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1

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: August 09, 2012, 01:33:14 pm »

Are you implying what I think you're implying? 

only jokingly.
one of the largest problems (for others) with my set was its overuse of Curses, since a) they hurt, and b) there's a limited supply. Donald X has solved both these issues by adding Ruins to the game. they're still bad, they still clog up your deck, but a) they don't hurt so much because they have small possibly positive effects and don't hurt your VP score, and b) they're a whole other stack from Curses so there's plenty of them. frankly, i would have proposed something similar but i was trying so hard to stay within the structure of known Dominion. Donald didn't have this restriction and has blatantly ignored expectations with this set. i applaud him and am anxious to get my hands on Dark Ages.

2

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: August 09, 2012, 01:08:26 pm »

yeah, uncanny is one word; i can think of others...
what's more, not only does he call Rats his favorite card in Dominion, there's to be 20 of them and another card which i'm guessing will allow you to give them to other players which was also in an early design of my Rats (one of the first iterations had you place the Rats on another player's deck after you played it).

3

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: August 08, 2012, 04:14:48 pm »

well, i just wanted to point out that i called it ALL here. so many of the problems you guys had with my cards are now present in Dark Ages:
a. $1 cards
b. new types of Curses (Ruins)
c. cards that let you get things from the trash
d. cards that care about the order of the supply stack they are in
e. there's even a card that cares what Treasures you have in hand before the buy phase (which was an earlier design for Relief that i might go back to)

4

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas

« on: January 20, 2012, 06:20:15 pm »

Collector's Item
$30 - Victory
When you gain this, you win the game.

(note: there is only one Collector's Item card in its kingdom.)

5

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: January 16, 2012, 08:18:35 pm »

Well it might be important to know if I uncover a Rat or not upon buying something off of that pile. If I have this knowledge I'll likely hold off from buying it until I have enough buys and money for both, or any combination of card X with N Rats directly underneath.

you're absolutely right. it is important to know that. and i'm saying that, yes, you can look to see the order BUT i don't think that has to be printed on the card. it can be explained on the rule sheet, just as every expansion and promo already includes.

6

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: January 15, 2012, 10:38:08 pm »

Are we allowed to peek at the pile containing Rats to see the order of the cards?

i don't think this has been made explicit in the rules, since a situation where this would be important has never presented itself. i would thus assume, yes, you can look at the order. but this is one of those 'rules' that i don't think needs to be on the card itself, just as Black Market has necessary understandings that are not printed on it.
but i do now think that the "Cards from this pile may only be gained from the top." text is necessary unfortunately.

7

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: January 15, 2012, 08:46:57 am »

I assume you can only gain the card on top of the pile?

yes, that's my intent. thanks for the question Glooble. i'm thinking i don't need to say that on the card, because the top card of a Kingdom pile represents which Kingdom it is. but maybe this is just an assumption of mine. rules gurus? do i need to be explicit about this?

if so, then will this do?
Rats – Action-Attack – 1$
Trash this card and each other player gains a Curse.
Setup: Add an extra Kingdom card pile to the supply. Then, shuffle that pile and the Rats pile together into a single pile. Cards from this pile may only be gained from the top.

and how about this new version of Morgue?
Morgue - Action - 4$
"Reveal all cards in your discard pile. Choose one of them and put it into your hand."

8

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: January 15, 2012, 07:54:57 am »

okay, i've just thought up a whole new version of my infamous Rats card. one that might satisfy my critics out there... or gain me new ones 

Rats – Action-Attack – 1$
Trash this card and each other player gains a Curse.
Setup: Add an extra Kingdom card pile to the supply. Then, shuffle that pile and the Rats pile together into a single pile.

9

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: How would Dominion look if it was designed as a computer game?

« on: December 05, 2011, 05:24:02 pm »

Maybe I didn't explain clearly.  I meant, what if Dominion was designed to be played on Isotropic from the get-go?  The game is still essentially the same, but we are no longer restricted by the disadvantages of physical cards.  Philosopher's Stone variants would be feasible since they would no longer unbelievably delay games.

if it's just going to be a card game, except digital, then i wouldn't change anything.
that's why i suggested more radical changes for a videogame conversion.

10

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Thought experiment: On-buy Princess?

« on: December 05, 2011, 04:14:59 pm »

for example, if the card is called "Walled Mart" you could add...

"... When you buy this, you may not buy another Walled Mart from the supply this turn."

EDIT: fixed my dumbness

11

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: How would Dominion look if it was designed as a computer game?

« on: December 05, 2011, 04:10:42 pm »

i guess you could do it like a simplified RTS like Plants vs. Zombies. instead of Sunflowers, you'd buy Villages/Kingdoms  to put on a map that would then churn out Gold, Actions and Card abilities at random intervals. but to buy Estates/Duchy/Province you have to convert your Kingdoms, thus losing some of your ability spawning. and maybe these converted-into-VP-Towers could be attacked, like in a Tower defense.

12

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: December 03, 2011, 02:26:28 pm »

Saying "not to be insulting" doesn't make it okay to say something insulting.  Not to be insulting.

i truly did not mean to be insulting and added that comment because i was afraid i would be taken the wrong way. i guess i should have just re-worded it from the start (as i have edited it above), but i feel very strongly on this issue. sorry if you took offense, but i took offense at having my creative process labeled as 'completely the wrong way to go about it.'

13

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: December 03, 2011, 12:39:57 pm »

Overall (this is a problem I find with my own card-day-dreams also), the thing is that people tend to think of an image, a style, a thing or object that they want a card to be, then think of what mechanics it should employ. Really we should all be thinking of good card mechanics to play, and then worry about what to call them after the fact (and whether they fit into a set). It's too easy to get hung up and on what you've called the card and fuss over whether the action/mechanics match it or not. So in your case - whether or not the current incarnation is successful - you've hung your hat on the fact that you want a card to embody rats, and so from that have drawn that at least a) it can't be expensive and b) has to occur in multiples. You've also gone so far as to stipulate that you want it cost $1. The card has changed radically, yet the name always remains the same and it generally has been a hinderance to the well being of the card from what I see.

Sure, you might spot a conceptual niche that doesn't have a card etc, but that's more to do with unexploited mechanics and thematic derivation. So, while you may have arrived at a good solution, this is completely the wrong way to go about it in general.

This should be framed and hung over the fireplace.  I don't have a fireplace, but this post is a good reason to get one.

This is true of probably any game, but particularly in Dominion where the flavor is a lot less (and the mechanics more) important than in many other games.

By far my most favorite cards in Dominion are the ones with cool mechanics (Jester, Minion, Golem) rather than the ones with cool flavor (Saboteur, Baron, Jack of All Trades).  I do admire clever flavor, but that's not why Dominion is a great game or why it continues to sustain my interest.

and while i am dedicated to solid mechanics, i completely disagree with both of you on this point. not that you're wrong. not at all. only that i also am right.
there are at least 2 ways of going about things, in this case card creation. from the ground up and top down. if i'm inspired by a concept and then work hard enough to make it work, that creation is equal in merit to a card created based on mechanics and then dressed up in flavor after the fact. both will appeal to different people. and there are good and bad things to both approaches. but to say your favored approach is the 'right' one, should be the 'only' one, is too limited a view.
i just want to stand up for those of us who'd rather dream first and do the math later.

EDIT: sorry if i offended anybody.

14

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: December 02, 2011, 09:21:38 pm »

a) not everybody goes the cursing route
b) even the people who go for 3 Rats won't get to curse all that often, unless they focus on it at the cost of building their deck in other ways
c) if one person decides to really go Rats crazy, there might only be one person in a 4 player game who bought enough Rats to curse.

but that's the point of Rats. it's a weak card that gets better the more you have. if you don't get on board early, when they're weak, you'll miss out on capitalizing on their strength later. this is a solid strategic choice and it makes the card interesting and, imo, fair. but i need to do more playtesting, which is to happen soon...

and @rinkworks: no, i didn't think you were complimenting the design of Rats when you said they might bought 'just because.' but my response is that that criticism is actually a strength in my mind. i said that i wanted Rats to cost 1$ from the start, but i didn't really say why: for 2 reasons, the 1$ makes them both small and insidious. they sneak their way into decks by being a cheap second buy. but they don't really do anything until they reach a critical mass. i like this about the card.

15

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: November 30, 2011, 11:07:43 pm »

Chapel + Rats says hello. The cantrip nature means you'd be able to trash shit loads too without conflict. Load 'em up with curses ASAP - gg. God forbid there's some pawns about for cycling +buys.

if Chapel is in the game, who's gonna be worried about curses? you could get rid of them faster than the Rats could give them out

16

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: November 30, 2011, 10:16:22 am »

For me a cantrip can't be a $1 card.
If you compare Rats to Pearl Diver, which are the most basic cantrips and are $2 cards. Rats seems superior to me than those two.
So it's at least a $2 card.

Pearl Diver lets you do something every time it's played, so it's like cantrip+. but Rats just cantrips unless you manage to play 3 on one turn. so it's 'less' than Pearl Diver in most cases. i priced it at 1$ precisely because i want folks to pick it up with extra buys. the idea that players will pick them up 'just because', as rinkworks pointed out, means that getting to 3 on a turn will actually be harder (in other than 2 player games) and that suits me just fine.

17

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: November 30, 2011, 07:52:03 am »

so, from the beginning, i wanted the Rats card to do 3 things: 1) be weak enough to justify a 1$ cost, 2) be strong enough in multiple to convince players to buy them, and 3) interact with Curses somehow. after a lot of thought, and a lot of versions, i think i've finally found something that satisfies all 3 conditions...

Rats – Action-Attack – 1$
+1 Card, +1 Action, "If this is the third time you played a Rats this turn, each other player gains a Curse."

also a proposed addition to Inheritance to keep it from being abused...

Inheritance – Action – 5$
“You may not reveal Reaction cards while this in play. Gain a Curse. If you do, gain a Duchy and a Gold. Otherwise, gain a Silver."

18

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: November 28, 2011, 03:44:02 am »

Combos, or efficiency, or cost, or whether or not you want to buy it, or how good the card is, or any amount of playtesting has nothing to do with it being broken. It's broken because it's possible to get an unlimited number of actions. It's broken with or without Diadem, but Diadem is an example of how you can use it to get an unlimited number of coins.

ok, it took me a while to puzzle out what you guys meant. i see now that Rats can be broken IF you buy a ton of them right at the start. you could have just said that.
so, i need to fix my broken Rats...

Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card, +1 Action, "If there are an even number of Rats in play, +1 Card, +1 Action. While Rats are in the supply, if a player gains a Curse, he may gain a Rats."

^apparently, this is the only way they'll work the way i want them to. i was really attached to the "... per Rats in play" text, but there seems to be no simple way to make it work. i think this eliminates the final major problem with these critters. let me know...

19

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: November 27, 2011, 10:53:37 pm »

Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, "If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile. While Rats are in the supply, if a player gains a Curse, he may gain a Rats."

is this better? i dropped 'instead' so you gain the Curse AND a Rats. it is meant to be global.

That looks like a playtestable idea. It's still far too strong for a $1 card, mind; I'd test it at $5 and see how it goes.

look, nobody's gonna buy a card that does nothing for 5$. the 1$ price is necessary to tempt people into buying the first one. especially in non-Cursing games.
but i am gonna playtest this, as i have been playtesting all these cards.

People buy Cities all the time when all they're getting out of them is a Village effect - it's a calculated investment for when they become VillageLabs. This card is subject to the same sort of dynamic.

I think that because of the discard-after-two clause it's not worth $5. Keep in mind that the third one goes back to being a regular old cantrip. Assuming you can get them together, every two is worth a Village and a Lab, so depending on how often that will tend to happen,  I'd say it should be worth either $3 or $4.

Actually, come to think of it, this card is broken. Think of a deck containing four Rats and the Diadem. Play and discard Rats 1 and 2. Play and discard Rats 3 and 4. You now have Rats 1 and 2 in your hand again, and 3 actions. Repeat as many times as you like. You now have limitless $. Of course, you're still limited by how many buys you have, but an infinite source of anything is not a good idea. In fact, it's probably never going to be a good idea to be able to discard a card after you play it such that it's possible to play it again. Certainly not a cantrip. But even if it's not, it'll still be possible to have enough card drawers and/or spare actions to play a card again and again and again in one turn.

A fix for this would be to set aside every two Rats and discard them at your next clean-up phase, or to only give you the second card and action if there are an even number of Rats in play. Both of these would require some clunkier wording, but would be equivalent to the current version other than not allowing you to play each card more than once per turn (or, you know, thrice if you KC it, but you know what I mean).

first of all, i'm sure there are many 'broken' 5 card 'comboes' already in the game. secondly, how do Rats 3&4 assure that Rats 1&2 are in your hand? they don't. why does being efficient when you have 4 or more of them in your deck make them broken? in my playtesting, there are other things you want to buy in the early game rather than "waste" your single buy on a Rats. a player would have to commit to Rats from the get go for this scenario to even be a possibility. yes, when they went up to 3 they were broken. but only going up to 2, i think you guys are giving them too much credit.

20

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Noob's Expansion - Part 2 - Come rip it apart even more...

« on: November 27, 2011, 03:44:53 pm »

It lets you trash the Estates, if in the situation you've inherited too much green, too quickly. In a lot of cases, you just want to deplete the pile, you don't actually want the +1 the Estate gives you. It sounds odd, but it is sometimes a way you can win. The idea, thematically, is the "architect" builds an alternate victory path.

but it goes against the flavor of the card. an architect is someone who lays plans to build structures, like estates. saying that he 'builds' a path to victory is malarky. practically every card in Dominion does that. it seems to me you're using that inverted reasoning to justify putting everything on this card. and that would be my one strong and abiding criticism of all your designs: too much on one card. such cards are actually not fun to play with because 1) they're confusing to know how to use, 2) their complexity usually makes them too narrow ironically, and 3) they're complicated rule text kills any flavor you were going for.
needed to be said. simplify.

21

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: November 27, 2011, 03:35:54 pm »

Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, "If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile. While Rats are in the supply, if a player gains a Curse, he may gain a Rats."

is this better? i dropped 'instead' so you gain the Curse AND a Rats. it is meant to be global.

That looks like a playtestable idea. It's still far too strong for a $1 card, mind; I'd test it at $5 and see how it goes.

look, nobody's gonna buy a card that does nothing for 5$. the 1$ price is necessary to tempt people into buying the first one. especially in non-Cursing games.
but i am gonna playtest this, as i have been playtesting all these cards.

22

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: November 27, 2011, 01:32:12 am »

You are wrong. Watchtower reacts to "if you gain", not "if you would gain". You do gain the Curse - and so Inheritance's clause is triggered - but you can then immediately trash it.

gotcha. thanks. i still think that's a fair interaction, if you happen to have those cards.

Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, "If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile. While Rats are in the supply, if a player gains a Curse, he may gain a Rats."

is this better? i dropped 'instead' so you gain the Curse AND a Rats. it is meant to be global.

23

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: November 26, 2011, 08:21:43 pm »

Inheritance strikes me as very strong in combination with Watchtower and Trader and weak in their absence. This may or may not be the effect you are looking for.

The thing about your wording on Rats is that (a) it is a special-case rule, and special-case rules are annoying, and (b) it shuts down a lot of interesting interactions it might have with other kingdom cards.

(But, congratulations! You've managed to create a card that will be bought from the Black Market even less frequently than Treasure Map!)

the "special case' text on Rats doesn't really shut down many interactions. only ones that would have you gain it in other ways than buying it. like Workshop and... what?

Ironworks, University, Upgrade, Swindler, Saboteur, Develop, Black Market, Border Village, Haggler, Remodel, Expand, Remake. It's quite a list.

well, i've realized that nobody's going to buy a Curse anyway, so i've dumped that idea. thanks for playing

Inheritance with Watchtower usually becomes: Gain a Curse and trash it immediately, Gain a Duchy and trash it unless it's late in the game, Gain a Gold and top-deck it.
Inheritance with Trader becomes either: Gain a Silver, or: Gain a Curse, a Gold and a Silver.

with Watchtower: if you trash the Curse with Watchtower, then you can't gain the Gold&Duchy. you have to at least gain the Curse and then you can use Watchtower on either the Gold or Duchy, if you wish (possibly trashing the Duchy and putting the Gold on top of your deck) if you use the Watchtower on the Curse, you'll only gain a Silver.
with Trader: either Gain a Silver; or gain a Curse, a Gold and a Duchy (you can trader either of the last two for a Silver each)
i think these possible interactions are fair on a 5$ card. there are certainly stronger interactions on existing cards.

24

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: November 26, 2011, 07:47:26 pm »

Inheritance strikes me as very strong in combination with Watchtower and Trader and weak in their absence. This may or may not be the effect you are looking for.

The thing about your wording on Rats is that (a) it is a special-case rule, and special-case rules are annoying, and (b) it shuts down a lot of interesting interactions it might have with other kingdom cards.

(But, congratulations! You've managed to create a card that will be bought from the Black Market even less frequently than Treasure Map!)

the "special case' text on Rats doesn't really shut down many interactions. only ones that would have you gain it in other ways than buying it. like Workshop and... what?

and Inheritance doesn't work with Watchtower and Trader because of its "If you do... " text. right?

EDIT: i'm thinking of replacing Miracle with this card, or just adding this card. it was inspired by the Juggler thread and i really like it. what do you think?

Wheel of Fortune - Action - 4$
Reveal the top card of the Fortune deck. Gain a copy of that card. Shuffle the Fortune deck.
(Before the game, make a Fortune deck out of 3 copies of Gold, 2 copies of Duchy and 1 copy of Curse.)

and yet another go at the Rats...

Rats – Action – 1$
+1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, "If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile. If a player would gain a Curse, he may gain a Rats instead."

25

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plague (Fan Expansion for Dominion)

« on: November 26, 2011, 05:30:40 pm »

Rats – Action-Curse – 1$
"Worth -1 Victory" / +1 Card per Rats in play, +1 Action per Rats in play, "If there are 2 Rats in play, immediately put them into your discard pile. Rats can only be gained by buying them during your Buy phase."

Your last sentence sounds like a cure that's worse than the disease. If you don't want them treated as Curses for the purposes of, say, Mountebank, then create a new Subtype for them. It's not as if anything interacts with the Curse subtype.

but i DO wanted them counted as Curses for such things like Mountebank and Fortune Teller. that's exactly the point. it's the whole "gain a Curse" thing that becomes tricky. that last sentence solves that while allowing them to still be Curses.

slight update to this card...
 from...
Inheritance – Action – 4$
“Gain a Curse. If you do, gain a Gold. Otherwise, gain a Silver."
 to...
Inheritance – Action – 5$
“Gain a Curse. If you do, gain a Duchy and a Gold. Otherwise, gain a Silver."