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51

Dominion General Discussion / Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards

« on: March 05, 2014, 03:18:09 pm »

Very Happy to see the $+ cards ratings starting to be revealed!

Overall I'm fairly comfortable with these initial ratings.  My bottom 3 match exactly, but others switched around a little.  I'm happy to see Cellar move up a little, as I always find it valuable in keeping engines running mid-to-late game after you start greening.  I had Moat rated just slightly higher, and agree that it is often underrated, as it can sometimes have high impact in big attack games.

What I noticed when doing the ratings was that my impressions of the cards were unavoidably influenced by how those cards had performed in the last 3-5 games I had played with them.  I tried my best to think long term, but when a decent card just really fails in several recent situations it is hard to forget that (Poor House has really taken a huge dive in my recent experience, and probably deservedly so).  And just the opposite, a fairly weak card like Beggar just really shined in several of my recent games for both the reaction and the extra buy power late in the game, so I may have spotted it a couple ranks higher than it maybe deserves.  And I rated Herbalist a little higher...that +Buy has just been very useful many times - along with "scheming" of a Gold or early Silver.

Looking forward to seeing the rest!! (and seeing where the first of the Guilds cards ranks)  I'm enjoying reading everyone else's thoughts also.

52

Dominion General Discussion / Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition

« on: March 02, 2014, 02:04:16 am »

If you want to know how Isotropish works, check out this thread http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8900.0 It's a variation of TrueSkill.

Thanks much!  The beginning of that dialog covers the basics of the design overview I was looking for, and I'm happy to leave the details of the number crunching to those who enjoy such things...but glad there are folks who do. ; )

53

Dominion General Discussion / Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition

« on: March 01, 2014, 08:04:09 pm »

I assume he means Isotropish


Thanks!  I'm new to the forum, and I got into online Dominion with Goko, so I never played on Isotropic, and was not even aware that this Isotropish site was being maintained with different statistics.  Takes me back to college stat courses, and I could have a lot of questions about how it is compiled and used for this process, but I would rather just let folks do their work to pull together the new list.  Just interested mostly to know how much all the hours I put into my ranking will be weighted, and can't really determine that from the site since it doesn't tell me how the numbers are being applied to this effort.  If there are any quick answers that would be great...otherwise I'm content to know that some people have put a lot of time into putting the stats together.

54

Dominion General Discussion / Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition

« on: March 01, 2014, 02:14:41 pm »

I use Isotropish ranking to weight the submissions

You mentioned using the "Isotropish" ranking to weight the submissions.  I assume that you will now be using the Goko Pro ratings...is that correct?  Hopefully you have an easy way to somehow extract those Pro ratings for all the people who submitted lists, since the Goko leaderboards don't currently have a search by user name feature.  Do you know when you will be pulling the rankings?

Good luck, and thanks again for doing all this work!

55

Dominion General Discussion / Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition

« on: February 28, 2014, 03:40:16 pm »

Replying to Qvist's last comment.  I can't quite figure out how to make the quote work in my comment...

I can confirm that the problem with the cards reverting to random order exists without deleting a card, so the update may not entirely prevent it occurring again.  I had my lists revert to random order twice, and I never deleted a card - not a single time.  The first time I'm pretty sure it was after I tried to do a duel on a single card from the All Cards list after all my other lists were complete and I was trying to see if the duel could rearrange one card.  Afterwards, all lists from $2-$6 plus potions were out of order.  The second time I was not making any changes at all.  I was merely going into the "Switch Rank Mode" so that I could do a copy/paste of my lists into an Excel spreadsheet to preserve the order of the lists I had completely re-created a 2nd time.  The good news was that I made it through all of the lists but one before it happened, but the bad news was I did have to completely redo the $5 list.  The other lists I had saved the order, so was able to manually restore them within an hour or so.  But to emphasize...this time I was doing NO changes at all...I was just doing copy/paste to preserve the lists.  The one thing I might have done that perhaps I should not have was to do a go-back in the browser rather than saving each list (since I was not making any changes I didn't see why they should need to be saved again).

So I had all lists except the All Cards list complete before the 2/28 deadline, and have not touched any of them since.  Is the deadline being extended again to allow others to complete their lists, or are the lists closed now?

56

Dominion General Discussion / Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition

« on: February 23, 2014, 01:17:57 am »

First of all, I would like to give a big thanks to Qvist for coordinating all of the effort that goes into compiling these lists!!  I am looking forward to seeing the final results.  I am new to this forum, and relatively new to Dominion.  I discovered the physical card game a couple years ago, but only began playing online about a year ago at Goko, and unfortunately never had the experience of playing on Isotropic.  I can tell you that as a new player working my way up through first the Adventures and then Multiplayer to learn all the expansions, the information on the Qvist rankings and all of the great strategy descriptions on the cards were absolutely invaluable to me.  They have made the game much more interesting and fun, and have made me a better player...although I still have a long way to go to match some of the senior level players on this forum!

So I was happy to be able to participate in giving input for this ranking.  I found that the exercise of evaluating the relative worth of the cards really made me think, and more importantly caused me to re-evalutate some of the cards I don't use as often.  Overall it was fun and illuminating!!

A couple questions I have are:

1)  Will the 2014 rankings just be published by card cost, or will there also be a summary ranking of All Cards as there was in the entry list?  I'm not sure how many people actually took the time to rank all the cards independent of cost.  I myself did that, but found it a challenging task which took many hours of consideration and rethinking.  If I could choose how I would like to see the final result, it would be something like a spreadsheet where you could choose to filter and sort the cards ranked by various attributes such as:  Card Cost, All Cards, Expansion Set, etc...and maybe even more discrete attributes like Victory Cards, Attack Cards etc...

2)  Will I be able to access my final lists and print or save them after the compilation is complete?

And finally, here are a few of my random thoughts and observations from the ranking process:

- The duel method didn't work as well as I hoped.  I went through it all, and the next day I looked at it again and realized many of the rankings didn't make sense.  It was not possible to use the duel to get them in the order I felt they belonged, so I went back to manual method, and found that I was waking up with fresh ideas every day that caused me to tweak the order for about 5 days or so.

- Also, during the duels, I found the site was painfully slow (as in minutes) to respond, and I had to reload the page about every 2 or 3 duels.  When I did the manual ranking it was not as much of an issue.

- Overall I found most of my rankings to be similar to what had been done in the past, but I had a lot of fun considering where the Guilds cards belong...  I love the flexibility of spending coin tokens on future turns when needed, and I think that there are a number of Guilds cards which should rank pretty high.  And probably some of the more esoteric Dark Ages cards may move up as well.

But there were a few areas where I probably diverged from the crowd...

- Maybe I'm still too new a player, but overall I have always found the villages to be underrated.  Sure, they are not the top ranked cards, but when I consider how many of my top ranked cards are terminal actions, I realized that I would never be able to play more than one of those in a turn if it was not for villages or variants which supply +2 Actions.  This resulted in me bumping up the most of the Villages a bit...not to the top, but mostly above the middle of the pack.

- Likewise, although I will often buy a curser or witch variant as soon as possible (because they definitely can be powerful), I sometimes think they are just a little overrated.  Too many times I have seen Montebank just become a terminal silver because someone can discard a curse (especially in 3 or 4 person games).  I'm just not a fan of Young Witch much at all since often there is a valuable Bane which protects, and sometimes I won't even buy a single one if there is Remake or another trasher in the mix.  And Sea Hag is never worth more than one for me unless I have a trasher to get rid of it later.  For me, I have found my highest win rates among cursers usually occur with Ill Gotten Gains because of the ability to give out a curse almost every turn as opposed to every deck cycle with a Witch type card.  But then I may still have more to learn ; )

- It was hard to rank gainer type cards like Stonemason which may not do a lot during mid-game except perhaps trashing curses, but allow for a quick way to gain 2 cards costing $4 or $5 early in the game, and are very strong end game for trashing Golds to get 2 Duchies.  Similar thoughts apply to several of the Hinterlands cards with on-gain effects.

- I probably struggled the most with some of the exotic cards from Dark Ages which I have not played as much.  It caused me to go back and rethink whether I should more often be buying cards like Count, Hermit, Procession, Rats etc...

- My personal favorite card?  I thought it would be King's Court or Goons or Grand Market, but as of this moment I'm leaning towards Governor...even if perhaps the others may be ranked higher.  Yes it gives the opponent a benefit, but the versatility and power of the card is pretty awesome...especially if chained together with some buys.


P.S.  In addition to thanking Qvist for his efforts, I would like very much to thank all the good folks on this forum who have contributed to the write-ups and strategy articles for the individual cards.  They have been an amazing help to me!