not draw anything dead, so I can choose Way of the Ox, even though I already drew a card from the token.

So in this case, Moat can either be a vanilla Village (+1 Card, +2 Actions) or a Smithy (+1 Card, +2 Cards), but I get to choose which one I like best after I draw one card from the token. It seems like Pathfinding, while already very powerful, is even more powerful when combined with Ways.

All correct. With Pathfinding you get even more info about your hand before you make the decision for a Way or not.

Note that opponnts reacting to your attacks with Moats or similar effects also happens before the Way decision. So if your Coven is Moated, Turtle it aways for next turn if you don't need the +1 Action and +$2 right now.

184

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events

« on: March 05, 2020, 10:11:53 am »

That is interesting! I've been thinking about Crown and the Ways (which maybe will be answered and exemplified in the rule book, making this very moot), but meanwhile I want to check that I got it right.

Since it works any time you play an Action card it should be possible to use the Way even when you play Crowns during your Buy phase.

Right, same for Werewolf.

If you Turtle a Crown it will be played at the start of your next turn. Then you don't have a chance to declare that you want your Action phase to end before you play it (which you might want). I don't know if there is an official ruling, but a rule clarification in the entry for Prince in the Wiki says that the "start of your turn is considered part of your Action phase".

Also correct. Your turtled Crown will inevitably by played during an Action phase, so act like a Throne Room.

185

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events

« on: March 05, 2020, 09:04:58 am »

About tokens and Ways:

Formally, you get the effects of the tokens before you even decide if you want to use a Way or not.  If you draw a card from the +1 Card token, you might even reconsider if to (not) use a Way.

186

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events

« on: March 05, 2020, 06:55:58 am »

But there isn't really a disctinction: If you eternally Turtle a card turn for turn, it is a much 'out of your deck' as the cards on the Exile mat.

187

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events

« on: March 05, 2020, 04:40:04 am »

So, there's no limit to how many times you can use the Ways?  E.g., if you have four Action cards in your hand, you can do them all as a Way?  I can see why you'd recommend only one Way in a game.  Are all the Ways named after animals?

No built in limit. But note that playing an Action card costs an Action (Way or no Way), so if you want to Turtle 4 Actions cards, you need to get 4 Actions somehow.

188

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards

« on: March 04, 2020, 04:12:18 pm »

The Sheepdog card does not look final. The font in the title looks a little odd. I hope, that this will be fixed in the release version.

Animal Fair should say “Action card costing at least $2” to avoid that you can trash Ruins (and for occasional reasons also Transmute).

On Sheepdog the title does look a bit "thin", but maybe that is just the lesser contrast to the relatively dark blue background.

The time to actually change the behavior of cards (Animal Fair) is long over, they are being printed already (or at least very near that point).

189

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards

« on: March 04, 2020, 04:06:37 pm »

When exactly is Sheepdog triggered? If I gain a card onto my deck (via, say, Watchtower), can I play Sheepdog to immediately draw it, or does the playing of Sheepdog occur before the card is gained there?

Sheepdog triggers at exactly the moment you gain the card, like Watchtower or Duplicate did before. If you gain a card onto your deck, say with Supplies, then it will be there when you play Sheepdog, so you'll draw it.

If you gain a card to your discard pile and have both Sheepdog and Watchtower in hand, you can decide what you want to do. You can play Sheepdog first, and move the card to your deck afterwards with Watchtower. Or you can move it with Watchtower first and play Sheepdog second, and then you'll draw the card, as in the above example.

190

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile

« on: March 04, 2020, 10:30:04 am »

I was just writing something about how you can now obtain cards without gaining them when you PPE'd this ^

It was previously possible with masquerade, but somehow masquerade never shows up when I play *shrugs*. I don't think there's another way.

A general way to obtain cards without gaining them is exchanging. You normally never gain the non-Kingdom members of the Treveller lines, for example (can't topdeck them with Watchtower, for example). The same is true for Bat.

Some one-off's exist: the card set aside for Inheritance, a Fortress after you trashed it and cards returning from the "set-aside trash" due to a Possession turn ending.

191

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile

« on: March 04, 2020, 04:03:50 am »

Yes, that's the way to use them once you are greening (and with the initial Estates/Shelters as well).

192

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards

« on: March 04, 2020, 03:16:38 am »

In case not mentioned yet for the devs:

With $5 and 2buys and an action in hand, I clicked buy on Animal Fair and it spent my 2 coffers to cover the 7 and THEN gave me the trash-an-action option. I worked around it by buying a $5cost first but this will be a rough bug when you only want to do the trade.

Thanks for the report, Mike!

Somebody else reported on the problem in discord (I think they mentioned it was from a game of yours), and it is already fixed.

193

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards

« on: March 03, 2020, 03:38:11 am »

The question about Villagers by Snowy Village is a way to mitigate the fact that IRL it's easy to say "I'm converting Villagers right now during resolution of card X" (which is allowed by the rules, if you are in your Action phase), while it is incredibly hard to to fit that ability into an online implementation that was designed to ask you at each step what you want to do.

So Stef tried to identify the cases where it really matters that you can do it during the resolution of the card's effect, and Snowy Village is one such case. One might argue that you could convert Villagers online using the Villagers mat just before you play Snowy Village, but that has 2 problems:

1) You might get Snowy Village as a "surprise play" from cards like Vassal, Herald or Golem, and
2) You actually draw a card with Snowy Village, so your evaluation of the situation may have changed.

And the question about converting Villagers happens right before the effect to ignore +Actions is excecuted. Since that isn't logged and nothing 'physical' happens, it's easy to assume the question comes up  after Snowy Village has resolved.

194

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards

« on: March 02, 2020, 10:03:56 am »

Another previously (before Menagerie) existing way for a card to be discarded during another player's turn is if you call Duplicate during such a turn. Doesn't happen often, but sometimes opponent's Swindler hits a card with a cost with no bad card at that cost, and then you can Duplicate what your opponent makes you gain. The Duplicate will then be discarded at the end of your opponent's turn.

This used to be incorrect online, but has been corrected because it can now happen much more often with Sheepdog.

195

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards

« on: March 02, 2020, 09:58:48 am »

Play King's Court
   Play King's Court (first time)
      Play Kiln (first time)
      Play Kiln (second time)
      Play Kiln (third time)
   Play King's Court (second time)
      Kiln triggers x3; gain 3 King's Courts.

With 2 King's Courts and a Kiln in hand; wow.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way. You can gain a Kiln (from your first time Kiln when you play it the second time ), another Kiln (from your second time Kiln when you play it the third time) amd finally a King's Court (from your third playing of Kiln).

196

Rules Questions / Re: Simple Rules Questions

« on: February 26, 2020, 12:39:56 pm »

I checked the game, and harryparry played "Sculptor --> gain Watchtower--> play Watchtower with Innovation" in turns 13 and 18. Each time (for me in the replay) the question came up if to RC the Watchtower. When I declined, the next option was in both cases to RC the Sculptor.

Of course, it's always possible that it didn't happen in the real game, but I doubt it.

197

Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: Randomly getting kicked out of games

« on: February 11, 2020, 12:34:56 pm »

I've heard about that a few times. What sometimes seems helps is to join your own game as spectator, then reload the browser window. Of course,it shouldn't happen in the first place

198

Rules Questions / Re: Obscure ruling for single-players / play-removers / durations

« on: February 01, 2020, 04:50:14 am »

IRL I can't potentially not know if I got the right card with Graverobber; it has to be shuffled into a deck to really lose it. I mean I can have a stroke, or shuffle the trash and act like this should matter, but you know, I know which card is the Fishing Village I trashed in the same way that I know all other things in the game that you have to track: what two things I picked for Pawn and how many cards I discarded to Vault and which card Band of Misfits played and so on.

What I don't understand is why you are treating this kind of knowledge fundamentally different from the knowledge for the stop moving rule. If I gain a card to my discard pile, then topdeck it with Watchtower, everything else that has triggered and wants to move the card can't do it anymore, even though it's perfectly clear where the card is. This kind of "dissonance" is especially clear for the reworded Shapeshifters. If I use BoM to play an Embargo in the Supply, everybody is perfectly aware where the Embargo is, still it can't be trashed.

The stop moving rule is there to have clarity in all cases, and will often declare a card not movable if IRL you know where it is. The recent change for the discard pile means a card can be found/moved in more cases now, which is good.

Using the same or a very similar approach here would make it consistent. If a card moved into another zone, it's lost it's identity for every effect except the moving one. This solves exactly the kind of edge case problems the stop moving rule is solving. Especially in cases like Jeebus constructed, where the Fishing Village is trashed by Counterfeit. Once that has happened, the reason why the "Throne Rooms stay in play" rule was made is already violated. Trying to preserve it's intent after a chain of effects to bring the Fishing Village back into play seems ill-guided to me.

Tl;dnr: Using the same mechanism as developed for "stop moving" would help solve "I'm uncertain if this is the same card" problem, at (IMO) no loss of intended interactions.

199

Rules Questions / Re: Obscure ruling for single-players / play-removers / durations

« on: January 31, 2020, 03:08:44 pm »

Thief is IMO different in that respect. It's one effect of one card that moves cards around, it makes sense that it is able to track cards over the "short time" of its resolution. In your case, different effects move a card around, during the buy phase. That is much longer and harder to keep track of than during a single effects resolution.

To me the question if a given card is the same as one referred to by another effect is very similar to the problem that the stop moving rule is supposed to solve: Sometimes you can't find a card, so the rule specifies conditions when the card can be found, and the conditions are such that in RL play they really mean the card can be found. The solution to this problem should IMO be very similar. Specify conditions under which an effect can still determine if a given card is the same as another specified one. If it can't determine that, the assumption is that it is different.

200

Rules Questions / Re: Obscure ruling for single-players / play-removers / durations

« on: January 31, 2020, 12:25:53 pm »

First two scenarios that are essentially the same, and I'm 99% sure that the BoM doesn't stay in play.

1) I play BoM, playing a TR from Supply, playing a Fishing Village. I trash the Fishing Village (with Donate). The BoM doesn't stay in play?

2) I have Capitalism. I play BoM, playing a Counterfeit from Supply, playing and trashing a Fishing Village. The BoM doesn't stay in play?

1) Correct, assuming Donate really means Bonfire.
2) BoM can't play Counterfeit (not an Action card). But assuming it could, also correct.

3) I have Capitalism. I play Counterfeit, playing and trashing a Fishing Village. I Graverobber the FV onto my deck, and play it with Vassal. So the Vassal stays in play because we know that it's "that card". But then the Counterfeit also stays in play?

You picked up on a problem that isn't solved with the "stop moving" rule: Sometimes card identities matter beside the question if a card should move someplace else. I think this is an area that isn't really covered in the rules at the moment.

For example, are you sure you used Graverobber to put the exact same FV onto your deck that you just trashed, or was it maybe one of the 9 other FV that were already in the trash? Do you have to decide/announce when you resolve Graverobber which FV you take? Should the answer to the scenario you described really depend on if the FV just trashed was the only one in the trash or not?

I don't have answers to that  , but the problem does exist, unfortunately.