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26

Rules Questions / Re: Forge: Alchemist + Silver = ?

« on: August 21, 2013, 01:48:04 am »

Something I should add to this discussion is that, IMO, Potion is designed to be frustratingly difficult to get. All of these clauses with coins and only coins make it so that the only way to get a card costing Potion is to play the freakin' mostly-dead Potion for it, and that's the only thing that the Potion treasure is useful for (besides trash fodder).

Fun trivia: ways to get a Potion-costing card without having played a Potion, in order of decreasing likelihood.

1. Clone it with Jester.
2. Trash Squire for Familiar or Scrying Pool.
3. Get it passed to you with Masquerade.
4. Steal Philosopher's Stone with Thief.
5. Gain it by an opponent's Ambassador.

...That's it, I think.

That's true. But it's still difficult - Jester is finicky and requires opponent's deck inspection, and it just goes down from there. It's much easier to get your hands on fake Coin.

27

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Multigame cards

« on: August 21, 2013, 01:38:04 am »

Oh, your deck travels with you... that makes it even weirder.

OK, the issue then is that different cards have different values at different points of the game.  Maybe the spot I start at has great early game cards like Chapel while you have a bunch of good cards to pick up later (expensive strong cards, alt VP).  I set up my deck quickly while you fumble as best you can.  And then I play Royal Ball.  Now it's mid-game and you find yourself at a board with only early game cards and your deck has nothing great in it.  But my deck is primed and ready to pick up all these great expensive components and then plow through VP.

I suppose the question is, what is your goal?  Are you trying to make an actual tournament where skill matters, or just do something fun and interesting by way of chaos?  There is nothing wrong with the latter, if that's what you're going for.

I think if you were wanting something fun by chaos, this is absolutely perfect.

I hope you aren't being sarcastic, because I think so, too. Of course, the chaos expands exponentially with the number of games you have running simultaneously - I would imagine that just two games would actually be reasonable here. And certain cards, such as Egress and Foreign Currency, are less chaotic than others, such as Globalize and Royal Ball.

And something else to think about - since all games have the same Multigame cards, many of these cards can be used to counter themselves. Thus, when you play Royal Ball (using the choose variant that doesn't trash itself), I see you another one (or two), pushing you back to where you were or to some other game with bad cards. I realize that some cards have different levels of effectiveness in different places (most notably Globalize, since we don't have Attacks everywhere) and would probably need adjustment or replacement to be good self-counters. A few more card ideas:

---
Shipping Agents - Cost $4 - Action / Multigame
Text: Move a card costing up to $5 from any game's Supply to any other game's Supply.
---
Comment: Makes a card available so it can be bought later. Of course, if you don't have enough money for it, it becomes available for others to buy. This can also be used to pull things like Curses from other games so that your cursing attacks last longer.

--- (Alternate version that's even more powerful and works on non-Attack interactions as well as gainers)
Globalize - Cost $7 - Action / Multigame
Text: You may choose an Action card from your hand. Play it as if the entire tournament was one large game, with all players in the cycling order participating, the turn order synonymous with the cycling order, and all Supplies as one large Supply.
---
Comment: This allows Globalize to work on all Action cards, including non-Attack interactions and gainers. Of course, this is probably far too powerful and lets me get out of making cards that work.

---
False Detour - Cost $4 - Action / Multigame
Text: +1 Card, +1 Action | While this is in play, the cycling order is reversed, and the player to your left is now the player to your right and vice-versa.
---
Comment: Combo this with other multigame cards that use the cycling order, and you can effectively reverse them (e.g. reverse a Royal Ball). This also works well with cards that depend on turn order, such as Masquerade and Possession.

28

Rules Questions / Re: Forge: Alchemist + Silver = ?

« on: August 21, 2013, 01:09:18 am »

Something I should add to this discussion is that, IMO, Potion is designed to be frustratingly difficult to get. All of these clauses with coins and only coins make it so that the only way to get a card costing Potion is to play the freakin' mostly-dead Potion for it, and that's the only thing that the Potion treasure is useful for (besides trash fodder).

29

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas

« on: August 21, 2013, 12:58:00 am »

Dead End Street
Action $2

+1 Action
Discard your hand.

This one's great. If you want to make this somewhat work, maybe force other players to reveal their hands and discard them if they have a card that you name.

30

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Multigame cards

« on: August 20, 2013, 11:31:38 pm »

Thanks for your feedback, eHalcyon. I do want to see how I could make this work - if it doesn't, I'm OK with that.

I do think that the VP thing would run into a problem very quickly - I was trying to think of a way where multiple strategies with different VP yields could have the same amount of success among differently set-up games. Obviously, as you've outlined, VP/turn is not it. That was the thing I was having the most trouble in determining, and I'll need to come up with something better. Some ideas are at the bottom of the post.

Yes, you can switch between games, but only when your game ends or you play a Multigame card that allows you to do so. And the seats that are set out are fixed - there can only be up to 6 players in a game simply because there are only 6 seats set out per game (or even less, if that's what you choose). If there are no more seats available at a particular game, no one else can move to it.

The other thing is that since greening (especially with engines) is a very deliberate action that you expect to paralyze your deck, when the game nears the end, players will make the conscious decision to either quit the game (and green) or continue at a different game (and keep building up their deck for the next game). Not to mention that when you do move between games, you get to keep all of your cards, so your concern about the KC-Bridge combo and Royal Ball isn't as much of an issue because you can just play it on the new board.

The Multigame cards are designed to further mesh all of these games into a single game - each game can give negatives to other games and take positives from them. For instance, your concern about a Militia attacking you out of the blue - it actually wouldn't be as out of the blue, because you're aware of what other cards are at other boards, so you can prepare for the rare Militia once that board gets to $6. And maybe that game that got stuck with Sea Hags could make the Governor game pay by Globalizing them. I see what you're saying with Global Ambassador / Rats - I could probably nerf it by saying that a copy of that card also has to exist in the destination Supply (which, when combined with the normal Ambassador, could still allow for the introduction of new cards if you can Egress over there and put the new cards in).

Yes, it is quite chaotic and not much like the tournament you might expect, but it could still be fun.

---

As far as I can tell, your concern about this rests largely on the VP/turn mechanic. I see that there are other problems, but how would your feelings change if I changed the endgame move / win mechanic to any of these:
- The player with the most VP among everyone wins the game. (This is probably even worse, though I can also see that more problems arose from the "/turn" than the differential VP itself)
- When players stop playing a game, they count up their VP, and the player with the most VP among them is one of the tournament winners (there is one per game on the board). Players who choose to continue at a different game aren't counted in this.
- Similar to above, but the player who wins the game goes on to the next round - a new set of games with new cards. This continues until 4 or fewer players remain, at which point they play a single game to determine the tourney winner.

And what of these changes (not necessarily together):
- Royal Ball gives all players the choice to move into an opponent's seat. Each player is forced to move if the player behind them is forced to move, or you are behind them and want to move. And it doesn't trash itself. (I would want to make this work with Escape Ship somehow - I'd probably have to abstract both privileges away to some "priority" counter, and give you an extra priority point while you're playing the card)
- Global Ambassador can only return cards to a Supply if a copy of that card is already there (already mentioned in this post).
- Every tournament always uses at least one Multigame card, perhaps two. (I already knew that should happen)
- One of your starting Coppers is a Foreign Currency.

31

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas

« on: August 20, 2013, 09:23:21 pm »

Ghost Minion $5 Action-Attack

+1 Buy
Choose one: +2 Cards, or top deck your hand, +$4 and each other player todecks their hand and draws 4 Cards

I guess that really, only the person who uses the Ghost Minion is affected by him - no one else has to believe in ghosts if they don't want to, because it just take their cards, teases them, and gives them their cards back.

32

Variants and Fan Cards / Multigame cards

« on: August 20, 2013, 09:19:18 pm »

At my internship, the coworkers I played Dominion with always played three separate 3-4 player games, created from all of the expansions. As I played, I couldn't help but wonder if there was a good way to link all of these games together in a sort of interactive tournament. After some research and thought, here is my solution:

Overview

Play a tournament of multiple, simultaneous "games". Each game must start at the same time, and the winner of the tournament is the player who gained the most VP per turn. Tournament players can interact with one another by playing "Multigame" cards, which are available in every individual game.

Cycling Order

When playing such a tournament, you must define a "cycling order", or a circular loop that passes through all available seats in all games. Each seat in your tournament has a "next seat", and this chain of "next seats" should lead you all the way through all the seats in the tournament and back to your starting point (i.e. no branches, closed loops, or unreachable seats).
- In this post, "next seat" refers to the next seat in the cycling order, whether or not it is occupied.
- "Next player" refers to the next player you encounter as you move from your seat through the cycling order.
- "Previous seat" and "previous player" move in the opposite direction in the cycling order, but are otherwise the same.
For example, the most straightforward cycling order for multiple games at a banquet table is clockwise around the banquet table. But you can have fun with this - perhaps go counterclockwise, or zigzag in a weird way, anything that your players can remember. This is especially important if you choose to use the tournament rules in a single game.
On a related note, all games should have the maximum number of seats available that you wish to support in each game, even if the seats aren't filled up at the start of the tournament.

Game ending and victory

Throughout the game, all players keep exact track of the number of turns they took (most likely through a piece of paper with tally marks).

When a game ends (Provinces out, Colonies out, three-pile), all players in that game may either choose to stop playing or attempt to continue in a different game.
- When you stop playing, you vacate your seat and sit off to the side until all tournament games end. You keep your deck and VP chips.
- If you want to keep playing, you may select any empty seat in the cycling order, at which point you will enter the game there in your appropriate spot in their turn order. If no such seat is available, you must stop playing.
- When you choose to keep playing, any effects that trigger "at the end of the game" do not trigger - any Islanded cards stay Islanded, any Native Village cards stay on your Native Village mat, etc.
When all players have vacated their seats, the cycling order is modified to skip those seats. That game still exists for tournament reasons, but the seats cannot be visited.

When all players have chosen to stop playing, all players count their Victory points and divide them by the number of turns they have played. Whoever has the highest point/turn ratio wins the tournament!

(OFF NOTE: This is the part I'm still trying to work out. This solution allows for faster Province strategies to remain valid even in the face of slower Colony games happening elsewhere, or for even faster Gardens rushes to beat standard Province games happening elsewhere. I still have to find out, though, if VP/turn ratios tend to be the same with different strategies given equally skilled players).

Multigame Cards

The real heart of these tournament rules is the new set of cards - Multigame cards. While most of the cards only interact with your immediate game, these cards can interact with the rest of the tournament, affecting other players or moving between games and the like.
- All games in a Tournament must have the same Multigame cards in their Kingdoms - non-Multigame cards can (and should) differ, but Multigame cards cannot. For instance, if one game has the Foreign Currency card (listed below), the rest must too.
- When you play a Multigame card that affects other players (such as a Multigame Attack), you must announce that you are doing so to the entire tournament, and all players must comply at once.
  - Note that this will even affect other players taking their turns *while* they are taking their turns. In this case, all other players must wait until these players finish resolving any Action card they were playing at the moment the announcement *began*, then all players run the appropriate effect. (Of course, that means that if this was during a TR/KC/Pr run, we could be waiting a long time). If they play a Multigame card that affects other players while resolving this card, they will also wait, then that card's effect will resolve after the first card's.
- Some Multigame cards allow players to move around in the cycling order. When you do, keep these rules in mind:
  - All cards remain in the same state they were in when you move - in deck, in discard, in hand, in play, set aside.
  - Turn orders are modified appropriately when a player changes seats.
  - A game with only one player at it is solitaire Dominion until someone else shows up. A game with no players is dormant, but can still be moved to and played.
- Still other cards allow you to interact with other Supplies. Each Supply is independent, and you can only interact with other Supplies if a Multigame card allows or directs you to do so.
  - If you play Ambassador (or a similar card) that tells you to return a card to the Supply and that Supply pile does not exist at your game, generate a new one at your game. This pile does not count towards the endgame condition if emptied, but does count as being part of the Supply.
  - If you play Madman or Spoils (or similar cards) that return themselves to special piles and those piles do not exist at your game, generate new ones.
  - Similar rules apply to interacting with other Trashes.

Several Multigame Cards
Here are a few of the available Multigame cards:
---
Globalize - Cost $6 - Action / Multigame
Text: You may play an Attack card from your hand. Play it as if the entire tournament was one large game, with all players in the cycling order affected by the Attack.
---
Comment: This allows you to play any Attack card against all other players in the tournament. For instance, if you Globalize a Militia, everyone else who's taking a turn resolves their current Action, then discards down to 3 cards in hand. All players may still reveal Reaction cards in response to these Attacks.

---
Egress - Cost $5 - Action / Multigame
Text: At the end of your turn, move to any empty seat in the cycling order.
---
Comment: A very useful card in both single- and multi-game tournaments, simply because you can change the turn order and get access to other Supplies. This also allows you to escape effects from the players on your right and left (Masquerade or Possession, anyone?).

--
Change of Hands - Cost $4 - Action / Multigame
Text: +2 Cards. Each player in all games passes a card to the next player in the cycling order all at once. You may then trash a card from your hand.
---
Comment: A Globalized Masquerade (Masquerade is not an Attack and thus needs its own card). In addition, if your cycling order isn't synonymous with your turn order, this can be different from Masquerade.

---
Global Ambassador - Cost $4 - Action / Multigame
Text: Reveal a card from your hand. Return up to 3 copies of it to any Supply in any game. Then each other player in that game gains a copy of it.
---
Comment: Don't like putting cards in your Supply? Put them elsewhere!

---
Royal Ball - Cost $6 - Action / Multigame
Text: Trash this. All players move to the next seat in the cycling order all at once. If multiple players are in the middle of their turns in the new game, each player finishes their turn simultaneously, then the next player is decided by consensus in that game.
---
Comment: Can easily shake up the entire game - probably would beat Possession as the most hated card in Dominion. Note also that since everyone has to move and you move during your turn, it is entirely possible that multiple players who are in the middle of their turns are stuck together - hence the explanatory text. This will not, however, interrupt an Attack or other Action that depends on the old game.

---
Foreign Currency - Cost $4 - Treasure / Multigame
Text: (1 Coin) While this is in play, all cards in other games' Supply piles are available for you to buy or gain.
---
Comment: The simplest possible Multigame card - access other games' Supply piles. This not only allows you to buy cards that are only found in other piles (think Black Market's diversity, but slightly nerfed), but also allows you to buy cards from games that have already ended or aren't close to ending. For instance, if you don't want to buy the penultimate Province, use this card to reach over and buy Provinces from other games!

---
Escape Ship - Cost $5 - Action / Duration / Multigame
Text: When continuing in a tournament after an individual game ends, players with more Escape Ships in play get first choice for choosing a seat over players with fewer. After choosing a new seat in such a situation, trash all Escape Ships you have in play.
---
Comment: Essentially, players with more Escape Ships get to choose where to go before players with fewer do. Escape Ships stay in play when you change seats for any other reason - they are only trashed when you are escaping a finished game. You may also choose to stop playing even if you have Escape Ships in play - they only help you continue a game. If two players have the same number of Escape Ships, the first player to pick the seat gets it.

--- (Alternate to the above)
Escape Ship - Cost $5 - Action / Duration / Multigame
Text: When choosing a new seat to move to in a tournament, you may choose to move to a seat occupied by a player with fewer Escape Ships in play. That player must vacate their seat and move to a different seat, or stop playing if no seat is available.
---
Comment: This version of Escape Ship also applies to moving for other reasons, such as with Egress. This makes the card much more versatile and a little less confusing in wording, but I realize that it is also somewhat political (choose the seat of someone you don't like).

33

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: How feasible is a WildCard / Joker?

« on: August 20, 2013, 07:38:02 pm »

Here's how you could word a Joker:
---
Joker - Cost $5 - Reaction:
Anytime you can see this during your Action phase, you may reveal this. If you do, choose a card from the Supply costing less than this. This is that card until the Action you are currently playing resolves.
---

Or, as a more restrictive alternative:
---
Joker - Cost $5 - Reaction
When you play an Action card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, choose a card from the Supply costing less than this. This is that card until the Action card resolves.
---

As far as I understand, the original problem would be having a card that could serve as any card in your hand, but does nothing when played. For instance, you want to play Treasure Map and need a card to connect it to (and trash). This fixes the problem of it being both Action and Treasure and all those other types, since it is simply taking on the guise of whatever card you want it to be, whenever you want it to be that thing (during your Action phase, of course). It fixes the problem of changing at any time (such as at the end of the game).

The first variation allows the card to take on any form any time during your Action phase - for instance, while you're doing a conditional draw. If you get Rabbled, for example, you can say your Joker is a Curse so that you can topdeck it. If you play Scout, you can draw it and declare it an Estate so that you can put it in your hand - or as another Scout so that you can topdeck it.

The second variation only allows the card to take on any form for the duration of another Action card - for instance, with Treasure Map, you can reveal your Joker and say that it's another Treasure Map, and it will take on that form until Treasure Map finishes resolving (during which time you can trash it). Or, if you play Menagerie, you can name all the Jokers as cards you don't have in your hand and thus activate the thing.

And note that both versions of the card allow you to *play* Joker if you play it as a result of Throne Room, King's Court, Procession, Golem, or similar, because playing another Action card is part of these cards resolving. For instance, you can play Throne Room, reveal Joker, call it another Throne Room, and play it as Throne Room.

And one more thing - since Joker takes on its new identity until its host Action card finishes resolving, if it is trashed, it retains its identity even while sitting in the trash (which Band of Misfits can't do). This can create some interesting combos, though probably the most relevant ones come from TR/KC chains and Dark Ages cards that care about the trash and retrieve from it - you host the Joker under the first KC as a trash target of your choosing, then during the use of KC, trash the Joker, reap the benefit, and then get it back.

34

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas

« on: August 20, 2013, 07:08:10 pm »

There's also only one of them, inserted randomly into one of the Kingdom Card piles at the beginning of the game. And when you play it, you return it to your hand.

In a similar vein to that idea (of having only one of that card, shuffled randomly):
Anonymous Benefactor - Cost $3 - Victory
Discard any number of cards. +$5, +1 Buy per card discarded.
During your Clean-up phase, shuffle this into a Supply pile chosen by the player to your left.
----
Setup: Shuffle this card into the Estate Supply pile.

Or an even better one (I wonder if this one is actually even broken):
Allegiance Loss - Cost $4 - Action / Attack
Each other player reveals his hand. If the Allegiance card is revealed, shuffle it into a Supply pile that you choose.

Allegiance - Cost $0 - Victory
50 VP
When you trash this, shuffle it into a Supply pile that you choose.

In games using this, there are 10 Allegiance Loss cards (their own Supply pile), as well as an Allegiance card that is shuffled into the Estates.

35

Introductions / Re: Hi, I'm Compynerd255!

« on: August 20, 2013, 06:47:37 pm »

Welcome!  Have you checked out the Forum Games?

No I haven't - I just did. It sounds quite fun, but I have yet to determine if I have time to dabble in that stuff.

Something I forgot to mention is that, in a few months, I'll be leaving on a two year mission for my church and will thus be dead to the Internet.

36

Dominion Articles / Re: Combo: Fool's Gold / Storeroom

« on: August 20, 2013, 06:26:11 pm »

It's a very nice combo but alone it's not quite enough for Fools Gold to dominate: you still need 3 FGs in hand after the "cellar" discard of Storeroom to buy a Province.

Actually, the idea is that you use the Cellar discard to get multiple Fools Golds into your hand, then use the Secret Chamber discard to discard everything that isn't Fools Gold, actual Gold, or Silver. It's still pretty weak, because if you only have two Fools Golds, you need three other cards, which requires a handsize increaser. But if you also have a Silver, you only need one other card, which still fits within your five card hand.

It's not weak.  Play Storeroom, have 2 FG in hand afterwards.  You only need a Silver or Gold to buy Province.  Other ways to buy province without Storeroom include 2xFG/Gold.  You opened Storeroom/FG.  In theory, both you and your opponent will get 3 FG each on turns 3/4.  This leads to either a 5/5 or 6/4 split depending on whether player 1 draw Storeroom on Turn 5.

That's true, I didn't think of that: you would only not have a Silver or Gold in hand with your two FG if you didn't play your cards right (tee hee). You wouldn't need a handsize increase at all - if you have a good buying strategy, like the one you stated, you should be able to get those essential pieces most turns.

37

Dominion Articles / Re: Combo: Fool's Gold / Storeroom

« on: August 20, 2013, 04:27:04 pm »

It's a very nice combo but alone it's not quite enough for Fools Gold to dominate: you still need 3 FGs in hand after the "cellar" discard of Storeroom to buy a Province.

Actually, the idea is that you use the Cellar discard to get multiple Fools Golds into your hand, then use the Secret Chamber discard to discard everything that isn't Fools Gold, actual Gold, or Silver. It's still pretty weak, because if you only have two Fools Golds, you need three other cards, which requires a handsize increaser. But if you also have a Silver, you only need one other card, which still fits within your five card hand.

38

Introductions / Hi, I'm Compynerd255!

« on: August 20, 2013, 04:19:07 pm »

Hi, I'm Compynerd255! I'm a college student and a programmer by trade, posting my work on my website, http://www.betafreak.com.

I discovered Dominion while doing an internship at Microsoft last summer - there were about a dozen people at my building who played it. Let's just say that I was hooked from the start. I don't actually own any boxed sets of Dominion, but I like playing computer implementations, such as online and an offline WPF version. I love all of Dominion, looking at cards and how they interact, thinking about cool strategies and ideas, inventing new cards, etc.