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Dominion General Discussion / Re: Paradigm shifts
« on: August 29, 2012, 07:39:49 am »
The effect of playing a card is independent of the circumstances in which is it played.

A card must have been bought or gained in order to have an effect on gameplay.

Reaction cards are revealed from your hand to have an effect.

I'm guessing you mean Torturer, IGG, and YW's bane?

For the first one, I was thinking Conspirator myself.

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Now, I think I know the answer to this, but I just want to make sure - can a Scheme save a Hermit from Madness?
Even though Scheme says "if" rather than "when," it's the same timing as "when" - both cards do something when Hermit is discarded from play. So you pick what order to resolve the effects. If you resolve Hermit first, Scheme will be unable to find Hermit in the trash, due to the lose track rule (which is in the Dark Ages rulebook). If you resolve Scheme first, Hermit will be unable to trash itself, but will still gain you a Madman (there's no "if you do" there).


This ruling surprised me a bit and I've been puzzling over it all day (I know, get a life, really.) Of course it will be nice to see the legendary and elusive Lose Track rule at last set down in black and blue. My impression is that so far it has mostly referred to one card losing track of another (Throne Room loses Mining Village, Watchtower loses Border Village, etc.) but apparently here a card can also lose track of itself.

One aspect I'm having trouble wrapping my head around is that the Hermit could lose itself for the purposes of trashing itself, but not for gaining a Madman. OK I guess the idea is you read both cards (Hermit and Scheme) simultaneously and decide which to carry out first, and if the Hermit is not around when it's time to execute it, you can still remember its instructions and follow the ones you can, fair enough.

Then I'm trying to think if there's any way between the Scheming and the Hermitting that the Hermit could be buried or end up anywhere other than the top of the deck, and if not why it would count as being Lost Track Of, since as I understand it for example you can still Watchtower a card from the top of your deck. But of course we don't know how many other as yet unimaginable on-discard effects that might intervene will emerge in the next week. And I guess Lose Track may just be one those arcane realms kind of like quantum mechanics where at a certain point you have to give up on trying to understand it intuitively, and just trust the math.

(Also yes I can see how it must be so annoying when people theorize about the rules without having all the facts, enough to make you wish you'd just shut up in the first place, but hey it's kind of inevitable people will muse and speculate when they're totally excited about something, that's just human nature, there it is what are you going to do.)

A final thought though: even if for lack of 'if you do' we eschew the semantic temptation to read 'trash this and gain a Madman' as one instruction - rather like "stop at the store on the way home and pick up some milk" where the consequentially is implied even if not explicit (though I suppose to a Dominion player one ought really to say "stop at the store on the way home; if you do, pick up some milk") - even granting that logical consistency, separating them and allowing a Madman to materialize ex nihilo does at least seem to belie the expressed thematic concept, that of cards turning into other cards.

Basically, the way I see it is this: You have Scheme and Hermit out, and didn't buy anything. You enter Cleanup, and proceed to discard your inplay cards. More specifically, each card receives the event "Discard this from play". Scheme sees that and says "Hey, pick an in play card to put on top your deck, then discard me." Simultaneously, Hermit says "You didn't buy anything, and you're discarding me from play? Alright, trash me and get a Madman." Since two things are happening at the same time, you choose which one goes first (just the same as you would if multiple Treasuries and Alchemists were going on top your deck at end of turn). So, you choose Scheme first and toss something on top, and then Hermit's effect is still there. The event already happened and you follow through on it. After all, "You didn't buy anything, and you're discarding me from play? Alright, trash me and get a Madman" makes no mention of needing to actually do anything with the Hermit in order to get the Madman; just that it's another thing that happens. So, that's how Scheme/Hermit turns people who get confused by rules into Madmen.

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Dominion General Discussion / Re: Buying Physical Dominion
« on: July 25, 2012, 12:00:59 am »
Base, so you can introduce new players easily (need to have more victims!)
Intrigue, so you can have an extra set of base cards and thus can have eight person Dominion parties.
Seaside, because Tactician is fun.

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I'd say Curses are fine to leave out for a first game, because their entire point is to not "add" to the gameplay, but to "subtract" from it, and that's just not the kind of new experience you want to give a new player-it's like telling the them the rules of football, handing them a ball, then tackling them to the ground.

I'd say the key things to introduce a new player two are the four types of plusses, attacks, reactions, and trashing. For that, the standard "First Game" set does well...

...but hey, we have all these sets out, let's see what else we can come up with.

First, the standard intro gets one thing right, definitely. Market and Village are fantastic introductions, both due to being so vanilla, but because of the different roles they serve. Both are spammable, but having each out leads to the introduction of the difference between +1 Action and +2 Action.

So, Market and Village.

We need an Attack, in order to teach that Dominion isn't just multiplayer Solitaire (just quite close to it, but with prettier pictures). Militia is a fine one, of course, but we're looking for something different. Spy is way too annoying, the trashing attacks don't sit right, and like hell we're inflicting something like Ghost Ship on a new player. So, I'd say it's between Cutpurse and Bureaucrat. Cutpurse is annoying in multiplayer games if everyone jumps on the train-by comparison, Bureaucrat is about as nonthreatening as Attacks get. In addition, Bureaucrat teaches another lesson: Silver is a nice card. An absolute beginner will look at it and think "Yay, I can deprive them of a card in hand!", transition to "eh, what does this card even do?", before having a "a-ha!" moment and realizing that every usage of Bureaucrat is like buying a Silver and putting it on top! And you still get to buy something else! Really, there's a lot to learn for a new player all in that one card.

So, we're up to Market, Village, and Bureaucrat.

We have an Attack, so we need a Reaction. The canon example is Moat, and indeed there's only a few Reactions that make a nice contrast with our Bureaucrat. Bureaucrat is way too weak to justify Moat, but Secret Chamber is plenty sucky to combine with it ("They play Bureaucrat, I can move all my victory cards to the top of my deck! Take that!"). It does lead into another thought, though...

Market, Village, Bureaucrat, and Secret Chamber.

Why not a three card combo? Village plus handsize reducers plus "draw up to" is a combo, and an easy enough one to see. In addition, a draw until card is a counter to Bureaucrat, also leading to the lesson that a counter to an attack needn't be blue with different words. So, we get Library, filling out our draw role quite well.

Market, Village, Bureaucrat, Secret Chamber, Library.

I'd say some trashing is in order. Remodel and Mine we're trying to avoid, and you know what? That's fine! We need a strong opener as well, something that dares a player "look at me, see what I can do for you" from the start of the game. An absolute new games player will skip over this one, but someone a bit more savvy will think "what is the point of this card? Let me try it." and they'll find out that opening Remake and getting rid of Copper and changing Estates into Silver is a nice springboard. Additionally, we score some interaction with Bureaucrat here...someone who's dedicated to Remaking their Estates will find that hard to do when they keep being sent to the top of their deck. It seems mean, but I can't really find it in myself to feel bad for buffing Bureaucrat. Remake is a powerful card that will reward a daring player, and a worthy lesson to be on this board.

So, we have Market, Village, Library, Secret Chamber, Bureaucrat, and Remake. We have four slots left, and many lessons to teach. We're skipping Cursegivers due to being newbie unfriendly (we want to encourage players to play cards, not disallow them from doing so), we don't want VP chips or mats or anything, and we don't want any Alchemy or on-gain. So, what else can we put down?

Well, alternate treasures, for one. Something a little shinier than Gold/Silver/Copper, to hint at the lesson that treasure is a thing to buy too and not just when you don't feel like buying your eighth Village. The best one for this is easily Royal Seal, as it's basically Silver with an upside, and it's a pretty neat effect, too!

With Royal Seal added, we have three fives, two fours, a three, and a two. We need a bit more low cost in there.

First Game has Workshop and Woodcutter. We already have a Workshop-like effect in Bureaucrat, so there's no need there. Woodcutter, though....there's really no replacing it, and it's an interesting contrast with Silver. The difference between the two is a lesson core to Dominion's gameplay, so we'll keep this one in.

As for other simple effects, I'm thinking Oasis. It's a simple enough card, it's a soft counter to Bureaucrat (see that again? It's our only attack, so if people just see the attack bit and buy and play it a bunch, it's best to have everything else respond to it to match how a new player would feel), and it also combos with Library. Additionally, it can be spammed like Market but without the annoying decision paralysis that comes from playing four Markets in a turn and having five buys with six coins to agonize over.

This leaves us one more slot to be filled, and I can't find myself not wanting another two cost. Our options are limited, though. Taking out complex, redundant, and new player unfriendly cards, we leave ourselves with Courtyard, Crossroads, and Duchess. Now, it's a little complex compared to the others, but it's not impossible to parse, and it resonates with all of our set's themes (Silvers are to be noticed and compared to, Bureaucrat is a thing, teach fundamental lessons), so I feel Duchess is a great card here. Additionally, new players will find it a nice moment of discovery when they realize they can "improve" their deck buy snagging a Duchess along with the Duchy compared to not doing so. Additionally, this will hopefully push newbies away from buying Estates willy nilly which is always a noble cause.

So, our final set of ten:

$5: Market, Library, Royal Seal
$4: Bureaucrat, Remake
$3: Woodcutter, Village, Oasis
$2: Secret Chamber, Duchess

Is this the absolute best board for a new player? Honestly, no, not really. The canonical "First Game" set is hard to top. However, I'd say this comes fairly close. It's a better bet if whoever you're teaching isn't afraid of a little complexity, as I feel my board sacrifices some of the initial elegance of "First Game" in exchange for more interaction between the cards and rewarding a keen eye to details.

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I have very little input that has not been said, but I wish to note that DXV's posts have given me some very enjoyable laughter, and for that, I thank you all.

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Puzzles and Challenges / Re: By the rules: speaking
« on: July 05, 2012, 07:13:16 am »
When an opponent tries to do something illegal like grabbing all the Colonies on turn 1 and announcing: "I've won!"?

You don't need to speak for that. Depending on who you're playing with and how well you know them, a punch to the face speaks volumes.

I can think of one instance where speaking is essentially necessary. Torturer; if you have an empty hand and a non-empty curse pile, there's not much of an easy way beyond a minigame of charades (or writing a note but that's cheating) of if you're "choosing to discard two" or simply temporarily deaf and blind and can't parse the Torturer being played a third time.

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Feedback / Re: Future DominionStrategy tournaments?
« on: December 15, 2011, 12:43:12 am »
Multiplayer tournaments. I understand that 1v1 Dominion is the most "pure", competitively, but 3 and 4 player games add a new dimension that I think is worth exploring.

Of course, scheduling would be a pain too, but I'm sure that could be worked around relatively easily (get batches of entrants that have similar availabilities, and then set up meeting times on Isotropic).

Tangent: I just had an interesting idea not at all dependent on the above-a multiplayer multigame series that starts with, say, 4 players and then dwindles-lowest score drops out. So, Alice, Bob, Charlie, and Dvorak play a game, Charlie scores the least, then Alive, Bob, Dvorak play, and then Alice gets the fewest amount of points, so then Bob and Dvorak play, and then Bob strikes a blow for generically named examples everywhere and beats Dvorak and goes on to the next round.

Edit: Oh, yeah, timing. Two a year sounds just fine-often enough to be planned and trained for, far enough away that they don't become trite and overdone.

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2011 / Re: 2011 DominionStrategy.com Championships Registration
« on: November 23, 2011, 12:57:35 am »
Sounds like fun.

1) ST218
2) Eastern US (GMT -5)

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