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Messages - Toskk

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51
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Homage to the Best Card
« on: April 26, 2012, 10:13:16 pm »
Talisman, a card that duplicates cheap cards is in the Dominion set with all of the super expensive cards.

There is a meme there somewhere.
Talisman is not a meme.

Talisman is not a meme is a meme?

One does not simply.. make Dominion memes?


52
Idea for another checkbox in the top-right: Include at least 1 card that provides at least +2 cards.

Oo good idea.. I'll add that option to v1.1.4. :)

53
Goko Dominion Online / Re: Where's the official app?
« on: April 26, 2012, 11:22:58 am »
Do you think it's really that hard to make user AIs possible?  rspeer basically did it in his hobby time in a few days.

If you design the system well, a human player is just some thing that takes a (rendered) game state and makes a decision.  A user AI is a thing that takes an (encoded) game state and makes a decision.

I agree *very* strongly with this.. it's a feature I'd love to see, and it's really not that hard to code.

54
Goko Dominion Online / Re: Where's the official app?
« on: April 25, 2012, 11:15:23 pm »
However, I think a better use of your time would be to actually tell us something - anything - about what we can expect and when.
The people making the online version wish to control that flow of information. Since I am working with them I would like a friendly relationship with them, so I am respecting that!

So, no, not a better use of my time.

Not to be overly antagonistic, but "flow" requires that *some* information is actually moving in a specific direction.. which is by definition not the case here. There has been *no* information from the "people" making the online version. I mean no disrespect to you (as the issue definitely isn't within your control), however the marketing department for the 'official' online version of Dominion is seriously dropping the ball here.. and no, I'm not talking about entitlement, or instant gratification, or complaining. Rather, there's an entire forum of avid online Dominion players here, otherwise known as prime targets for viral marketing and 'hype'. As this thread can attest, video gamers are *very* used to the "another two weeks" phrase. Development taking longer than predicted/expected is the norm.. but *zero* information from the developers of a product isn't.. and I'm really scratching my head as to the why.

Edit: I mean, I'm guessing quite a few folks have gone and spent money on any of the various Dominion (or knock-off) 'apps' available for sale already. That's possibly lost revenue for the 'official' game already.. but if players had a better sense of just what features the official online version might have, it could crowd the third-party apps out even *before* the official version is ready.

55
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Can NV/Bridge lead to a stalemate?
« on: April 23, 2012, 05:09:43 pm »
(also, *never* take the cards on the mat off early.. I've tested it extensively.. it's always bad).

But if you find yourself in the position (from incorrect buy priorities or just bad luck) where most of your NVs are on the NV mat, perhaps it might be a good idea to take the mat into hand and then play all those stored NVs at once to move a bunch of OTHER stuff onto the mat?

With the right buy priorities, this occurrence is really really rare.. you only need 6 Native Villages (and that's if you're going for the full 8-buy mega-turn, so even in those rare cases where you end up placing a lot of NV's on the mat, you should just be able to buy 1-4 extra as needed to compensate. I've found it's usually safe to break the no-more-than-2-Native-Villages-ahead-rule once I've hit 6 Bridges (i.e. I only need 1 more), so you can grab extra NV's then, as well.

Also, extra Native Villages on the mat is usually a pretty nice occurrence.. as it likely means a hand with a few of Bridges with the NV to start the mega-turn, and a lot of chances to grab more. With 6 NVs on the mat, for example, you have 5 chances (once you grab the mat) to draw more Bridges onto the mat, and your odds of doing that are much higher with all of the NVs in your hand already.

56
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Can NV/Bridge lead to a stalemate?
« on: April 23, 2012, 04:07:49 pm »
No matter how many times I try the NV/Bridge strategy, my mat invariably gets filled primarily with NVs, forcing me to empty my mat in order to avoid a choked deck.

It sounds like your buy priorities might not be quite right.. I've stalled out a NV/Bridge deck once or twice, but it should be very rare.

In general, you don't want your number of Bridges and Native Villages to ever get too unequal. To facilitate this, your T3 and T4 buys really need to be 1 Bridge and 1-2 Native Villages. After that, you want to slightly prioritize Bridges over Native Villages (e.g. with two coppers and 1 Bridge in hand, buy 1 Bridge instead of 2 Native Villages), making sure that you don't ever get more than 2 Bridges or Native Villages ahead. At two Bridges ahead, it's usually pretty easy to double-buy Native Villages to catch up (which you want to do asap).. ideally, you need to place *at least* 8 cards on the Native Village mat in order to mega-turn, and accomplishing this quickly is imperative. Too few Native Villages and your mat won't build up quickly enough (also, *never* take the cards on the mat off early.. I've tested it extensively.. it's always bad). Staying two Native Villages ahead for more than a turn or two is also very bad. You become more and more likely to send too much of your economy onto the mat.

Also, you shouldn't need to add any other card to your deck beyond Bridges and Native Villages (assuming no competition, of course) unless your first (or first and second) Bridge gets sent to the Native Village mat.. in which case stopping buying Native Villages and grabbing a Silver or two is necessary.

57
So provided we can get an accurate average for hand size for the deck, calculating the probability of events like Baron and Estate or Copper and Moneylender lining up shouldn't be an issue. :D
I would not expect that using an average handsize in the formula for fixed handsizes to give you anything meaningfull. The formula is highly non-linear, so you can't just use an average in the formula. If you want to calculate the expectation value of a function, you usually can't just evaluate the function at the mean value. Except for linear functions, which you will not have here.

:e What you should do is I think is to calculate the probability that your handsize will be m (because you played m-5 Labs), use the formula to calculate the probability of collisison given you drew m cards, and than sum the weigthed average. Calculating the probability i started above, formula is not complete, but I don't really want to do the formula again.

Well *bleh*.. unfortunately you are quite right. From some quick testing on using averaged hand size vs. probability of 5 and 6 card hands (i.e. a deck of 1 Lab, 1 Baron, 3 Estates, and 7 Copper), the averaging method does not produce results at all similar. :( Ultimately, though.. any method of dealing with calculating the percentage distribution of various hand sizes is also going to need to take into account terminal draws and the possibility of drawing actions dead. :P With that added complexity (especially with +card/+action chains), I don't see any reasonable method of calculating the percentage distribution of hand sizes. :P

58
Well, I had a friend (better at math than I) take a look at the problem (not the reshuffle problem, the original one), and here was his suggestion:

Quote
Your deck consists of d cards, m of type M and d-m of type not-M.  You can easily substitute d for the number of cards remaining in the deck at the turn you start calculating and m for the type of card that you want to draw every turn (remaining in the remaining deck).  IE if you actually want to draw the cards of type n, then just call m = d-n, or if you want to draw not n, then call m = d-(d-n) = n.

So you draw a single card and you want it to be M.  The odds are m/d.  Lets assume you succeed.  The deck is now d-1, and the number of viable cards is now m-1.

Then you want to draw a second card and you also want it M.  The odds are (m-1)/(d-1).  The odds of you succeeded both times is the first times the second.

Repeat k times, and the problem is that k can be a non whole number (but its no greater than m).

So the overall equation is generalized as
(m*(m-1)*(m-2)*...*(m-k)) / (d*(d-1)*...*(d-k))
Note that
j*(j-1)*...*(j-k) = j!/(j-k-1)!
Fortunately, any scientific calculator can do non whole number factorials.  So the overall equation is
((m!)*(d-k-1)!)/((d!)*(m-k-1)!)

So provided we can get an accurate average for hand size for the deck, calculating the probability of events like Baron and Estate or Copper and Moneylender lining up shouldn't be an issue. :D

59
My mind went to Mine and other cards that deal with treasures (Venture, Bank, treasure-based attacks...). But after I look at the list of cards, I don't see many that conflict. One could empty the IGGs then want to buy others; or buy one and only one Contraband before moving on; playing Horn of Plenty last wants variety, even in treasures...
I guess what I'm saying is that I don't see ones that work *well* together, but that isn't what this tool is for. More importantly, I don't see many that conflict with each other.

Hi BaruMonkey,

I'm working on a few of the other little changes to wording and redundancy restrictions now, but thinking more about the 5-cost Treasure restriction, maybe I just wasn't approaching it the right way. It was kind of an attempt to address cards like Stash, Cache, and Contraband. I mean, how often in a game where all three of those appeared would you buy more than one of them? I suppose maybe with Horn of Plenty around too..

Is there perhaps another way to address 'weak' cards like the three above, maybe with their own redundancy restrictions?

60
I think the conceptual question without reshuffle can be read this way: suppose we draw 5 cards from the deck and play the labs. In the end if the moneylender is in hand, what is the chance for a moneylender to pair up with a copper? Note that we escape from the question of reshuffle by just draw from the deck randomly again and again.

So with the starting deck and a lab and a moneylender, the chance is
(chance to start with 5)*(chance to have a moneylender and a copper in 5)/(chance to have a moneylender in 5)+(chance to start with 6)*(chance to have a moneylender and a copper in 6)/(chance to have a moneylender in 6)

So basically the conceptual question of how to calculate the probablilty of collision with some non-integer hand is that you calculate the probability of collision of each hand with integer cards then average over them.

Hi Timchen,

I'd looked into that method before, but unfortunately determining the 'chance to start with x cards in hand' gets absolutely impossible to calculate once you throw in terminal draws, chances of terminal collisions, etc. Really, the best a model can do is determine an average hand size, rather than a breakdown of the percentage chances of any given whole-number hand size. :P There's definitely going to be some error built into it.. but if it's going to attempt to do more than just encompass non-terminal draws, I don't see any feasible way around it. :P

61
Redundancy filter items that I might not want lumped in:

- Only allow Quarry if there is at least one Festival, Market, or an Action card costing 6 or more. (you mentioned this earlier)
- Don't allow more than one cost 3-5 card that provides +2 actions.
- Don't allow more than one cost 5-6 card that provides +2 actions.
- Don't allow both Market and Grand Market.
- Don't allow more than 1 cost 5 Treasure card.

Also, I think that the following...
- Only allow Reaction and Lighthouse cards (other than Watchtower and Fool's Gold) if there is at least one Attack card.
...should add Horse Traders and Trader to its list, as they can also be pretty useful. (I recently learned about the Horse Traders/ Duke combo :) )

Another possible feature, in the realm of "Only allow Attack cards if there is at least one Reaction or lighthouse card.": You could change it to "...at least one *relevant* reaction...", since some defenses are useless against some attacks. For example, Watchtower and Trader are useless against Bureaucrat, Spy, Thief, etc.

Hi BaruMonkey,

Thanks for the feedback! :)

Hmm.. for the Quarry filter, can you think of any other requirements on it that would make that one better? Or would you just want it removed?

I could definitely lump all of the +2 action-affecting redundancy restrictions into their own checkbox (as there are quite a few of them) and place that underneath the 'require a +2 action card' checkbox. How does that sound?

I suppose that with the no-copper requirement on Grand Market, it's a little bit different than a direct upgrade of a Market.. do you find a lot of games with both where you'd really buy both, though?

For the cost-5 Treasure restriction.. are there specific cost-5 treasures that you're thinking of that work well with other cost-5 treasures?

For the 'Only allow reaction and lighthouse cards if..' restriction (along with the redundancy filter), the goal with that was to try to ensure that the full effect of the reaction card is useful. So Trader I'm pretty sure is outside of that restriction (as you can theoretically gain a card yourself and switch it with a Silver), but Horse Traders is included (as the reaction portion requires being attacked). The *relevant* reaction aspect is actually coded, though. :) The program actually divides attacks and reactions up by type (e.g. hand-reducing, curse-giving, deck-affecting, etc.). The redundancy filter will ensure that any available reaction will be 'useful', and the the 'always include a reaction/defense if there is an attack' filter will ensure the types on the two match. :) Does that help? :)

Toskk

62
I would have thought the best way to solve this is via simulation.
Calculation is going to get really complicated.

Simulation is definitely the *easier* and *more accurate* way to solve this.. however it's also very slow, and gets very complicated with developing mid-game buying rules and complete Kingdoms. What I'm looking for is something much quicker, able to guide buying decisions at any point in the development of the deck. I have a preliminary version of such a model already.. it has some glaring bugs, which is why I'm working on a totally different method (discussed in this thread), but if you'd like to see the old model, that thread is here:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=943.0

63
Well, I have something.. I tried a slightly different approach, and just used a deck of Baron + 3 Estates + 7 Coppers, with hand sizes between 2 and 8, and then checked those probabilities against various functions. A perfect match came out at:

x = hand size
y = probability of having zero Estates

y = -0.00138889 x^3  +  0.0375 x^2  +  -0.336111x + 1

So it feels like this really should be possible (providing we can deal with the other issues mentioned in this thread).. although this particular one only deals with a 3:7 ratio..

64
My calculations say that you will shuffle your deck during the 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th hands etc and that 11/28th of hands will be 6-card hands, with the rest being 5-card hands.

Hi Bozzball,

Hmm.. by those values, the average hand size would be roughly 5.3928. I'll see if I can find something that can closely approximate that. :)

65
But as blueblimp pointed out, Lab misses the shuffle MORE often than other cards -- that's why you need to account for it.  It misses more often because it draws cards.  It gets even messier when you stack multiple labs, since chaining them could trigger a reshuffle that causes all of them to miss, if you aren't careful.

Hmm.. do we have any reasonable method for calculating just how much more often the Laboratory is to miss the reshuffle than the average card in the deck (when the 'deck' could be anything)?

66
Ok, v1.1.3 is now available.. I haven't yet been able to add Painted_cow's 'sort by expansion' option, so this is mostly just a small update/fix. Here's what's included:

* Bug fix for the 5/2 vs. 4/3 split strength variation restriction - it wasn't working 100% correctly before.
* The redundancy filter now makes sure Tunnel will be paired with either a hand-reducing attack and/or a card that allows discarding.
* A few more restrictions added to the redundancy filter.


67
Hi Avin,

I'm glad you like the program. :) I actually have a partially-finished v1.1.3 in progress, that already addresses a few of the points you mentioned.

For example, in v1.1.3, with Tunnel I did just that.. the redundancy filter will ensure that Tunnel is paired up with either a hand-reducing attack or there is a card that allows for discarding.

I'll double-check Trader, too, but even in v1.1.2 I'm pretty sure it's technically outside of the 'make this card useful by always being present with an attack' check.

The 'Only allow Reaction and Lighthouse cards..' filter already does that, I just need to fix the wording. :) Same with the 'Don't allow more than 1 Reaction' filter.

Your question about how the program selects cards is one that I've been thinking about for a long time.. yes, right now the program simply throws out completed Kingdom sets that don't match all the criteria selected. It's quick to calculate, and at the bottom of the screen you'll see a little counter that shows how many sets were thrown out before arriving at one that matched. It does, as you mention, reduce the overall frequency of certain cards being present in the set. :P I've looked into methods for pre-selecting 'partial' Kingdoms, however these end up producing an opposite effect.. increases the frequency of multiple cards of a selected-for type appearing in the set. :P I'd definitely be open to considering other methods for selecting cards, if you can think of one that would have less of an effect on card frequency. :)

I'd also in the past thought about selecting for 'positive combos'.. however I ended up not liking the results. The problem there is that sets end up being too obvious. If the program specifically looks to add well-known combos, it ends up probably eliminating a lot of novelty and potentially unique card interactions. So instead I went with a 'does not play well without' approach, looking to boost the effectiveness of specific 'weak' cards by trying to at least pair them up with something.. the goal being to try to ensure that every card in the Kingdom set is worth time considering (i.e. there are no obviously-useless cards in the set). The filters still aren't quite there yet even in 1.1.3, but I'd welcome suggestions on how to better achieve that goal. :)

I'll post v1.1.3 here momentarily, too, along with a list of what's changed/added. :)

68
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Least game-warping expansion
« on: April 19, 2012, 12:29:31 am »
I don't know.. if you really don't like what Cities and Knights did for Settler's of Catan, I'm not sure if moving beyond the base Dominion set is what you're going to want. Settlers of Catan on its own is a pretty simple game, as is the Dominion base set. As many guides on the Dominion base set can attest to, base Dominion has very few unique game 'types'.. with 17/25 cards in the set being terminal actions, a heck of a lot of those games come down to Big Money + X terminal. There are very few engine games, and those are pretty predictable (e.g. Council Room + Village).. and then there is the Gardens strategy.. and heavy trashing strategies with Chapel.. that's about it. All subsequent expansions increased the possibility of complicated engines, unique 2-3 card combos, attack pins, etc.

In my opinion, Cities and Knights was a great improvement to Settlers.. vastly better than Seafarers, which really only served to instantly bottleneck (by splitting the full board up into islands) the game into an unenjoyable (and poorly balanced) slog. Cities and Knights, by comparison, greatly improved the 'deck' of optional cards and added numerous possible avenues for development and progression. The expansions to Dominion have a similar effect (although probably not as pronounced in the majority of games).

69
Just looking a little more at the reshuffle problem.. I'm really feeling like it should be ignored. After all, it would apply to all cards, not just the Laboratory. For example, the Silver could miss the reshuffle too, as could any other card in the deck. So all cards are ultimately going to be subject to missing a reshuffle chance.. I'm not sure if any method of using averages is going to be able to handle that.. *hmm*

Edit: Adding a little more to this.. as the ultimate objective is to be able to directly compare the relative buying power of, for example, adding a Silver to the deck vs. adding a Laboratory to the deck, if we're really going to deal with the reshuffle, we'd need to look at the relative value difference for missing a reshuffle for the Silver vs. the Laboratory, and only apply the difference of the two to the Laboratory's relative value.. i.e. if the Silver is contributing less than the full $2 to the deck treasure value due to missing reshuffles, and the Laboratory is contributing less than 2 cards due to missing reshuffles, the impact of missing a reshuffle on the relative value difference of the two *should* be near-zero.. right? :P

70
For example, with a deck of 13 cards including one Laboratory, you will go through your deck in 2.4 turns, or have an average hand size of 5.4167 cards.

This seems wrong to me. First, if I have a deck of 12 treasures and 1 cantrip, then it takes 12/5 = 2.4 turns to get through my deck. A lab cycles faster than a cantrip, so 2.4 can't be right.

A naïve modification to this would be to have the lab subtract one from your effective terminal count (since it draws 2), so we'd estimate that with a deck of 12 treasures and 1 lab, it'd take (12-1)/5 = 2.2 turns to get through the deck. This is wrong too, though, because a lab is going to miss the reshuffle more often than a typical card: if the lab is in the bottom 6 cards of the deck, it misses the reshuffle, whereas with a normal treasure, it needs to be in the bottom 4 (unless it's in a lab hand).

Hi Blueblimp,

*bleh* yeah you're correct it should be 2.2 turns. As for the missing reshuffle, do we have some method for approximating the frequency of missing a reshuffle (based again on a non-whole-number value for hand size)? If not, I was honestly going to simply ignore that possibility.. definitely not the most accurate, but attempting to evaluate the entire deck as a whole (rather than as a deck, hand, and discard pile, with a discrete number of hands and reshuffling) is going to be subject to some amount of error anyway..

71
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Nonrandom Kingdoms
« on: April 18, 2012, 10:39:47 pm »
Hi Avin,

I've been working on creating a card picker program designed to do just what you're talking about.. create 'interesting' and balanced Kingdom sets, with multiple strategies available. The program includes a wide variety of artificial selection options, including restricting by cost, set, and function. Here's the thread about the program, if you're interested:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=787.0

72
Ok, this question is for anyone better at math than I.. what I'm hoping to find is a formula that can approximate the probability of, for example, Moneylender pairing up with a Copper (but it could be any card that cares about another specific card) when you also have something like a Laboratory in your deck.

Using a whole number value for hand size, calculating the odds of the event above is trivial.. and it's also trivial to calculate your average hand size based on the composition of your entire deck (e.g. including all Laboratories you have).. but does anyone happen to have a good method for approximating both at once?

For example, with a deck of 13 cards including one Laboratory, you will go through your deck in 2.4 turns, or have an average hand size of 5.4167 cards. But with 5.4167 cards in any given hand, how would you go about approximating the odds of having both Moneylender and at least one Copper in said hand? Note: yes, in this particular case, the odds are probably 100% (unless you happen to have a Silver in those 13 cards too, in which case you could have Moneylender + EEES).. I'm wanting a formula that can compute this, rather than the specific answer for this case. ;)

Thanks in advance to anyone who can suggest a reasonable method for averaging this. For reference, I'm working on a Dominion model (not Simulator) (I posted about it a while back) again. ;)

73
Well, there are a few simple answers to that.. and then a lot of situational ones (depending on specific Kingdoms).

For example, from simulation of the Big Money strategy, it is optimal to switch to Provinces once your deck reaches a total treasure value of greater than 18. This rule could also be applied to most non-engine decks, by estimating (or calculating) the (average) purchasing power of the actions in your deck (i.e. treating your actions as treasures of averaged values).

I've also had good luck with simulation and a variety of BM+X decks adding a "Don't buy Provinces before turn 5" rule. Another rule that sometimes seems to produce higher win rates with vs. without is "Don't buy Provinces before buying 1 Gold".

This of course all changes in engine decks, particularly mega-turn ones or decks going for VP-chip or alternate VP strategies. :P

74
Help! / Re: How could I have known to ignore Scrying Pool?
« on: April 18, 2012, 03:02:31 pm »
HP is also a much much better enabler for MB, or any non-drawing strong attack. Get one MB first and then pound the HP's looking to play MB every turn. I think your opponent would have done even better to ignore most other buys until he had 5-6 HPs. Then get a Gold, then a Plat, Then colonies with 11 and more HPs with less than 11.

Solid /agree with everything here. A lot of Hunting Parties + any terminal $2-giving action is a fast engine unto itself, and having that terminal being a strong attack like Mountebank is even better. Plus, Hunting Party will be excellent for mitigating the extra copper in the deck (although you'll still need extra Hunting Parties to deal with the size of the deck).

75
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Opening: Sea Hag / Ghost Ship?
« on: April 17, 2012, 06:43:50 pm »
Honestly, I feel like the 5/2 split was probably more detrimental to your odds of success than the Sea Hag vs. Ghost Ship decision. The Councilroom.com data, for example, currently suggest the following values for the three possible openings:

Sea Hag/Silver: 3.970 ± 0.916
Sea Hag/-: 1.413 ± 1.029
Ghost Ship/-: 1.748 ± 0.903

Those numbers are of course averages, and don't exactly describe any particular Kingdom set (plus they're mostly based on 2-player games).. but I'd be inclined to agree with them and go with Ghost Ship/-. Sea Hag is a brutal attack, but it's soooo terrible for your economy.. opening Sea Hag/- you're essentially 100% guaranteed to stay behind the other players the entire game.. with Ghost Ship/-, you at least stand a chance of jump-starting your economy quicker than your opponents (before the extra curses slow you down too much). I'm not saying it's much of a chance, mind you.. honestly, that's why I built a card picker program able to force a reasonable card cost distribution (e.g. you can force it to always include a cost 2 card option) as well as limit the 5/2 vs. 4/3 split strength variability (there's a thread about it a few pages down). Sorry for the derail.. back on topic.

Treasuries are also in my experience often a trap card.. players buy a few of them, and feel like their deck economy is good enough to skimp on buying Golds.. and then start greening and realize they can't buy anything.

Edit: Also, with four players I would strongly suspect the game to end 3-pile Curses, Treasuries, and Islands (or possibly Duchies). Treasury is pretty much a no-brainer.. you can still build an economy even while getting hit by curses. So getting a good split on those is going to be very important, too.. and I feel like your odds of accomplishing that are higher with Ghost Ship/- than with Sea Hag/-.

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