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Messages - brewmaster27

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Rules Questions / Re: I got DOMINIONED! Ill-gotten-gains AND Embargo?
« on: April 18, 2014, 09:14:46 pm »
So what's the deal? I thought the ill-gotten-gains effect would resolve before the "embargo" effect (doesn't the on-gain effect resolve immediately???). But instead, it was the opposite and I lost the game I should have won. Can someone please clarify the rule with embargoed ill-gotten-gains pile when the curses are about to run out? It seems counter-intuitive that the embargo would supercede the card's natural on-gain effect. :o
Embargo is "when-buy," Ill-Gotten Gains is "when-gain." You buy a card before you gain it - buying it causes you to gain it. So when-buy effects resolve before when-gain effects.

Thanks! Only wish I had known this before I lost this winnable game  :(

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Rules Questions / Re: I got DOMINIONED! Ill-gotten-gains AND Embargo?
« on: April 18, 2014, 08:49:11 pm »
I should also note that mid-game he bought an embargo and embargoed the embargo pile (with 4 embargoes left in it). I guess he got tired of me spamming embargo. It also forced me not to try to draw out the embargoes with the quarries.

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Rules Questions / I got DOMINIONED! Ill-gotten-gains AND Embargo?
« on: April 18, 2014, 08:47:13 pm »
So I was playing online dominion with one of the most interesting boards I've seen in a while... cards were duke, ill gotten gains, embargo, quarry, pirate ship, beggar, baron, golem, farming village and I don't remember the rest because they weren't really relevant. Also I should note the game started with shelters instead of estates, which factors in heavily to this particular game.

So I go early pirate ship/embargo, and he gets silver and a quarry I think. So I'm pirate shipping his coppers and I also hit a quarry, but he had already used it and a silver to get 3 early ill-gotten gains before I finally embargoed the pile to stop him. So I wind up with 3 curses in my deck... but he's getting his treasures thinned out by my pirate ship. Then I start buying up a few farming villages to chain my embargoes/necropolis and at the same time, use my pirate ship more. I also was able to get 4 golds in my deck before embargoing the gold pile as well. He didn't even get a chance to get any golds before I do this. Then I embargoed the pirate ship (but at this point he already had 1 in his deck as well), and also the golem pile when I saw he bought a potion. I get 2 early provinces using my pirate ship and the golds I have before he finally caves in and decides to take a pirate ship and the curse that comes with it. Then he winds up buying a few other embargoed cards (including a province, golem, and another pirate ship and taking the curses with them). Before too long he has 5 curses compared to my 4 (I took another province after I had embargoed it earlier). So at this point I had been whittling down the quarry pile as to force 3 piles empty, and to seal the deal, I figure I'd take an ill gotten gains from the embargoed pile (thinking incorrectly this would give him the last curse, and I'd get an ill gotten gains without a penalty). To my surprise, it was ME who received the last curse from the pile. Then with no curses left, he got lucky draws and proceeded to draw the last provinces beating me by 6 points!!! (This probably never would have happened if a curse remained in the pile).

So what's the deal? I thought the ill-gotten-gains effect would resolve before the "embargo" effect (doesn't the on-gain effect resolve immediately???). But instead, it was the opposite and I lost the game I should have won. Can someone please clarify the rule with embargoed ill-gotten-gains pile when the curses are about to run out? It seems counter-intuitive that the embargo would supercede the card's natural on-gain effect. :o

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Dominion General Discussion / Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« on: March 14, 2014, 05:39:30 pm »

I notice now you actually said 'cards', not actions. So I suppose Platinum qualifies as it gives $5, and is a treasure so "non-terminal". Similarly I guess Bank can sometimes qualify, and Lio rightfully points out Death Cart can also give $5, and it's trashing is sometimes a benefit, so I guess that kinda counts as well. Beyond that... I can't think of much. Adventurer can give at least $4. Pirate Ship can give arbitrary amounts, but it's slow to do that and gives no other benefits. Vault, Secret Chamber and Storeroom can give more money than that, with other benefits - but that $4 comes at a huge cost of a big chunk of hand size.

Precisely. When I consider a card's "usefulness" I consider it with respect to its individual cost, what its synergies are, and also its opportunity cost (buying that card, as opposed to another card of equal cost) among other things. I know transmute is a bad card generally, but all it costs is a measly potion to get it. Also, there are certain boards where I feel like it can shine, (ie: if it's the only trasher card or other alchemy-based synergies are present). I think on boards that are predominantly alchemy-based, it's a decent choice because you can use it to get an early gold on a 4/3 split by simply buying a potion.


Now don't get me wrong. I don't think Harvest is the best $5 ever, or even really an especially good one. But if there were a $5 card which just said "+$4", I think it'd be up there with the power $5's. That's a lot of economy from just one action. Of course that isn't what Harvest does. The way it works means earlygame, +$2 is quite likely, while later on +$3 is common and +$4 happens more than +$2, but if you draw your whole deck, then there's a good chance Harvest is just dead. That makes it... pretty tough to make work to a level which is worth the buy, but it can be done, it's not unreasonable. For that reason, I think it's a weaker $5 card, but not the worst $5, and certainly not the worst card.

If there was a $5 card which just said "$+4", not only would it be up there with the power 5's, it'd just be completely over-powered. But indeed there are cards that can give you +$4 much more easily. The example that comes to my mind is Poor House, which at a cost of $1, is the cheapest card in the entire game. And as you pointed out, the effect of Harvest is way different than merely giving you $4. In fact, the chances of getting that $4 using Harvest is very, very slim because in order to take advantage of it, you'd literally have to base your deck around Harvest (and being that it's a terminal action, that's not a very good idea). The only other time I could see it as potentially useful is if your deck was filled up with junk (like curses, coppers, estates, ruins, or other garbage) and there was simply no other options to discard for benefit and gain more cards. But if your deck is already that bloated with junk, you're probably going to lose the game anyway.

Maybe it's not the overall worst card in Dominion... especially with stinkers like Duchess, Scout and Thief, but in terms of value, I think it is the worst in the game. At least Duchess, Scout, and Thief are reasonably priced ($2/$4) and have situational-type benefits. Same thing applies to Transmute, Secret Chamber, Moat, and so on. I just don't see a situational benefit to Harvest because there's almost always a <=$5 card that would be more useful given any particular subset of cards. Just my two cents though.

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Dominion General Discussion / Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« on: February 20, 2014, 01:12:20 pm »
Of all the Dominion cards, I have to say the worst one is Harvest. Surprisingly, that card didn't make the list of overall worst cards. I think what makes it the worst is the fact that it's terminal and really doesn't fit in well with most decks. Let's think about it analytically:

In games with other 5-cost cards and swindler, it just becomes swindler fodder.

In games that lend themselves to spamming a certain card or combo, you don't get the benefit of the +coins per differently named cards. Plus it has the added disadvantage of discarding those potentially useful cards!

In games that do lend themselves to using a variety of different cards, you'd almost certainly rather pick up another 5-cost non-terminal card than harvest. Even just taking a duchy would probably be better in most circumstances.

Best case scenario, harvest reveals 4 differently named cards. You get +4 coins. A lot of things could have given you just as much money, with the added benefit of +actions, +cards, etc. (especially in games where TR/KC are present).

In games with tunnel, you could use it to reveal 4 tunnels to get 4 golds (if you were lucky or had the observation type cards to make it happen), but then you'd only get +1 coin from it that turn, so it's not useful for a short-term gain (which is why you'd be playing it in the first place). Plus if you wanted to get 4 golds right away, you'd probably have just as good or better luck with treasure map.

For all the hate here about transmute, I actually like it sometimes. It works well as a starter to turn estates into gold, and then from that point on, acts as a situational-type trasher. Not to mention, it synergies all so nicely with vineyard.

Harvest gets the worst card vote from me.

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