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Messages - gryph202

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1
ScorePile is CouncilRoom for Innovation.

I've spent a bit of time working on it, and gotten some basic things working:
  • You can browse games by player.
  • You can browse games by date.
  • You can get a perma-link to a game log (and in fact, its URL is what its URL was on Isotropic, with "innovation.isotropic.org" changed to "innovation.scorepile.org").

Anyone want to help improve it? ScorePile runs in Python 3 using Bottle, I'm developing it on GitHub, and I'd appreciate any kind of help. Some things that come to mind are:
  • Improving the UI
  • Collecting (or recomputing) players' levels on the leaderboard
  • Extending the parser to parse things that happen during the game, so we can collect stats and stuff based on them
  • Collecting stats
  • Achievements (not the in-game ones, the meta-game ones like CouncilRoom had)

I approve!  I also look forward to seeing what you can do with this.  Surely there are many meta-game achievements that can be tapped.  Thank you thank you!

2
Goko Dominion Online / Re: Was this really necessary?
« on: March 29, 2013, 11:30:30 pm »
Exhibit number [insert ridiculously high number here] in why I'm not spending money on Goko.

3
Innovation General Discussion / Re: A problem, as I see it
« on: March 27, 2013, 05:24:01 pm »
I'm not sure what the problem is?  Metaphors and analogies are a good way to learn new things.  As Dominion players learning Innovation, it makes sense that we would sometimes use Dominion metaphors to try to understand Innovation strategy.  Just because someone brings up Dominion doesn't mean that it is "sullying their enjoyment of Inno".

No, that's not the case in every instance.  But when I make the observation that early achievements are worth just as much as later ones, and someone cites Dominion ("Are early provinces worth the same as later ones when you clog your deck?") as a reason my inno strategy is flawed, it sure sullies my enjoyment of both games.

4
Innovation General Discussion / A problem, as I see it
« on: March 27, 2013, 08:37:54 am »
On another thread, I made a comment that ruffled some feathers. It was something to the tune of, "All achievements are 1/6 of a win."  Not long after, as I figured would happen, someone posted a reply to the tune of, "Is that like saying in Dominion, all provinces are...?"

I still play Dominion tabletop.  I also have a tabletop copy of Inno since I started playing that as Iso.  I wish the old Dominion guard could resist the temptation to compare Inno to Dominion.  They really are two different games, and particularly in terms of strategy, it's an apples-to-oranges comparison.

I think Inno is a great game.  I think Dominion is still a great game.  But the one thing I like even more than playing games is learning new ones, and it pains me to think that anyone's Dominion experience, in any way shape or form, may be sullying their enjoyment of Inno.

5
is this like saying an early bought province scores the same amount of VP as a later bought province?

Tehnically that's true, although IMO Dominion is a far less situational game than Innovation is.  There seem to be some situations, at least to me, that would call for earlier use of agriculture than others depending on what the opponents' respective boards look like. 

6
I've often does this, and it seems a common trend to do so, but achievements are really, really, important, and simply playing for them is often sufficient. This wasn't a perfectly played game on both sides (I was allowed to clothing into monument). But it feels unique in that I never had a card age 5 or above and still won. Usually the game doesn't go that short. http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201303/26/game-20130326-140252-55178ecf.html

[Editor's note: fixed confusing typo]

I have played a lot of games that I have won despite being out-teched.  I think this is going to diminish somewhat now that established Inno players are gaining some experience, but it is worth noting that low-level achievements are just as valuable as any other.  They're all 1/6 of a win.

7
Innovation General Discussion / Re: trading one iso for another iso
« on: March 25, 2013, 04:13:38 pm »

That being said, I think the circumstances are vastly different.  The licensing for Dominion was done by language, as it is for most games.  In other words, RGG gets the license to publish all english-language versions of Dominion regardless of where they are released. 

WUT.
So we could have dominion back if we all learn to speak french???

What do you mean, you could "have Dominion back"?  Are you somehow suddenly unable to play?

Ignoring that... I would be highly surprised if RGG's distribution model works like that, given three things we know.  First, we know that Donald X has a licensing contract with RGG (Donald has stated this).  Second, we know that non-English versions say "(c) 20xx Rio Grande Games" on the cards (you can look this up at BGG).  Three, we know that RGG has a licensing contract with Goko.  Given that knowledge, what we can guess is the following:

(1) Donald, the original IP owner, owns the copyright to the card text.  Copyright, by default, applies to multiple languages, not just one; it applies to the words, not the letters or the alphabet.
(2) Donald has sold the copyright to RGG for a period of N years, after which the copyright reverts to him.
(3) Because RGG owns the copyright during this time, they automatically have a license to publish in any language or format they wish to.
(4) RGG sought artists for the card art and paid them for their art.  Mostly likely, this was a one-time payment for copyright/distribution in perpetuity, though it's possible the artists retained the right to sell prints of their artwork--hard to say.
(5) RGG collated everything into the game we know, in English, as Dominion; they decided to also be the publisher and distributor, at least in the US.  They contracted the manufacturing to their normal manufacturer, wherever that may be.
(6) RGG then sold the publication and distribution rights for a given language or area--not the same as the copyright--to Hans im Gluck, Filosofia, 999, etc., for P years.  Given the uniform look of Dominion versions, those publication and distribution rights came with the stipulation that the same card art would be used, and almost certainly the same manufacturer.
(7) RGG then sold the online distribution rights in all languages to Goko for Q years, after which those rights revert to RGG.

In other words, the rights to publish and distribute an online French, German, etc. version already belong to Goko.  So, no, you can't "have Dominion back" in the way you're implying.

To me, this sounds like a more likely arrangement.  It is not unusual for games to be published by different companies in different languages, but I seem to recall reading something about Jay Tummelson having some expertise in importing/converting Eurogames for the American market.   

8
Innovation General Discussion / Re: trading one iso for another iso
« on: March 25, 2013, 10:21:22 am »

That being said, I think the circumstances are vastly different.  The licensing for Dominion was done by language, as it is for most games.  In other words, RGG gets the license to publish all english-language versions of Dominion regardless of where they are released. 

WUT.
So we could have dominion back if we all learn to speak french???

Dunno.  I don't speak for Jay Tummelson either.  It is just my understanding that the licensing agreement for Inno was a little bit...shall we say, "unusual."

9
Innovation General Discussion / Re: trading one iso for another iso
« on: March 25, 2013, 09:47:16 am »
Yes, I run Asmadi Games, and helped Carl develop Innovation into the awesomeness that it became. 

I am hugely in favor of this implementation's existence.  It's great to be able to play the game cleanly and quickly online!

Iello I believe plans to release a digital version at some point, but they're in Europe so I'd like to think this version will be unaffected.

You can't promise though?

I don't speak for Chris Cieslik or Asmadi games. 

That being said, I think the circumstances are vastly different.  The licensing for Dominion was done by language, as it is for most games.  In other words, RGG gets the license to publish all english-language versions of Dominion regardless of where they are released.  Innovation, on the other hand, was licensed by region.  The Iello English-language version is sold to retailers in Europe, primarily the UK, while Asmadi handles the first-level distribution in (North?) America.

It begs credulity, as far as I'm concerned, that Chris would want to do anything to jeopardize the IsoInno that he himself helped implement, but who knows?  As I said at the beginning of the post, I don't speak for him.  I'm just excited that Iso lives and I have my tabletop coppy of Inno.  :)

10
I noticed it the first time I played Innovation. It hasn't prevented me from clicking the card though.

As well it shouldn't, IMO.  There are times when it is not only strategically sound, but desirable to share an effect.  For example, if you share an effect that exchanges cards from a zone but there are no cards there to exchange, it still won't do anything to your opponent.  And if you force your opponent to meld a card against their wishes, you have a chance of covering a top card that your opponent may not want covered.  There is lots and lots of a strategic nuance.

11
Innovation General Discussion / Re: trading one iso for another iso
« on: March 19, 2013, 12:07:06 am »
Doug approached me, although I secretly had a crush on Isotropic Dominion for a long time.

Third grade style <3!

AngelKurisu:
I've seen a number of posts on here by you.
Not to be too direct, but, who are you?
Are you the designer? The publisher?

Either way, could you talk about your background, etc?

Ed

Pardon me if it sounds a bit presumptive of me to speak up here, but "AngelKurisu" is in fact Chris Cieslik (sp?) of Asmadi Games.  His relationship to Innovation is similar to Jay Tummelson's relationship to Dominion, i.e. he publishes the game that Carl Chudyk designed.  I believe Chris has done some design work of his own (e.g. "We Didn't Playtest This Game" et. al), but as Innovation's North American publisher, Chris gave DougZ the go-ahead to implement Inno on Iso.

Anything you'd like to add and/or correct here, Chris?  Or did I about cover it?

12
Innovation Articles / Re: Quick Reference of all the cards
« on: March 18, 2013, 03:53:12 pm »
Not bad.  A worthy endeavor, but the right half of the yellow cards is cut off.  Is it just me, or did the images crop somehow?

Whoops.  Nevermind.  It is me.  I just adjusted the zoom on my browser, and it worked.  :)

13
Innovation General Discussion / Re: trading one iso for another iso
« on: March 18, 2013, 03:29:28 pm »
Doug approached me, although I secretly had a crush on Isotropic Dominion for a long time.

Third grade style <3!

That doesn't surprise me.  I know there's some debate out there over whether Inno or Dominion is better suited to the Iso platform, but there is not a doubt in my mind that Inno is very well-suited.


14
Innovation General Discussion / Re: Looking for some advice
« on: March 16, 2013, 10:27:30 pm »
I actually DID win one game by doing Agriculture and not much else...generally thats poor strategy though. Someone uses Anatomy on you and you are dead in the water. Am learning quickly that Innovation requires a bit more focus than Dominion. I tend to be lazy at times and not look at the entire situation. One game I lost because I splayed the wrong color up (needed more crowns to protect against Skyscraper). I also need work on picking up potential engines that my opponent may use before its too late.

That's just it.  The game board is in constant flux.  The best move changes from situation to situation, and there are even some high-level dogmas that I would still describe as situationally useful.  I think the best advice I ever got on Innovation was:  Keep playing and don't let yourself get too frustrated.  Innovation is a game you'll get a "feel" for.

15
Innovation General Discussion / Re: Looking for some advice
« on: March 16, 2013, 08:43:13 pm »
So.. you never want to use Agriculture turn 1, ever.  Even if the card was totally useless, (and writing isn't useless), you don't want to spend an action and only get 2 points from it.  2 points is simply worth less than a draw or a meld.

I generally hold Agriculture until later in the game, when I can get at least five points a pop from it, if I use it at all.  When you've got everything lining up but your score pile is still woefully thin and you're up to age 4-5 with a couple of top cards you no longer have any use for, slap down agriculture.  If you time it right, you can use it to stay one step ahead of your opponents in getting those achievements -- sometimes.  ;)

16
Innovation General Discussion / Re: trading one iso for another iso
« on: March 16, 2013, 07:42:57 pm »
Yeah, there was the whole thing about Carl Chudyk being "the man who said no to Goko" not long ago. And now, at the time when Goko is forcing the closure of a very popular and active gaming platform for Dominion, Carl Chudyk's game gets released on that very platform. Seems to me to be a very good idea for business and I would not be surprised if this implementation was more Carl's idea than Dougz's. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Dougz was offered money to implement Innovation (although I expect he would turn such an offer down, as he doesn't seem to do these things for money).

This is all, of course, baseless speculation. Do not quote me on any of it.

Carl Chudyk wasn't the guy who said no to Goko.  Chris Cieslik was.  He posts here as "AngelKurisu," I believe.

Chris C. is to Asmadi Games as Jay Tummelson is to Rio Grande Games.  Jay was the guy who had to say yes to Goko, and Chris was the guy who said no.

Errr... yeah. Their names are very similar to me and I get confused :(

It's all good.  I just thought I should clarify.  Chris Cieslik publishes Innovation, but Carl Chudyk was the game's designer.  Donald X. is to Dominion as Carl Chudyk is to Innovation.   :P

17
Innovation General Discussion / Re: trading one iso for another iso
« on: March 16, 2013, 07:18:57 pm »
Yeah, there was the whole thing about Carl Chudyk being "the man who said no to Goko" not long ago. And now, at the time when Goko is forcing the closure of a very popular and active gaming platform for Dominion, Carl Chudyk's game gets released on that very platform. Seems to me to be a very good idea for business and I would not be surprised if this implementation was more Carl's idea than Dougz's. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Dougz was offered money to implement Innovation (although I expect he would turn such an offer down, as he doesn't seem to do these things for money).

This is all, of course, baseless speculation. Do not quote me on any of it.

Carl Chudyk wasn't the guy who said no to Goko.  Chris Cieslik was.  He posts here as "AngelKurisu," I believe.

Chris C. is to Asmadi Games as Jay Tummelson is to Rio Grande Games.  Jay was the guy who had to say yes to Goko, and Chris was the guy who said no.

18
Innovation General Discussion / Re: Looking for some advice
« on: March 16, 2013, 06:51:20 pm »
Have lost ~10 games in a row. trying to figure out how to play better. Here is log of game I just finished

http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201303/16/game-20130316-153919-9d3ff190.html

Got very quick start with Metalworking with a lof of scoring and a couple early achievements. But then I just got killed from midgame on with Leaf and Crown demands: Mapmaking, Anatomy, Enterprise, Navigation, Societies and finally Combustion.   

What do you do when you opponent can basically take your score/meld pile at will and make it hard to meld anything?

Pay attention to which innovations they are using to invoke those dogmas.  And when you figure that out, pay attention to which ages those innovations are from.  The game changes in nature, I find, when someone starts hitting age 5 and above on their board.  If you're still stuck back in age 2 or 3, it can be a big hurdle to overcome.

Also, while ages 1, 2, and 3 may seem trivially easy to dominate, don't pass them up -- ever.  Each achievement has equal value in winning the game, so even if your opponent is on a roll, taking the early achievements when possible may put the breaks on their domination.

19
Dominion Isotropic / Re: The Future of Isotropic
« on: March 14, 2013, 04:20:55 pm »
You also have to remember that there's more than just Dominion out there for them.

By "them," do you mean Goko?  Cause if so, yeah, there's also the other two games they have on the site in addition to however many they thought they were going to have at launch and didn't.  What happened to all those other hot properties, anyway?  Flushed down the memory hole?
I do mean Goko. And they still have a lot of other properties, more than just the three. If you want to know what's going on with those, I am not the person to ask.

And we won't know until such time as they decide to roll them out, which they haven't, because they don't have their crap together.  Of all the promises Goko has welched on so far, "License us exclusive rights to your games so we can do wonderful things to them with HTML 5!" has been a big one.  I personally think that each and every license was sold a HUGE bill of goods on just what HTML 5 is/isn't capable of.  YMMV.

20
Dominion Isotropic / Re: The Future of Isotropic
« on: March 14, 2013, 04:17:18 pm »
You also have to remember that there's more than just Dominion out there for them.

By "them," do you mean Goko?  Cause if so, yeah, there's also the other two games they have on the site in addition to however many they thought they were going to have at launch and didn't.  What happened to all those other hot properties, anyway?  Flushed down the memory hole?

21
I agree with the above.
Goko failed the initial relase, no doubt about that. You can go and punish them for that by not playing there now. But then you're also punishing yourself. Is that worth it? I don't think so.

I'm punishing myself only if I'm doing something I don't want to do, or if I'm not doing something I really want to do.  Since I have no interest in playing on Goko (I have all extant expansions and the base set already to play tabletop), I am neither punishing them or myself.  I am declining to spend money on an inferior product that won't run on two of the three computers that I own and attempted a gold release at least six months before it was anywhere near ready.  Goko doesn't need punishment.

I can just about guaran-damn-tee you they hurt themselves to this very day by their disastrous roll out.  Their numbers will never be as high as they could have been had they just waited six months.  They may be a viable, nay, successful company in the long-run, but some (including myself) will always have that sour taste left in our mouths.

And by the by, if Goko is such an upstanding company and they have their ducks all supposedly in a row, how come only three games have been released so far?  What about all those other wonderful properties they all tied up in the exclusive contracts?  There's hardly any indication of what they had planned on the site now.  Just three paltry (compared to the hype) games that they are STILL working on six months after that disastrous roll out.

You wanna play Dominion online badly enough to play at Goko?  Fine.  I won't judge you for it. But I don't plan on spending money there, so I hope I'm not judged too harshly for my misgivings, fair or unfair. 

22
4. My sense is that this isn't really about specific security questions, but rather a much more esoteric issue... Reputation. For you, goko's reputation took a hit last summer. They've made a lot of fixes to their system, but you are unwilling to forgive them or even give them a fresh look as if you first heard about them today. I'm not saying you don't have your reasons or aren't justified, I just think you should at least recognize this thread for what it really is... "I'm WW, I don't trust goko (and you can't make me)"

No, we can't. All I can request is that you be fair. Last July 4, the company responsible for the San Diego firework show had a bug that simultaneously shot off all their $500,000 worth of fireworks in 20 seconds. You can YouTube the event. They investigated the cause and gave a detailed report about the problem. Now this year cities have two choices: they can use this company and assume that they worked the glitch out and their show is more robust for it... Or they can hire another company, because, you know, company b has never had a glitch, and company a had a big one.

My question is: Is it fair to boycott company a after they acknowledged and fixed their glitch?

I am so glad you mentioned reputation. It's such a big deal and I think you are right that there might be more of a reputation problem than a security problem. Customer perception matters. Because of it, companies who have built good reputations can weather a few storms (Google Buzz, anyone?) while new companies with no reputation can't, as easily.

I guess that's what it boils down to for me.  No matter how well Goko manages to get their act together, I will always have that memory of the grade-A disastrous initial roll out.  I love playing Dominion, but not enough to spend money on a product that was  ever botched that badly.

23
Dominion Isotropic / Re: The Future of Isotropic
« on: March 13, 2013, 09:52:51 pm »
Some people here make it sound like we're at a funeral mourning Dominion's death.

For all we know, the transition to Goko could spell the beginning of the death of Dominion, as many elite players have expressed that they no longer wish to continue playing. Or it could be the opposite. I'm inclined to believe that it will more likely be the latter, but that is all contingent on Goko continuing to display a shred of competence as a company.

If the so-called "elite" players have bought Dominion already for the tabletop, I'm sure RGG and Donald X. couldn't care less if they keep playing online or keep playing at all.  The game's publisher and designer already have their money.  If those so-called "elite" players never spent any money on Dominion anyway, still no skin off of Donald X.'s or Jay Tummelson's noses.  They didn't spend money before, and made it quite clear they are not going to.

I don't consider myself "elite" by any stretch of the imagination.  I spent money on Dominion before, and will continue to when Guilds comes out.  I will also continue to patronize whatever games are hosted by DougZ at Isotropic.  I will not be spending money at Goko for the foreseeable future.

Do I sound unreasonable?  Stupid?  I sure hope not.  Emotions around here run pretty high considering Dominion is just a game.

24
Dominion Isotropic / Re: The Future of Isotropic
« on: March 13, 2013, 07:23:49 am »
Oh well. I guess some thanks are in order. As good a game as dominion is (and it is one of the best games ever imo), a big reason I've spent so many hours playing online was the community; dominionstrategy, this forum, councilroom. I don't see myself playing on goko either, unless the interface gets streamlined and we can get the same kind of matchmaking/rankings/support we had at iso. So thank you dougz for making isotropic, theory for dominionstrategy, gerominoo for your simulator, rrenaud and everyone else on the councilroom team, marin for your crazy fun engines, wanderingwinder for your videos and analysis (and repeatedly beating me senseless), everyone who had contributed articles and advice here and to all of my opponents. It was fun.

And many thanks to Donald X for thinking up this brilliant game, introducing a new game mechanism which proved to be seminal, and patiently answering questions on this forum.

Some people here make it sound like we're at a funeral mourning Dominion's death.

25
Dominion Isotropic / Re: No thanks, Goko
« on: March 12, 2013, 08:08:06 pm »
I'm too lazy to read the Innovation rules. I want to learn to play though.

I can teach you how to play, if you're patient.  But regardless, I don't think Innovation is a game for the lazy.

I would like to take you up on your offer. And, I wouldn't say I'm lazy. I just don't want to read the rulebook. I prefer learning by actually playing.

Innovation Rules Summary:

Taking your turn:
You take two actions per turn, which can either consist of drawing an innovation, melding an innovation to its corresponding pile, invoking a visible dogma, or dominating an age (provided scoring and top card requirements are met).  First person to gain the required number of achievements (six in a two-player game) wins immediately.

Invoking Dogma:
Every card except for the special achievements represents an innovation and has a group of icons on it, as well as one or more associated dogmas.  If you invoke a dogma, any player with at least as many of its corresponding icon as you have will follow that dogma first.  If you invoke a demand dogma (the ones that begin "I demand..."), you make that demand only of players that have fewer of the corresponding icon than you do.

Basic achievements:
In order to win a basic achievement (numbered one through nine), two conditions must be met.  Your score pile must have at least 5x the number of points as that achievement, and at least one top card on the player's board must be that level or higher.  If both of those conditions are met, the player may use one of their two actions to "dominate" that age.

Special achievements:
Not all of the achievements are numbered.  Some (e.g. "world," "universe," "monument," et. al) have special conditions listed on them.  Once those conditions are met, that special achievement is scored immeidately without requiring the use of an action.  These special achievements also have corresponding innovations which may be used to score the special achievements via dogma.

Other win conditions:
Some dogmas set win conditions or end the game when invoked.  If a dogma sets a win condition, whoever meets those conditions wins immediately (with influence score used as a tie-breaker).  If a dogma ends the game without setting a win condition, the player with the most influence wins.

Trust me, folks, this is as simple as I can make it without quoting the rulebook verbatim.  If this makes sense at all, give Innovation a try.  If this all reads like Greek, the rulebook does a much better job of explaining the particulars than I can.

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