926
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927
Puzzles and Challenges / more puzzles
« on: November 16, 2011, 11:48:50 am »
i've seen a bunch of these, figured i'd give it a go. i'll start with an easy one.
which card is missing?
Watchtower
Island
Tactician
Colony
Hoard
which card is missing?
Watchtower
Island
Tactician
Colony
Hoard
928
Rules Questions / Re: Trashing cards
« on: November 13, 2011, 08:38:12 pm »
here is a quick list of cards that trash. (holy cow, there are more than i would have guessed coming into this...)
apprentice
bishop
chapel
develop
expand
forge
governor
jack of all trades
loan
lookout
masquerade
mine
moneylender
remake
remodel
salvager
spice merchant
steward
trade route
trader
trading post
transmute
upgrade
you can break those down into a few categories too if you are feeling crazy. straight trashing, trashing for money this turn, and trashing to improve that card. a few other cards may incorporate trashing in their play: embargo, farmland, feast, fool's gold, horn of plenty, mint, pirate ship, saboteur, swindler, thief, treasure map, and watchtower.
apprentice
bishop
chapel
develop
expand
forge
governor
jack of all trades
loan
lookout
masquerade
mine
moneylender
remake
remodel
salvager
spice merchant
steward
trade route
trader
trading post
transmute
upgrade
you can break those down into a few categories too if you are feeling crazy. straight trashing, trashing for money this turn, and trashing to improve that card. a few other cards may incorporate trashing in their play: embargo, farmland, feast, fool's gold, horn of plenty, mint, pirate ship, saboteur, swindler, thief, treasure map, and watchtower.
929
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Handicapping
« on: November 10, 2011, 05:30:51 pm »I'd guess how you teach someone comes down to what they know already and how they want to learn. Though I do think the order you put down at the end is wrong - BM+ should come before engine-building.
in terms of learning solid dominion strategy i agree. but i think that simple engine building is more interesting for the novice player and they would be more likely to stay interested. while sound strategy, diving right into BM+ will be quite boring for a new player.
930
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Handicapping
« on: November 10, 2011, 02:49:56 pm »These people we play with a reasonably serious gamers that like to figure things out for themselves a lot. The main problem is experience: they don't know all the cards, or good interactions. We remind them of the power of attack, curse and trashing, but they occasionally ignore the advice out of lack of experience. They will learn over time, without being hand-held.
the trouble is that there are a bunch of different concepts to learn seemingly at once. they can learn a lot from watching an experienced player, but they can also be left just as confused as when they started. you don't want to hold their hands, but somewhere out there is a line between that and not overwhelming them / keeping them interested in the game.
as a sort of tangent, it might be beneficial for the community at large to develop a set of boards that could teach a learning curve to interested noobs. something that focuses more on enjoyment factors than outright strategy. principles of big money and trashing are huge to strategy, but mean a lot less for the enjoyment of new players. i think the card combos and action chains are huge in attracting new players and keeping them interested, and moving away from that too fast might scare people off.
maybe start with a simple village/smith draw engine (does any noob not love these? i still do...) and how to balance villages versus smithies. then maybe throw in a terminal. then shift that to how to balance your money in that deck. then maybe move onto showing how a less complicated single/double smithy and BM could get the job done. and then trashing, attacks, 2 card combos and so on.
931
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Handicapping
« on: November 09, 2011, 06:36:54 pm »I think it's probably better to handicap the more experienced player than give some bonus to the less experienced one. By starting with bonuses, they are learning to play the game with a crutch that might hinder future skill development.
agreed. personally, i think i would recommend just constraining yourself in a manner that might make you better as a player. avoid your favorite/crutch cards. try to build a deck that can react to attacks instead of doing the attacking yourself. go for a secondary strategy in place of the dominant one. things like that.
it is a tricky situation though. you want the game to remain competitive, but you don't just want to give up on them either. if i were the other players in your case, i would rather get a beatdown then win because i had an inherent designed advantage over you.
932
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
« on: November 09, 2011, 10:45:57 am »YW/Tunnel is quite insane. Simulating this beats just about anything (but I noticed a little bug that excess terminal actions are discarded before the tunnel)
what play rules do you recommend for this? single tunnel and single young witch? i've only played one game with the combo (my first game with it, back during the week tunnel came out) but i ended up with a few of each and i think i made a mess of it.
933
Dominion Isotropic / Re: Decline of civility on isotropic?
« on: November 07, 2011, 02:51:24 pm »
a few of my thoughts on the subjects being discussed. as a note, i don't have any background with chess or magic. my competitive background is based largely in baseball, track, and having brothers.
- outside of when real life situations dictated, i don't think i have ever resigned more than 3 or 4 games. i will scrap and fight to the very end. once i am mathematically out of it though i won't drag things out, i will usually just help end the game. playing out games, even a bad loss, doesn't usually bother me. (though to be fair i didn't even know how to resign until i had played a few hundred games) i have found i can learn useful things by changing my strategies when behind and observing what my opponent did.
- that being said, i don't care at all if you resign or whether you acknowledge me at all in doing so. we have all had stinkers of games, and though we play against strangers we do have our pride. i can see the rationale of just wanting to duck out if you are getting stomped or if you are frustrated by some rough luck.
- you built a cool engine and want to see it play out? note the cards of that board and then go play solitaire mode. wanting your opponent to stick around so that you can have a grand climax to certain victory is little more than vanity. you know how it is going to play out; you had some idea of what the result would be when you designed the engine after all.
- i think that if you can win the game on piles you should. if you have a decisive lead, respect your opponent's pride and time and move to end the game quickly. the better players out there should have a good eye for what the score is and how close the game is to ending anyway.
- i feel silly for having to bring this up, but treat others like you want to be treated. you will win more people to your style of respect/disrespect by regularly displaying it in your gameplay than you will by discussing it here. if you want to see change, lead the way every time. when resigning, compliment your opponent on their superior strategy and don't ever use the word luck. thank people for playing when you win. i doubt people started saying "gg" because they read it on a forum. they probably saw a large number of other players use it and determined it was an appropriate and courteous response.
- outside of when real life situations dictated, i don't think i have ever resigned more than 3 or 4 games. i will scrap and fight to the very end. once i am mathematically out of it though i won't drag things out, i will usually just help end the game. playing out games, even a bad loss, doesn't usually bother me. (though to be fair i didn't even know how to resign until i had played a few hundred games) i have found i can learn useful things by changing my strategies when behind and observing what my opponent did.
- that being said, i don't care at all if you resign or whether you acknowledge me at all in doing so. we have all had stinkers of games, and though we play against strangers we do have our pride. i can see the rationale of just wanting to duck out if you are getting stomped or if you are frustrated by some rough luck.
- you built a cool engine and want to see it play out? note the cards of that board and then go play solitaire mode. wanting your opponent to stick around so that you can have a grand climax to certain victory is little more than vanity. you know how it is going to play out; you had some idea of what the result would be when you designed the engine after all.
- i think that if you can win the game on piles you should. if you have a decisive lead, respect your opponent's pride and time and move to end the game quickly. the better players out there should have a good eye for what the score is and how close the game is to ending anyway.
- i feel silly for having to bring this up, but treat others like you want to be treated. you will win more people to your style of respect/disrespect by regularly displaying it in your gameplay than you will by discussing it here. if you want to see change, lead the way every time. when resigning, compliment your opponent on their superior strategy and don't ever use the word luck. thank people for playing when you win. i doubt people started saying "gg" because they read it on a forum. they probably saw a large number of other players use it and determined it was an appropriate and courteous response.
934
Dominion General Discussion / Re: What's your strategy with this set?
« on: November 04, 2011, 01:27:28 am »There's also a Stash/Crossroads strategy which is going for the goal of getting four Stashes and using Crossroads to rapidly cycle through the deck. Which is probably terrible but sounds like fun.
i tried out a few variants of that and didn't seem to have much luck with it. i even tried throwing in an early mint to clean up some copper but i don't think it could keep up with the other ideas.
935
Dominion Articles / Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« on: November 03, 2011, 10:08:40 am »
a friendly reminder to all of the disclaimer theory put on the blog posts that started this discussion:
---
Disclaimer: Dominion does a really great job of balancing its Kingdom cards. Pretty much every card has some situations where it shines, and some situations where it doesn’t. Nevertheless, some cards just end up being flat-out better than others, either because they are more useful more often, or just ridiculously good when they are useful. Don’t expect this list to be very scientific.
---
---
Disclaimer: Dominion does a really great job of balancing its Kingdom cards. Pretty much every card has some situations where it shines, and some situations where it doesn’t. Nevertheless, some cards just end up being flat-out better than others, either because they are more useful more often, or just ridiculously good when they are useful. Don’t expect this list to be very scientific.
---
936
Game Reports / Re: Ambassador gives massive first turn advantage?
« on: November 02, 2011, 01:07:30 pm »
probably a little bit of all of those reasons? a few things stand out.
- he had 4! more cards (3 copper, 1 silver) in his deck than you after just 4 turns and 2 reshuffles. that is huge.
- going first allowed you to send him a card and then get in a reshuffle before he could return one on both turns 4 and 6.
- this all helped you to reshuffle on EVERY turn between 6 and 14. that is nuts.
makes me wonder if ambassador/silver is ever worth the silver. i will have to defer to some of the sim guys on this.
- he had 4! more cards (3 copper, 1 silver) in his deck than you after just 4 turns and 2 reshuffles. that is huge.
- going first allowed you to send him a card and then get in a reshuffle before he could return one on both turns 4 and 6.
- this all helped you to reshuffle on EVERY turn between 6 and 14. that is nuts.
makes me wonder if ambassador/silver is ever worth the silver. i will have to defer to some of the sim guys on this.
937
Dominion Articles / Re: Ranking the opening terminals (for 4/3 splits)
« on: November 01, 2011, 11:33:24 pm »Hmm, this could be an interesting discussion in its own right: under what circumstances is it correct to ignore Sea Hag? Other than Masquerade and Trader, I think I might prefer to open Ambassador/Ambassador when Sea Hag is on the table (at least, if my opponent buys a Sea Hag). And I won a game recently by ignoring Sea Hag and opening Fishing Village / Jack of All Trades.
ambassador was my first thought, but id probably pass on it for young witch most boards as well. if i opened 5/2 id consider upgrade as well.
im not sure if this is optimal or not, but i will usually ignore it and open silver/silver if witch or mountebank are around. i would prefer the early buying power and later usefulness of +2$ or +2 cards even if it means a 6/4 split against me.
938
Dominion Articles / Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« on: November 01, 2011, 11:21:55 pm »Also, how do we feel about Cache as an opening?
well, on the right board you can potentially have a turn 3 province. cache/nothing will get you a slightly better average money value (12/13) than silver/silver (11/12) but it comes at the cost of the slightly larger deck. would work well in a gardens deck, and could be a fantastic buy with trader in hand. i've only seen it on one or two boards though so i can't comment much more.
939
GokoDom / Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« on: October 30, 2011, 01:41:37 pm »
some more results, west conference. Rabid wins over greatexpectations, 4 games to 3. some good close games, thanks Rabid.
game 1 - greatexpectations (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/30/game-20111030-094701-f8b64668.html)
game 2 - Rabid (forgot to grab the log)
game 3 - Rabid (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/30/game-20111030-100006-c8ef4b7a.html)
game 4 - greatexpectations (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/30/game-20111030-101033-bb652a92.html)
game 5 - Rabid (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/30/game-20111030-101417-9b517bcd.html)
game 6 - greatexpectations (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/30/game-20111030-102215-43429c52.html)
game 7 - Rabid (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/30/game-20111030-103456-93b3ddf7.html
game 1 - greatexpectations (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/30/game-20111030-094701-f8b64668.html)
game 2 - Rabid (forgot to grab the log)
game 3 - Rabid (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/30/game-20111030-100006-c8ef4b7a.html)
game 4 - greatexpectations (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/30/game-20111030-101033-bb652a92.html)
game 5 - Rabid (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/30/game-20111030-101417-9b517bcd.html)
game 6 - greatexpectations (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/30/game-20111030-102215-43429c52.html)
game 7 - Rabid (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/30/game-20111030-103456-93b3ddf7.html
940
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Keeping Score
« on: October 28, 2011, 08:41:05 am »
i don't think it is all that hard to keep track of points in 2p. you just have to keep track of what you have and what you have trashed. by then looking at the supply and trash pile you can figure out what your opponent has pretty easily. gardens/fairgrounds/silk road/vineyard is a little trickier, but i still keep track in my head if it seems like it is a close game and it might matter.
alternately, i will sometimes just keep track of point differential. it doesn't matter much if the score is 24-20 or 44-40, it matters that the difference is 4.
i dont care either way on the presence of the point tracker, and just leave that box set as don't care. if others play with it, sure, if not oh well. im not sure what the big deal is myself. as long as it is information that we both have free access to, i don't see how it could affect the game in any negative way.
alternately, i will sometimes just keep track of point differential. it doesn't matter much if the score is 24-20 or 44-40, it matters that the difference is 4.
i dont care either way on the presence of the point tracker, and just leave that box set as don't care. if others play with it, sure, if not oh well. im not sure what the big deal is myself. as long as it is information that we both have free access to, i don't see how it could affect the game in any negative way.
941
Dominion Articles / Re: Crossroads
« on: October 27, 2011, 10:41:17 am »
crossroads goes quite well with wharf, i think. ive seen this combo a few times already, and it makes for some real quick games. it gives you the actions you need to get off a few wharves, and you will usually start with a few green cards in hand to help with your draw. plus, they are easy to pick up with the plus buy from the wharf.
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111017-185421-269ffb3f.html - i went for gardens, figuring i could end on piles without the green slowing me down
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111017-182444-84822225.html - i lost, and his masquerade and baron are the reason why
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111017-144625-6e098f99.html - i think the silver/silver open (instead of 5/2) actually helped me by getting me better buying power early.
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111017-185421-269ffb3f.html - i went for gardens, figuring i could end on piles without the green slowing me down
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111017-182444-84822225.html - i lost, and his masquerade and baron are the reason why
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111017-144625-6e098f99.html - i think the silver/silver open (instead of 5/2) actually helped me by getting me better buying power early.
942
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Dominion Fan Card Contest
« on: October 27, 2011, 10:07:42 am »
i threw my votes for cards that i felt were creative, balanced, and simple. there were a bunch of cards i liked, but it is very difficult to meet those three criteria. my votes went to
1. terra
2. jupiter
3. pluto
terra /archivist - i dont really read the variants threads, so i didnt realize that this idea had been out there for a while. still, i think it was the best card out there and i apparently wasn't the only one.
jupiter / abbey - i liked this one. a slight (though interesting) twist on the classic village format.
pluto / inventor - i admittedly like cards with some player interaction, and i thought this was a new twist. i think it might be a bit overpriced, but i like the idea.
---
i was also a fan of:
demeter / enchanted gardens - probably my 4th place, i love gardens and the idea of gaining points for curses is great. balancing the card is tricky though, as jonts26 pointed out.
hermes / urban planner - i like how the card manipulates the end game condition, but i think it can make for some painful games if someone is getting crushed and then you have to kill piles to make it official.
osiris / lower school courts - making estates more valuable was a neat idea, im just not sure how well this one would work. you would need to have spare actions, spare buys, and a bunch of estates to make it worthwhile. im not sure that would be worth it, but id consider trying it out.
---
i was also the creator for the glycon / closing market card. my idea largely came from fools gold and city, creating a card that seems great but is kind of a trap and that would use the opposite of the city mechanic. i had a really hard time making it balanced, and as many of you have pointed out, it still might not be. but in the same notion, having a deck full of fully powered cities is ridiculously overpowered card. but to get to that state requires having a majority of the cities and help in emptying piles. the other player has a large degree of control over how useful the card is.
personally, i was largely interested in the metagaming that would arise from the card. if you go for too many you end up with a deck of garbage. and if you only have 2-3, it doesn't strike me as a huge advantage in your deck, as you are likely using up important early game buys on the card.
1. terra
2. jupiter
3. pluto
terra /archivist - i dont really read the variants threads, so i didnt realize that this idea had been out there for a while. still, i think it was the best card out there and i apparently wasn't the only one.
jupiter / abbey - i liked this one. a slight (though interesting) twist on the classic village format.
pluto / inventor - i admittedly like cards with some player interaction, and i thought this was a new twist. i think it might be a bit overpriced, but i like the idea.
---
i was also a fan of:
demeter / enchanted gardens - probably my 4th place, i love gardens and the idea of gaining points for curses is great. balancing the card is tricky though, as jonts26 pointed out.
hermes / urban planner - i like how the card manipulates the end game condition, but i think it can make for some painful games if someone is getting crushed and then you have to kill piles to make it official.
osiris / lower school courts - making estates more valuable was a neat idea, im just not sure how well this one would work. you would need to have spare actions, spare buys, and a bunch of estates to make it worthwhile. im not sure that would be worth it, but id consider trying it out.
---
i was also the creator for the glycon / closing market card. my idea largely came from fools gold and city, creating a card that seems great but is kind of a trap and that would use the opposite of the city mechanic. i had a really hard time making it balanced, and as many of you have pointed out, it still might not be. but in the same notion, having a deck full of fully powered cities is ridiculously overpowered card. but to get to that state requires having a majority of the cities and help in emptying piles. the other player has a large degree of control over how useful the card is.
personally, i was largely interested in the metagaming that would arise from the card. if you go for too many you end up with a deck of garbage. and if you only have 2-3, it doesn't strike me as a huge advantage in your deck, as you are likely using up important early game buys on the card.
943
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Salvager CCCS Decision?
« on: October 26, 2011, 01:02:12 pm »
not to entirely hijack the discussion, but this is related to something else i wanted to post about. that being how to play remake/steward and establishing trashing priority. of course it will vary some depending on the 4/5 cards available and overall strategy, but some guidelines might be useful for those who can crunch the numbers and run a sim or two.
im thinking especially of:
steward, 4 copper - gold or trash two copper
remake, 2 copper, 2 estates - you are likely not buying anything this turn, so do you trash two copper and thin the deck so you can cycle the remake a little quicker, or boost your buying power by getting two silver? or one of each?
i guess you can throw upgrade into the discussion as well.
im thinking especially of:
steward, 4 copper - gold or trash two copper
remake, 2 copper, 2 estates - you are likely not buying anything this turn, so do you trash two copper and thin the deck so you can cycle the remake a little quicker, or boost your buying power by getting two silver? or one of each?
i guess you can throw upgrade into the discussion as well.
944
Dominion General Discussion / Re: What's your dominion pet peeve?
« on: October 23, 2011, 12:29:06 pm »that brings me to my pet peeve ... when an opponent decides to buy more provinces/colonies rather than 3-piling for the win.
agreed. if you have a clear lead and the ability to end the game on your turn you should. i totally understand that we sometimes lose track of points, but in most games you have a pretty clear idea of who is ahead.
i played a game with city/goons/trashing game the other day where the player built a nice lead on me and then continued buying cards for his engine even though he could have ended it on piles. i pointed it right away and he replied that he wanted to see how many points he could get, and that he was shooting for 100+. i replied that i didn't think it was very cool to do and he just replied that i could resign if i had a problem. probably the first time i've ever gotten angry playing this game.
945
Dominion General Discussion / Re: How do You Play Golem?
« on: October 23, 2011, 12:15:55 pm »
i dont see a whole lot of appeal in the card myself. i feel like hunting party performs a very similar role and is far easier to purchase and build around.
946
GokoDom / Re: IsoDom 2 Invitational Sign-Up
« on: October 23, 2011, 12:39:22 am »
thanks for setting this up MMM, both last time and this time. you can count me in again.
947
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Dominion Fan Card Contest
« on: October 22, 2011, 02:43:00 am »I just didn't want to draw attention away from the card's actual effects and wanted the voting to focus on that, but you could say that the name is an integral part of the card (and the designer's idea) and I understand if you do. I simply chose this way of doing it.
would you mind sharing the original names of the cards once the votes have been tallied? i understand (and agree with) your policy with regards to the contest, but i am still curious to see what the other names were.
You're killin' me.
agreed. i am a real big fan of one of these cards. and of course i am curious to see what people think of my submission.
948
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Create a card inspired by another game
« on: October 21, 2011, 02:41:22 pm »
go fish - 5$
reveal a card from your hand. if the player to your right has a copy of that card in his/her hand, they pass it to you. if not, +1 card.
reveal a card from your hand. if the player to your right has a copy of that card in his/her hand, they pass it to you. if not, +1 card.
949
Game Reports / Re: Ambassador Hell
« on: October 21, 2011, 02:14:08 pm »
i gave a guy some ambassador hell in a recent game.
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/20/game-20111020-191955-ed364456.html
with a rare unfortunate 5/2 start and a couple poor draws early on, i fell really far behind quite fast. i decided to start running a double tactician, using a kc/kc to send three cards his way every turn and to moneylend some copper for virtual money.
i lost track of points and probably dragged it on a turn or two longer than it should have. it was still an interesting game though, i think. if i would have played it a little different or started my engine a little earlier i might have been able to pull it out. and props to simfarm for not only putting up with it, but for having some good conversation during the game.
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/20/game-20111020-191955-ed364456.html
with a rare unfortunate 5/2 start and a couple poor draws early on, i fell really far behind quite fast. i decided to start running a double tactician, using a kc/kc to send three cards his way every turn and to moneylend some copper for virtual money.
i lost track of points and probably dragged it on a turn or two longer than it should have. it was still an interesting game though, i think. if i would have played it a little different or started my engine a little earlier i might have been able to pull it out. and props to simfarm for not only putting up with it, but for having some good conversation during the game.
950
General Discussion / Re: Game: Dominion sentences
« on: October 19, 2011, 04:06:30 pm »I suppose this depends on whether I'm allowed to use Dickensian opening lines...
i will venture to say that the op won't mind if you expand on this idea.