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Messages - Ingix

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151
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Can't Log In on dominion.games:Help
« on: March 20, 2020, 05:43:15 am »
Stef (the game's developer) said that in the night for roughly an hour ~40% of players could not log in, the other 60% could. He isn't sure what exactly the problem was.

152
Rules Questions / Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« on: March 19, 2020, 06:58:18 pm »

It's possible to replace the play ability of a card several times.

No, that is AFAIK not true. You can replace following the card's instructions once, but then you aren't following the card's instruction any more, so any other replacements for "follow a card's instructions" don't apply any more. That's how Ways "beat" Enchantress: Once a Way has been applied, there isn't something to apply the Enchantress effect to.

I do not know how the Lantern works formally. One possible explanation is that it replaces just a part of following the Border Guard's instruction.

153
Way of the Mouse with Vassal set aside can indeed cause many new things.  Note that Crown doesn't work in that deck you created, it doesn't do anything when you play it and it's not your turn.

154
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« on: March 19, 2020, 06:39:19 pm »
Ways override Enchantress, right?

Correct.

155
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« on: March 19, 2020, 05:14:06 am »
How would Gatekeeper be affected by that?  Gatekeeper only Exiles a card if there's no copies on the Exile mat, if there is one or more copies, it has no effect, and you can discard as usual

The ability of the Exile mat always triggers when you gain a card. Then, on resolution, it checks if you have other copies of that card in Exile and discards them. One example where this is relevant is that you gain a Gold (none yet on the Exile mat) and react with Sheepdog, but play it using Way of the Camel (which Exiles a Gold from the Supply). So when the Exile mat ability resolves, there is now actually a Gold to discard!

Taking this into account, a mat ability that doesn't say "other" wouldn't make Gatekeeper work as intended. The attacked player that is gaining an Action or Treasure card would choose to resolve the Gatekeeper ability first (exiling the gained card), then the Exile mat ability second, which (without "other") would see no problem to the discard the just Exiled card.

156
Caravan Guard -> Way of the Mouse -> an Attack?

Right! Now you can actually play any card when it's not your turn. Also works with Black Cat, Sheepdog or Falconer.

Any card costing or anyway.

Hint: Vassal costs $3.

157
Caravan Guard -> Way of the Mouse -> an Attack?

Right. Caravan Guard can of course be replaced by any of the new Reactions that can be played now at unusual times.

158
There isn't a way to say "No attacks" or "At least 1 Village" or "2 Trashers", though. If you have "positive" requirements (like the last two), you can just select cards on your own that meet the criteria, and leve the other slots open. But in order to ensure the first condition, you must select all kingdom slots yourself, as (as I said) there is no way to prevent any slot to be randomly filled with an attack.

159
Rules Questions / Re: Sheepdog + "When you gain"
« on: March 18, 2020, 07:07:11 am »
A cards own "When you gain this" ability is in no way different or privileged from another card's "When you gain a card" effect. You can execute them in whatever order you want.

160
OK, so clearly I was ahead of my time with this post.

With Way of the Frog, Moat effectively becomes (the defensive part of) Champion, though you sacrifice a card per turn to do that.

Note that you can now be attacked on your own turn (Black Cat, for example), so it isn't a complete protection. But I guess it's good against the usual Junkers that people often consider getting a Moat for.

161
Make your own table with "New Table", then "Create Table". Set the number of Max players to 5.  Add a bot.

The last step makes it very unlikely somebody else is coming into your table by accident. If they do, just kick them.

For the following to work, it is necessary that your friends have declared you as their in-game "friend". They can do that by going into the "Friend List" tab, typing your username into the edit field below (says "Username" while empty) and click "Add".

Now they can see you when you are online while they are in the "Matching" tab. When they see you at a table, they can press the "Join" button. Then they are at your table, at the moment just as spectators and can press "Play" to becomes a player. Once the last player has joined, you kick the bot, and everybody clicks "Ready" and the game starts.

162
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards
« on: March 17, 2020, 02:44:12 pm »
Just to make sure I follow...

Play Stonemason
1) trash Destrier ($6)
2) gain Livery ($5); Destrier now costs $5 because you've gained one card, Wayfarer costs $5 because you last gained a Livery
3) gain something costing less than $5 (Destrier's current cost)

Correct.

163
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie rule book is up!
« on: March 17, 2020, 02:40:12 pm »
Yes, all 30 Kingdom cards are listed at the start of page 2.

164
Rules Questions / Re: Militia rule change
« on: March 17, 2020, 05:18:17 am »
I think Tunnel and Green Village are the only cards affected by this "change", besides the opponent now knowing all cards discarded. Faithful Hound's effect doesn't have anything that can be triggered of it, so it doesn't really need to be handled 'right now, before the next card is discarded'.

165
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« on: March 17, 2020, 05:09:25 am »
The +1 buy is only counteracting the fact hat you need a buy to get Desperation. And you can't "Throne" a Desperation.

166
Rules Questions / Re: Militia rule change
« on: March 16, 2020, 06:26:47 pm »
Most (all?) discard effects online have the last chosen card become the top card in the discard.

167
I am in no way arguing their experience is ruined. I am just saying the suggested change would make things objectively worse, once parameters are set to the actual target audience -- which is a human player, not a language compiler.

And back we are when humans argue that the things they find worse than other things are "objectively worse" than those other things.

I'm adamantly in the exact opposite quarter: "If you didn't play it" describes excatly what is wanted, and should be understandable by players. Of course, that doesn't mean I'm right, but I'm not claiming that it is objectively better.

168
On the other hand, if you Turtle (single or double) the Treasure Hunter, you wouldn't be able to exchange it that turn. (maybe in the above scenario the reshuffle is still a turn away)
You are right, that totally kills my example (other Ways keep the card in play, but not the Turtle).

169
The Throne Room gets discarded, for the reason you stated. Throne Room stay-out rules weren't made under the assumption that Durations could remove themselves from play, in fact that's the opposite of what Durations conceptually stand for.

If you did choose the Way of the Turtle for your second play, then would the fact that the card is now set aside mean that you don't get the Duration effect on your next turn, since it's not in play, or do you still get the effect for the same reason that, for example, a self-trashing card can still be played twice by TR?

Jeebus answered already that you get the Duration effect next turn. To support the argument, for the rules it doesn't even make a difference if you use Turtle on the first or second play. You can turtle the card on first play, then play it normally on second play.

Strategically, though, every time the Duration card will reveal some hidden information (like drawing a card), players will play it normally on first play, in case the new information changes their plan. Since double Turtling doesn't "work" (see markus answer), players can always(*) afford to play it without Way on first play.

(*) Edge cases exist where you may want to double Turtle a Throned card. Say your hand is Throne Room, Treasure Hunter, Gold, Gold, Copper. You want to buy that King's Court, want to exchange the Treasure Hunter before a reshuffle, but also are under a Haunted Woods, and you don't want to topdeck the Throne Room. Your opponent gained lots of cards last turn, and you don't want the Silvers. Then  Throne the Treasure Hunter and Turtle it both times. Well, maybe not the best example but you get the picture.

170
The Throne Room gets discarded, for the reason you stated. Throne Room stay-out rules weren't made under the assumption that Durations could remove themselves from play, in fact that's the opposite of what Durations conceptually stand for.

171
Rules Questions / Re: Militia rule change
« on: March 11, 2020, 01:48:04 pm »
All at once. Opponent only sees top card discarded, you can't discard Tunnel, gain Gold, topdeck Gold with Watchtower, then discard that Watchtower.

172
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« on: March 09, 2020, 01:54:30 pm »
In another place Donald said today, roughly "Without looking it up, Militia is one discard for multiple cards".

That makes sense to me, as there is as of yet no "-1 discard token".

173
Can you play Sheepdog as a Way during your buy phase when you gain?

I didn't get the option to play it as Way of the Mole.

Game #36702705 turn 17

Yes you can. You should have gotten the option to use the Way with Sheepdog.

Did you use the Sheepdog card in your hand to react (then you should have clicked on the Way button on the card to get use the Way). If you clicked on the normal button that said "Sheepdog", then you could have clicked on the Way first, then that button, but we forgot to tell anybody that that worked, so that's our fault. For the release probably this will be changed to always ask if you use that normal button.

174
Rules Questions / Re: Model for "when you play" triggers
« on: March 08, 2020, 02:01:33 pm »
I think the important part that Jeebus misses in the discussion is that Dominion does not follow a strict "We have an event, we note down every ability that triggers of that event, then have other rules determine how those noted abilities resolve at some later time." paradigm.

I wish it would, but it can't due to the classic Secret Chamber/Moat (maybe now Diplomat/Moat) interaction.

Instead we have a model where after an event happens, there is a window to handle triggered effects for that event. If there are none, that window is over. If there are multiple, they are handled, one at a time, until there are none left. The thing that differentiates it from the strict paradigm above is that until the list of pending triggered effects has become empty, new ones can be added to that list.

Again, that is necessary for Diplomat/Moat. It's also been true for "At start of turn" effects: I can play a Hireling with an "At start of turn" effect (say Ghost or Piazza), and it's own "At the start of each of your turns..." effect will already trigger and resolve this very turn. It's why if you use Innovate on gaining Duplicate, you can call the very same Duplicate you just played on it's own gain Event. That wouldn't be possible if the allowed effects would be restricted to abilities that were available when the event happened.

For that reason, I think the difference between Model A and Model B is non-existent.

For example for "when you play, after (after resolving)" effects, it is clear that their window to be handled is after the card has done its on-play effect. Taking the above into account, it doesn't really become important when those abilities trigger, if in Model A in step 1) or in Model B in step 5). What's important is that they exist at step 5.

That's why I also think that the analysis of Jeebus about Champion is incorrect:
Quote
Champion has been ruled in different ways, but was ruled as “after resolving” until recently. Going by that ruling, it would work differently depending on the model. With model A, its own when-play ability (“+1 Action”) would not trigger upon it being played, since the ongoing ability would not be active yet in step 1; it would activate in step 4. Since it was not triggered, it would not be resolved in step 5. With model B, however, the when-play ability would trigger and be resolved in step 5, giving you one more Action.

As I said above, "when does the ability trigger" isn't relevant at all. What's relevant is that the ability exists at some time when the window for handling an event is active (not yet empty), which is true for both models.

The way I see it, the model for playing a is card as follows:

1) Annouce playing the card and put it in play (if appropriate).
2) All things that do something "first" when a card is played now have their window to be handled (Kiln, Urchin, Champion, Adventure tokens, Reactions on attack (Moat, Diplomat, etc.)).
3) All things that replace "following a card's instructions" apply now (Enchantress, Ways, not sure about Lantern). Only one can apply, since afterwards you are no longer following the card's instructions, even for the Way of the Chameleon.
4) The card does it's on-play effect or alternate effect (if step 3 replaced following the card's instructions).
5) All things that do something when a card is played (no "first") now have their window to be handled (Royal Carriage, Citadel, Sauna, ...)

For your examples, I already discussed Champion and I don't understand the Enchantress example.

For Sauna/Silver/Merchant: In step 5) of the Silver play, initially only the Sauna effect is pending. After it has been executed the Merchant has been played as part of it. Assuming it was the first Silver play, this means there is now a new ability in step 5 of the Silver playing, which gets handled and results in an additional +$1.

Summing up, it seems that my results agree with your Model B, but I don't think the reasonsing is the same. Thinking about when an abilitiy triggers is ultimately not relevant, as it is important only if it exits at some time during the window to handle the corresponding event.

175
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards
« on: March 06, 2020, 09:47:02 am »
When you Mastermind a Duration, do they both stay out until the final target has resolved? Masterminding a Mastermind doesn't seem nearly that amazing anymore then.

Yup, when a card plays a Duration, it stays out until the Duration goes away.

Only if it plays it a second or further time. Vassal/Herald/Golem don't stay out, for example. Of course, Mastermind is playing a card thrice.

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