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Messages - Not a Cylon

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1
Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
« on: September 04, 2012, 07:56:55 pm »
I had a pretty good time of Rats/Bishop on Goko the other day (only possible due to a bug). You get to either play the Rats to get another one, or cash it in for 3 VP now :)

Of course, the usual problem with Bishop applies here — you're giving your opponents a good opportunity to trash their Rats, and they get to replace the card to boot. Also, I did have to be careful not to get too many Rats (I think I only bought two). I think I also got some manner of Village as well, which was nice because otherwise you can draw things dead with your Bishop!

(I don't think it was Fortress that was the Village available. I'd remember having fun with Bishop/Fortress :-) Possibly almost as much fun as I had with Procession/Fortress/Council Room/Forge …)

Still. Very fun card. Yes, it is very very situational, but then a whole bunch of DA cards are situational. (BoM, anyone?) Which I would argue is what's so much fun about the set :-)

2
Goko Dominion Online / Re: Do we know when exactly it's going up?
« on: August 17, 2012, 05:04:46 pm »
I agree with your concerns.  The malware redirect thing is allegedly being fixed today - but frankly with that error and others - I see no way of feeling confident that that's the only place that its a problem.  I'm looking forward to seeing how goko addresses that question on 8/22.

What happens 8/22?

3
Goko Dominion Online / Re: Do we know when exactly it's going up?
« on: August 17, 2012, 05:04:09 pm »
I'm just kind of praying that they don't do something silly like wrap the chat input in quotes or something, in a naive attempt at preventing injection.

It's honestly really strange that that problem even exists.  My suspicion is that they take your chat input, stick it in an object and turn it to json for transport, but at the other end they eval it instead of using JSON.parse.  And that's really just a guess because it's the only reason I can think of that they'd be using eval anyway.

I don't think it's the JSON parsing; seems more likely to be the way it renders the chat string in the window. Probably creates a new div and then sets its innerHTML to the chat text (which will cause scripts to run).

4
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
« on: August 17, 2012, 02:48:04 am »
Goko has done some bumbling in the leadup to the release (the whole process really), but the main deciding factor in its success will be the playability of the product on release.

That's true. Unfortunately, I can tell you there will be plenty to be pissed off about after it's released. The lack of offline play on the iPad, for instance, is a shitstorm waiting to happen.

5
Dominion: Dark Ages Previews / Re: DA, first Printing, Misprinted?
« on: August 16, 2012, 11:23:43 pm »
Anyway Rebuild is as intended, I really did say to put "cheaper" on Catacombs, and one of the Knights costs $4 somehow, even though that means the randomizer doesn't match it (also true for the Knight that's a Victory card).

Is there a mechanics reason why the "cheaper" wording is preferred over "costing less than?"

I'm 99% certain there is not, and that the card just had a metric fuckton of words on it, so Donald decided to save a few words. At any rate, we'll see the Secret History soon enough :)

(Also, I don't see how “cheaper than” is any less precise than “costing less than.” There's really no other sensible interpretation, and any confusion about Potions is no better or worse either way.)

6
Dominion Isotropic / Re: Can anyone not log into isotropic right now?
« on: August 19, 2011, 09:53:11 am »
Gah!! I missed the window of opportunity to see the new shiny awesome :-)

* Not a Cylon says nice words to the uptime deities

7
Dominion Articles / Re: Request: Golem
« on: August 19, 2011, 09:50:10 am »
!!
Fun Golem trick: Use it to play Tactician and keep going :-D I pulled this off once using Golem, Tactician, and Hunting Party - the Golem found a Tactician and a Hunting Party, so I played the Tactician first, then the HP found another HP, and I was off :-)

It would've been even cooler if I'd had another Tactician, of course :-)

You didn't read the thread before posting, did you?

!! Crap … I read a bunch of it, but clearly not all of it :-)

Anyway, the Possession thing was new :P :)

8
Dominion Articles / Re: Request: Golem
« on: August 19, 2011, 08:11:51 am »
Fun Golem trick: Use it to play Tactician and keep going :-D I pulled this off once using Golem, Tactician, and Hunting Party - the Golem found a Tactician and a Hunting Party, so I played the Tactician first, then the HP found another HP, and I was off :-)

It would've been even cooler if I'd had another Tactician, of course :-)

Also, Golem and Possession are really sick together. You get to play your Possession a lot, and then when your opponent Possesses you, he can't use your Golems without risking getting Possessed himself …

(I once got four turns in a row this way: My opponent Possessed me and played my Golem which found a Possession, and so I got to Possess him next turn, and then on my turn I managed to Golem two Possessions … he must've been bored silly by the time he actually got to play again.)

9
Dominion Isotropic / Re: Isotropic Facts & Quirks
« on: July 22, 2011, 02:36:16 pm »
Or, if you've played one copper, the +$ button now plays all the rest. You can't buy a Grand Market at that point anyway, so it's as if you didn't have the money.

(Changing the +$ button so that it's not idempotent would probably screw me up when things are laggy and I'm impatient …)

10
Dominion Isotropic / Re: Gah!! Booted!
« on: July 22, 2011, 12:34:55 pm »
It's early friday evening in europe. And there are holidays (in some countries beginning). And the whether is not nearly as good as it is in the US.

I'm actually in Paris right now, so I'm aware of that :) But normally the usage patterns definitely heavily follow American time zones. (Ain't no-one on when it's noon in Paris.)

11
Dominion Isotropic / Gah!! Booted!
« on: July 22, 2011, 12:08:48 pm »
I was just in the middle of a truly great game when the lag got suddenly really really bad, and at one point when I refreshed I got logged out :-(

Now it tells me “too many players on the server.” But I was there first! >:-|

Anyone know more about this? I didn't realize Friday morning on the West Coast was the big crunch time … ?

12
Game Reports / Re: Game Altering Hands
« on: July 10, 2011, 11:07:06 am »
Is there something missing from that log?  It doesn't seem to add up for me.  I could 12 Villages(or Shanty Towns) played, and everything came off of the same initial King's Court play, so only the starting 1 action was used giving 24 extra actions for Diadem making it worth $26.  The 2 Golds, 2 Silvers, 1 Platinum, and 7 Coppers total $22, and the KCed Tournament is another $3.  I come up with a total of $51, and all costs reduced by $2, so Colonies cost $9.  However, 6 Colonies would still cost $54. 

Also, I am curious, why buy Coppers when there are no Goons (aside from the fact that this turn pretty much won you the game outright, and it didn't matter)?

There's your answer — you're missing three actions from the Kinged Tournament :)

Which goes to show that it'd be really really nice if Isotropic would report the amount that a Diadem is worth, much as it does with Bank …

13
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Combo: Horse Traders/Library
« on: July 10, 2011, 11:02:04 am »
Masquerade is key in a KC game, to the point that both of you clearly should have opened silver/masquerade. That combo is very nifty, of course, and horse traders also works well with minion, menagerie, or watchtower.

I thought about Horse Traders/Minion once. Unfortunately for me, I then learned the hard way that Horse Traders is also extremely powerful against Minion … powerful enough to make me think twice about going after the Minions next time.

14
Other Games / Re: What other games are as good as Dominion?
« on: July 10, 2011, 10:50:51 am »
Power Grid, Troyes: There is no way for anyone to target a specific player without completely sabotaging their own best interests.

Well, in Power Grid, you can gang up on someone by buying extras of the resources they need, and this will hurt them more than you because of how resources get expensive when scarce (real-life economics FTW!). But this only works on whoever's “ahead” at the moment (since they buy last), so it only tends to happen to the one who deserves it :) OTOH, a good player can make sure they're not nominally “ahead” until the very end, which makes for some fun and deep strategy.

(Though since time constraints are being discussed here, I should note that this is a long game. Three hours for 4-5 players, easily. Four if a certain person I know is playing …)

15
Game Reports / Re: Seven-Pile Endings and Other Grand Finales
« on: July 10, 2011, 01:12:02 am »
I'm very fond of <a href="http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110528-203921-3ccc87fc.html">this one</a>, in which I ended the game by buying out all 32 victory cards on one turn (none of the stacks had previously been touched).

Awesome :-D

16
Game Reports / Seven-Pile Endings and Other Grand Finales
« on: July 09, 2011, 03:34:07 pm »
Since we have a thread for big game-altering draws, I thought it'd be fun in a similar vein for people to show off their big finishes. Just now, I achieved a seven-pile ending, winning 395-20, and without even any TR or KC. Just good old fashioned Goons and Bridge … to be exact, 7 Goons and 6 Bridges :D I ended the game on Colonies … and also Duchies, Estates, Cities, Goons, Bridges, and Pearl Divers.

log

Fun as that was, I'm sure others have done better. What crazy-big endings have you pulled off (or fallen to)? “Big” could be a matter of sheer point total, or piles emptied, or reversal of fortune (from negative points to winning by one?), anything that made you go “holy crap” :)

17
I actually won this game, but only barely, and largely by luck (my Peddler got Swindled to a Province, and my opponent miscalculated and ended prematurely). There were a lot of moving parts (Swindlers, Witches, Watchtowers, Peddlers, Envoys), and it was interesting and tense, but I'm not really sure what to make of it in the big picture. I'd love to hear how an expert would summarize it, and it seems like the game could've gone very differently. For instance, did it have to be such a low-money game? It was a Colony game, after all, but we only ever got one Gold each, and no Platinum; he managed to grab one Colony, but that was it. I never really had a strategy going besides ooh-Swindler-and-Witch-are-nasty and maybe-he'll-Swindle-a-Peddler (it was still only lucky that that worked out, though). How would an expert have read this board?

(I do know I made one mistake, which was not Watchtowering the Pearl Diver to the top of my deck when I got it from a Swindler, since I would've been able to use it next turn. Also, since I was hoping to counter Swindler, I probably should've let him keep the Swindler I Swindled (yo dawg). But those are details, and I never got a grasp of the game's broad strokes.)

18
Game Reports / Don't Fear the Pirate Ship
« on: July 09, 2011, 10:37:44 am »
A lot of people seem to hate Pirate Ship, even in 2p games. I've never been that sure why; I often find it easy to counter it: Just find ways to get money besides Treasure. This approach relies heavily on the rest of the board having money Actions, but it works very well where applicable.

This game is about as pure an example of my counter-Pirate-Ship style as there is. Usually the table isn't this favorable to my approach, but it often works nonetheless.

Here's the log. You can actually pretty much see what happened from the final state of the game:

Quote
Not a Cylon wins!
Worker's Villages, Native Villages, and Curses are all gone.

cards in supply: Ambassador, Chancellor, Mountebank, Native Village, Outpost, Pirate Ship, Rabble, Royal Seal, Treasury, and Worker's Village
Default card selection was used.
----------------------

#1 Not a Cylon: 25 points (4 Provinces and an Estate); 30 turns
             opening: Silver / Ambassador
             [26 cards] 6 Native Villages, 6 Worker's Villages, 3 Chancellors, 3 Rabbles, 2 Ambassadors, 1 Mountebank, 1 Estate, 4 Provinces

#2 Haug-MSS: 0 points (a Province, 4 Estates, and 10 Curses); 30 turns
          opening: Pirate Ship / Ambassador
          [70 cards] 4 Native Villages, 4 Worker's Villages, 3 Ambassadors, 3 Pirate Ships, 3 Rabbles, 3 Treasuries, 1 Chancellor, 1 Outpost, 27 Coppers, 6 Silvers, 4 Estates, 1 Province, 10 Curses

----------------------

trash: a Silver and 3 Coppers

I open Silver/Ambassador/Ambassador. Once it's clear he's going hard Pirate Ship, I look at the board and see that it's feasible to go completely Treasureless. Mountebank, Chancellor, and Treasury all provide money, and Native Village is easy to obtain and will serve both to chain together the terminals and to save them up for bigger buys. The Ambassadors get rid of all my Treasure and clog his deck, and the Mountebank provides money and also clogs his deck. (He ends up with no fewer than 27 Coppers and all the Curses.) I wind up getting just three Chancellors and a Mountebank for money; with so many NVs, I could easily stow them until I could play them all in one turn for a Provice, and his deck was getting so slow that it was okay to spend three turns building up (especially if I get to double-Ambassador in the meantime).

The game takes a while (30 turns and lots of extra clicking for Chancellor and NV), but I figure it wasn't my idea to make it dangerous to buy things the easy way :-) (And it would've taken longer had my opponent not thought to remind me to end it on piles by buying the last Worker's Village … hurp derp …)

Note that, according to Popular Buys on councilroom.com, even though I do win when I skip Pirate Ship and lose when I buy it, my Effect Without is pretty strongly negative (-1.18); by my understanding, this means other people actually do better than me when they skip the Ship. So just remember, much as Pirate Ship may sometimes irritate the piss out of you (especially in multiplayer), it's very counterable and definitely not a must-buy.

19
Game Reports / Re: Game Altering Hands
« on: July 09, 2011, 07:55:08 am »
Surprised no-one's posted a KC/Goons game yet. This turn altered the game in the sense that it ended it, with me the winner, having started the turn down 1 VP and gaining … er, 128 VPs …

(log)

Quote
— Not a Cylon's turn 23 —
Not a Cylon draws 2 cards and gets +1 buy from the Wharf.
Not a Cylon had played the Wharf with a King's Court.
Not a Cylon draws 2 cards and gets +1 buy from the Wharf.
Not a Cylon draws 2 cards and gets +1 buy from the Wharf.
Not a Cylon plays a King's Court.
... and plays a Bazaar.
... ... drawing 1 card and getting +2 actions and +$1.
... and plays the Bazaar again.
... ... drawing 1 card and getting +2 actions and +$1.
... and plays the Bazaar a third time.
... ... drawing 1 card and getting +2 actions and +$1.
Not a Cylon plays a Bazaar.
... drawing 1 card and getting +2 actions and +$1.
Not a Cylon plays a King's Court.
... and plays a Wharf.
... ... drawing 2 cards and getting +1 buy.
... and plays the Wharf again.
... ... drawing 2 cards and getting +1 buy.
... and plays the Wharf a third time.
... ... drawing 2 cards and getting +1 buy.
Not a Cylon plays a Bazaar.
... drawing 1 card and getting +2 actions and +$1.
Not a Cylon plays a Wharf.
... drawing 2 cards and getting +1 buy.
Not a Cylon plays a Bazaar.
... drawing nothing and getting +2 actions and +$1.
Not a Cylon plays a King's Court.
... and plays a Goons.
... ... getting +1 buy and +$2.
... ... OrdoAbChao discards 2 cards.
... and plays the Goons again.
... ... getting +1 buy and +$2.
... ... OrdoAbChao only has 3 cards.
... and plays the Goons a third time.
... ... getting +1 buy and +$2.
... ... OrdoAbChao only has 3 cards.
Not a Cylon plays a Goons.
... getting +1 buy and +$2.
... OrdoAbChao only has 3 cards.
Not a Cylon plays a Goons.
... getting +1 buy and +$2.
... OrdoAbChao only has 3 cards.
Not a Cylon plays a Goons.
... getting +1 buy and +$2.
... OrdoAbChao only has 3 cards.
Not a Cylon plays a Goons.
... getting +1 buy and +$2.
... OrdoAbChao only has 3 cards.
Not a Cylon plays a Goons.
... getting +1 buy and +$2.
... OrdoAbChao only has 3 cards.
Not a Cylon plays 5 Silvers.
Not a Cylon buys a Province.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
Not a Cylon buys a Province.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
Not a Cylon buys a Province.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
Not a Cylon buys a Gardens.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
Not a Cylon buys a Gardens.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
Not a Cylon buys a Copper.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
Not a Cylon buys a Copper.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
Not a Cylon buys a Copper.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
Not a Cylon buys a Copper.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
Not a Cylon buys a Copper.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
Not a Cylon buys a Copper.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
Not a Cylon buys a Copper.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
Not a Cylon buys a Copper.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
Not a Cylon buys a Copper.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
Not a Cylon buys a Copper.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
Not a Cylon buys a Copper.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
(Not a Cylon reshuffles.)
(Not a Cylon draws: 2 Coppers, a Forge, and 2 King's Courts.)

All Provinces are gone.
Not a Cylon wins!

Yes, a turn where you wind up with $32, 16 buys, and 6 Goons in play is likely to be a good one :-)

(Hell, I could've just bought a Bazaar and ten Curses and ended the game in victory …)

20
I've long been rather astonished that there's no licensed online version of Dominion — someone is failing to make untold craploads of money :-D

That said, good to hear something is in the works. May said craploads be many and timely :-)

21
Lies, damn lies, and statistics. You've got to be careful what you read into these things. My effect without platinum is 2.94 and without colonies 2.04. Theory's effect without provinces is 3.2 and duchies is 2.73. So how do we win any games? It's probably ending the game on emptying three piles.

Which makes even more sense given Theory's explanation here: You're particularly good at low-VP (or Gardens-type) three-pile endings.

22
"Effect with" and "Win rate with" are rather different things, and we should probably explain this better.  When I wrote the documentation, I didn't realize that it was actually more complex than I thought.

The way "effect with" works is this.  My personal "leverage" for, say, Mountebank, is my win rate when I buy/gain Mountebank minus my overall win rate.  The general population's "leverage" for Mountebank is their win rate when they buy/gain Mountebank minus 1.00 (the global population's win rate).  "Effect with" is how much those two leverages vary, measured in terms of stdev.  (Effect without is derived in a similar way.)

So you might have a much higher win rate when you buy/gain Mountebank than your baseline win rate, but your effect with could still be negative if that difference isn't bigger than the general population's difference.

Ah — so it's not just about how strongly Gold correlates to winning for me, but how much more (or less) strongly than for most people?

This does make more sense — I noticed I have big negative effects for Bank, which means not necessarily that I lose when I buy Banks, but that, compared to most people, I don't exploit Bank very well.

Thanks!

23
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Beginner Game Flow + Strategy
« on: June 16, 2011, 06:13:06 am »
3.  Combining Terminal Actions with "Facilitator" actions.  People see Smithy and Village and go "oh yeah!"  Then, by turn eight, they are wondering why they are not doing as well as they do when they go pure Smithy.  Combining these two types of action cards is much harder than most people think.  In this case, you MUST play your Village first, or it becomes a dead card.  Say you draw a Smithy and four coppers, you play your Smithy and draw another Smithy, a Village, and an Estate.  All three of those cards are dead.  Sure, your deck has the POTENTIAL to go Village -> Smithy + Smithy, but what are the odds of you actually getting your Village first and having at least one Smithy to play after that?  People see a combo that could work amazingly well IF they trust in the heart of the cards, problem is, this isn't Yo-gi-oh, and you're no Pharaoh.

Of course, there's a certain risk/benefit analysis here, too … you may not draw King's Court + King's Court + Hunting Party every turn, but the turn you do is going to be crazy. (But then if there are cards like Laboratory or Hunting Party around, you're more likely to draw the cards you need together anyway.)

Also, the situation is different for different, even similar, combos: Festival/Library is fun partly because Festival has significant benefit without Library, and if Library draws a dead Festival, at least you can discard it for (hopefully) a Treasure instead.

24
So, I'm checking out my Popular Buys page for what info I can find, and I come across a few rather puzzling entries: Namely, Gold and Platinum. My “Effect With” for gold is -0.23 and my “Effect Without” is 0.76. And it's not just because I skip to Platinum in Colony games: Platinum's “Effect with” and ”without” are -0.00 and 0.58.

In other words, it looks like, for me, buying Gold is as strongly associated with losing as skipping Fishing Village is, and skipping Gold is as strongly associated with winning as buying Fishing Village. And Platinum scores similarly to crappy old Saboteur.

WTF? I know correlation isn't causation and all that good crap. And certainly if I don't buy Gold, it's usually because I have some sort of draw engine going strongly enough that I don't feel the need for it — if my 2 Silvers and 4 Coppers can buy a Province every turn, why bother? But it doesn't seem like it's that often that I go for that sort of gambit and win … or does it? And it's not like I can write this off as a fluke; Gold is in every game …

So I guess what I'm asking is, what does this tell me about my play style? Anything? Something I do well? Something I do wrong? (I'm at level 22, so I'm not doing /everything/ wrong, but I ain't no Theory either :-) ) More generally, what can one glean from one's Popular Buys page? There's so much data there, gathered from every game you play; it seems like there must be some good way to leverage it. But it also seems remarkably easy just to get confused by it …

25
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Beginner Game Flow + Strategy
« on: June 16, 2011, 05:22:46 am »
As far as general flow of the game, the best advice I can give you is to head over to dominion.isotropic.org and log 15-20 games to get a feel for how different boards will play out. You can use the options at the bottom of the page to limit the cards to just basic dominion at first. However, I really enjoy the expansions, so don't wait too long to try them out.

I think playing on Isotropic may not help that much if you're that new. For instance, my friends took a bit to catch on to how awesome Chapel is (we actually had arguments over whether Chapel or Cellar is better … yes yes, I know, different situations, but still). But after the first few times someone was ballsy enough to trash their entire hand on turn 3 (which seemed like a crazy gambit at the time), it dawned on me: They get their deck down to, like, five cards, and that's why they get to play three Markets and a Militia every freaking turn. If you're playing in person, and you actually see them draw their whole deck in a turn, the light bulb goes off. But online, it's just not in your face the same way: You have to know to click Info just to see how big their deck is, and it's easy at first to miss the all-important “(Joe the Dominion Player reshuffles.)” and “… drawing no cards” messages.

I've played a few games recently with low-level players who got very confused (and frustrated) at my ability to keep them pinned down. Once, I opened Ambassador/Ambassador and got an early Ghost Ship and Laboratory, and before long I was Ghost Shipping every turn (with only one Ghost Ship). My opponent said something like “How are you doing that every turn?!” In a physical game, he'd have seen how I was drawing every card I had every turn; it would've been much less mysterious.

But anyway. By the sheer number of games you can go through, it's certainly true that you get to see how different cards interact, and how to classify different kingdoms (all terminal actions, or +Buy heavy, etc.). But for the very basic mechanics, I'd say you can't beat face-to-face play.

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