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Messages - JOG

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26
Game Reports / Re: aaaaaaaaaagggg
« on: March 07, 2014, 04:55:19 pm »
Idea would be to play remodel or sage, remodel on turn 3 or 4.  Remodel estate into wm, and buy a silver.  Maybe buy a silver on turn 4.
You still have sage to draw silver for witch.  Minstrel could discard silver, and then sage could draw minstrel instead of silver but it's unlikely.

27
Game Reports / Re: aaaaaaaaaagggg
« on: March 07, 2014, 04:33:09 pm »
I'd maybe try the sage remodel open here.  The idea would be sage increases remodel estate to wm turns, and then wm increases witch plays.  You're probably going to get the witch a turn or two (maybe more) slower. But, after you remodel an estate or 2 into wm the deck's going to cycle very fast, so witch gets played more often.  Splitting the curses 5/5 with this opening would be reasonable, I think.  Then your deck's going to have more wm's, no estates, but less treasure.  I'd prefer this deck to alternative. 

28
GokoDom / Re: GokoDom III: Round 2 Results ONLY
« on: February 25, 2014, 05:58:11 pm »
jog defeats jsh357

29
GokoDom / Re: GokoDom III: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« on: February 25, 2014, 05:56:48 pm »
I just finished watching stream of my match with jsh357.  It's great to see match from other player's perspective.  Thanks a lot for doing this.

game 1
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140225/log.505c6645a2e6c78ad2ed5ad3.1393359527135.txt
apothecary, scrying pool, storeroom, wishing well, familiar, scavenger, tournament, witch, goons

We both open potion/storeroom, and go for familiars.  He picks up a scavenger early, which I think is quite good here.  Allows topdecking of familiars and later goons.  I'm happy with splitting curses 5-5.  Looking back at it, I think potion/wishing well  open is probably best, then hopefully pick up scavenger early.  After cursing, he goes for draw with apothecary, I go with scrying pool. I did overlook apothecary/wishing well combo, but think scrying pool is still stronger because you can get so many cantrips(peddlers/tournaments).

game 2
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140225/log.505c6645a2e6c78ad2ed5ad3.1393361002277.txt
candlestick maker, apothecary, storeroom, woodcutter, advisor, armory, bridge, ironmonger, quarry, market

We both open potion/storeroom again, and then build apothecary engines.  I pick up an armory, which I think was probably a mistake because there are enough other ways to gain engine pieces(storeroom/bridge).  He focuses more on ironmongers for +actions mostly (some draw/some money).  I focus more on advisors to draw my deck.  On turn 13, I build a 9 point lead, and have a buy left over. 2 piles are out, and only 4 advisors left.  I think about buying nothing, but pick up an advisor because I didn't think his deck had enough draw to get province, duchy, estate and 3 advisors.  Also, 3 buys would be possible for me the next turn, but 4 would be unlikely.  In the stream, it showed he did misplay storeroom, causing unwanted  shuffle because of goko's interface.  If that didn't happen it could have gone either way.

game 3
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140225/log.505c6645a2e6c78ad2ed5ad3.1393362138586.txt
chapel, develop, scheme, shanty town, storeroom, swindler, fortress, contraband, pillage, hunting grounds

The game I'm most proud of.  I ignore swindler and open chapel/silver.  Able to trash down and build deck that draws itself every turn.  Play fortress/hunting grounds, play more villages, develop a fortress into pillage/scheme, play pillage, draw spoils, buy province, then topdeck fortress/hunting grounds.

30
Help! / Re: A Rude Opponent Claims I Made A Mistake
« on: February 24, 2014, 08:14:17 pm »
He just did the same thing to me after we finished this game:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140224/log.50a44d70e4b09c3f1c235128.1393287283780.txt
Claimed his bad shuffles caused the loss and that bishop is better opener than trader here. 
Played him quite a few times.  In over half of his losses, but none of his wins, he's said it was luck.

31
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Procession logs
« on: February 11, 2014, 03:25:04 pm »
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130923/log.50a44d70e4b09c3f1c235128.1379956948997.txt
procession with wishing well, wharf and grand market

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131129/log.50a44d70e4b09c3f1c235128.1385764025684.txt
procession with fortress and baker
Stef  beat me in this one because he is so good at finding 3 pile wins, but still shows how good procession fortress is.  Made some mistakes: I should have watched piles more closely, and shouldn't have been processing processions.

32
Help! / Re: What happened here?
« on: February 04, 2014, 11:20:48 am »
If going for SR, I would try to run squires as 3rd pile (squires, SR, and estates).  Tried it against the bots a few times and got 3 piles (54 points if you get a duchy too) in around 18 turns.  Not sure how that compares to other 2 options though.

33

The argument was that scout is playable more often than some other cards.  It's understood that it adds little to decks. Should it be bought more often than transmute, harvest or coppersmith?  I think so.


You'll find that pretty much every high level player will disagree with this statement. Well, maybe not about transmute, but the others for sure. WanderingWinder gave a good quick explanation on why this is true in his post. But to discuss the points you made, basically most uses you give scout could be fulfilled by ANY action that gives +1 action. And the fact is, the other cards will do additional beneficial things. So for scout to be useful in any of those situations it has to be literally the only card with +action. And if thats the case, there is most likely a better strategy using big money. As for scout/great hall/crossroads/etc, this is one of those things that seems like it should be good at first, but experience shows that it really just doesnt.

As for coppersmith and mandarin, well theres a lot of cards which are less often useful. Manadrin is an all around pretty average card. Maybe you should try buying it more? Coppersmith is bought less often, but can be quite strong when it is. And I guess harvest is sort of boring mechanically. It's not the weakest card, but I can see an argument for cutting it based on the blandness.

I assume you know that you are probably talking about the JOG that is the current #2 on the Goko leaderboard....

But on the other hand.... Scout more playable than Coppersmith??? Not in my book! I also go out of my way to use Harvest. But I lose a lot when I do, so, there's that....

Just trying to clarify my position one more time here. 

The times when coppersmith is the correct buy strengthen deck much, much more on average than the times
when it is correct to buy scout.  My argument is that it is correct to buy scout more often than coppersmith. Simplest situation: engine deck with no other options (useful cards out, concerned about 3 pile, or not enough money left over), and silver might slow you down.  Do you buy scout or nothing?  I said probably scout.  Best argument I read against this was buying nothing is probably best.  I could be wrong, but I still don't see it.  If you draw a green card it's a delayed cantrip and about even.  In the end game, it's probably better than a cantrip a lot of the time.  There's also deck order changing which could help your current turn, and possible interactions with other cards.
So, there aren't all that many times where you don't want anything that costs 4 or less. Yeah, it has to be better than silver, but it also has to be better than all the other cheap cards, too. So you are building an engine, so much that you don't want silver, but there aren't any other engine components you want that cost less than $5? I mean, said engines are fairly likely to not be good. But also, why don't you want silver? Because it doesn't draw anything. Scout needs to be at least draw-neutral to not similarly be a clog, which means that in this super-engine-y deck, you have >25% victory cards? Really? This just, like, never happens. And if you're worried about a 3 pile ending (and if there are a couple of other empty piles of cheap cards leading to the reason you don't have anything else to buy, you probably should be), you really ought to be better positioning yourself for said ending, which scout certainly doesn't accomplish. Seriously, if you're so tied up, nothing is definitely better than scout - you just aren't going to have that many victory cards to draw. There are some 'interactions with other cards', but the problem is that these other cards are most often competing, and the interaction is really marginal to try to jump through so many hoops for.

Coppersmith definitely has a lot more situations where it is useful: Basically any engine where you aren't trashing copper, have a spare action, and usually you want +buy. So... tactician-based engines, wharf-based, council room, margrave, apothecary, as well as [any village]+[any smithy variant]+[any card that gives +buy]. Well, okay, it isn't as good as that sounds, because there is usually something better to do - but there's a reasonable amount of the time where it produces money better than any card this side of bank, and that is something - and there isn't ALWAYS something better to do.

Very good arguments here.  Now think correct scout buys are even more rare than I thought.  Would have given this up sooner, but other arguments focused on strength of correct buys, instead of number.

34

The argument was that scout is playable more often than some other cards.  It's understood that it adds little to decks. Should it be bought more often than transmute, harvest or coppersmith?  I think so.


You'll find that pretty much every high level player will disagree with this statement. Well, maybe not about transmute, but the others for sure. WanderingWinder gave a good quick explanation on why this is true in his post. But to discuss the points you made, basically most uses you give scout could be fulfilled by ANY action that gives +1 action. And the fact is, the other cards will do additional beneficial things. So for scout to be useful in any of those situations it has to be literally the only card with +action. And if thats the case, there is most likely a better strategy using big money. As for scout/great hall/crossroads/etc, this is one of those things that seems like it should be good at first, but experience shows that it really just doesnt.

As for coppersmith and mandarin, well theres a lot of cards which are less often useful. Manadrin is an all around pretty average card. Maybe you should try buying it more? Coppersmith is bought less often, but can be quite strong when it is. And I guess harvest is sort of boring mechanically. It's not the weakest card, but I can see an argument for cutting it based on the blandness.

I assume you know that you are probably talking about the JOG that is the current #2 on the Goko leaderboard....

But on the other hand.... Scout more playable than Coppersmith??? Not in my book! I also go out of my way to use Harvest. But I lose a lot when I do, so, there's that....

Just trying to clarify my position one more time here. 

The times when coppersmith is the correct buy strengthen deck much, much more on average than the times
when it is correct to buy scout.  My argument is that it is correct to buy scout more often than coppersmith. Simplest situation: engine deck with no other options (useful cards out, concerned about 3 pile, or not enough money left over), and silver might slow you down.  Do you buy scout or nothing?  I said probably scout.  Best argument I read against this was buying nothing is probably best.  I could be wrong, but I still don't see it.  If you draw a green card it's a delayed cantrip and about even.  In the end game, it's probably better than a cantrip a lot of the time.  There's also deck order changing which could help your current turn, and possible interactions with other cards.

35
Harvest, transmute, mandarin, coppersmith because it's so rare that they're playable.

Mandarin is one of my favorite cards. There are some great things you can do by buying and/or playing it in the deep endgame. ...Mandarin's on-buy does that.

I'd also argue you're underestimating the card's power... Gold equivalent and deck control is pretty good in BM endgames.



Agree that Mandarin was a poor example.

36


Scout often will weaken your deck. Probably not as often as, say coppersmith, but nothing is usually preferable to scout. However, there is something which typically is a good buy which wont run out - silver. Scout gives +1 action, so you can play it for free, but unless you are drawing more than one card, its a crappy cantrip. The deck reordering is ok, but in an engine, theres basically always other pieces to buy. And by the time there isn't its probably time to green. And if you have a bad draw, you probably want silver over scout. In big money, well you don't have very much green until endgame and the reordering is usually useless since you likely wont have card draw with your scout. And silver is even more beneficial in these types of games, so again, you prefer silver to scout.

EDIT: And just to clarify scout vs coppersmith here: if you just randomly stuck a scout in your deck, it will be, on average, preferable to putting a coppersmith in there. But there's bascially never a time where buying scout is the correct strategic choice since there is almost always something better to buy, and even if there isn't buying nothing is usually preferable. Coppersmith on the other hand is on occasion the correct thing to buy, and often can be quite powerful. On average, yeah it's weak, but it's still miles ahead of scout.
[/quote]

Sometimes you want silver, sometimes it clogs engines.  Depends on your deck.  Was never arguing scout>CS based on impact.  CS can be huge on the right board, but it happens very rarely.    Scout is the correct buy more often than CS and some other cards are.  Although it's rare when either of them are correct. 

37

The argument was that scout is playable more often than some other cards.  It's understood that it adds little to decks. Should it be bought more often than transmute, harvest or coppersmith?  I think so.


You'll find that pretty much every high level player will disagree with this statement. Well, maybe not about transmute, but the others for sure. WanderingWinder gave a good quick explanation on why this is true in his post. But to discuss the points you made, basically most uses you give scout could be fulfilled by ANY action that gives +1 action. And the fact is, the other cards will do additional beneficial things. So for scout to be useful in any of those situations it has to be literally the only card with +action. And if thats the case, there is most likely a better strategy using big money. As for scout/great hall/crossroads/etc, this is one of those things that seems like it should be good at first, but experience shows that it really just doesnt.

As for coppersmith and mandarin, well theres a lot of cards which are less often useful. Manadrin is an all around pretty average card. Maybe you should try buying it more? Coppersmith is bought less often, but can be quite strong when it is. And I guess harvest is sort of boring mechanically. It's not the weakest card, but I can see an argument for cutting it based on the blandness.

Scout does almost nothing for your deck- understood.  Useful cards for your deck are unavailable (maybe piles are out, maybe you don't have the money).  Should you buy nothing, scout or something that could possibly weaken your deck?  Probably scout.  Does this happen more often than situations in which it is correct to buy coppersmith or transmute? I think so.

38
Harvest, transmute, mandarin, coppersmith because it's so rare that they're playable. Scout's probably playable more often than any of those 4 cards.

There is no card less playable than scout. Transmute is close, but the other three you listed I've had a lot of games where they shine, or at least come in handy. And any card that can even rarely do really cool things (like the Mandarin/Horn of Plenty trick) I wouldn't want to cut.


KC, throne room, procession scout in games with no villages or cantrips to get + actions.
Scout, and then herald, wishing well or mystic.
Scout with great hall or crossroads.
Not saying it's a good card, just would rather have it more often than those other 4 cards.
Also not saying there's never anything cool you could to with those other 4 cards, just that I would rather get rid of them so more usable, more interesting cards are
in more kingdoms.


Scout is bad in all of those situations.
1. You don't need scout with these cards - just play them on themselves, you have plenty of actions.
2. This is not worth the effort. You'd be better off getting a different card.
3. I would rather have another great hall or crossroads, in the rare event that a strategy based on this is actually good....

I will say it's probably less crippling to your deck to have a random scout than a lot of other cards in a lot of games, but being less bad doesn't make it a better card - bad enough to not gain is more or less the worst you can go.

Scout's best use is definitely with Scrying pool, in some weird cases with limited villages or something. But it's pretty rare.

Edit: Coppersmith is really nice in big engines (huge money source), which ok, comes up pretty rare, but not THAT rare. And some other very edge cases. And Mandarin is actually just good with Big Money, gives a decent money source for some engines (and the put-back ability can be a boon for setting up your next turn in these cases). They certainly aren't great, but they definitely have their uses.

The argument was that scout is playable more often than some other cards.  It's understood that it adds little to decks. Should it be bought more often than transmute, harvest or coppersmith?  I think so.

Herald and wishing well piles often run quickly.  If there are no other enablers, it could be the best option to keep an engine running. 
In an ironmonger game, it could guarantee + actions if there are no villages.
They could help activate conspirators.  1 or 2 might be a better choice than an 8th market square. 
In big end turn games (HoP, goons, highway or bridge) you often don't want extra treasure, and drawing cards pile out, so with no other options, the best choice is scout.
They could stop an apothecary engine from clogging. 
In the (rare) scout, great hall example you would need scouts to get any benefit from the great halls right?
In the (very rare, edge case) scout, crossroads example a scout or 2 would be more useful than a 4th crossroads, if the goal is to draw deck, right?
Agree on TR, KC procession.  Didn't think that one through. 

The topic of the thread was cards you could happily do without.  I chose transmute, harvest, coppersmith and mandarin because of how often they are ignored and how often they add nothing at all to kingdoms.  Scout was used to illustrate how rarely those cards are used.  I could happily do without scout also.  I understand that there are games where these cards are playable and can even shine.  I'd just rather not have them and have more kingdoms where all/most cards are playable.

39
Harvest, transmute, mandarin, coppersmith because it's so rare that they're playable. Scout's probably playable more often than any of those 4 cards.

There is no card less playable than scout. Transmute is close, but the other three you listed I've had a lot of games where they shine, or at least come in handy. And any card that can even rarely do really cool things (like the Mandarin/Horn of Plenty trick) I wouldn't want to cut.

KC, throne room, procession scout in games with no villages or cantrips to get + actions.
Scout, and then herald, wishing well or mystic.
Scout with great hall or crossroads.
Not saying it's a good card, just would rather have it more often than those other 4 cards.
Also not saying there's never anything cool you could to with those other 4 cards, just that I would rather get rid of them so more usable, more interesting cards are
in more kingdoms.

40
Harvest, transmute, mandarin, coppersmith because it's so rare that they're playable. Scout's probably playable more often than any of those 4 cards.  Although I'd still probably get rid of scout just because cards like cartographer, crossroads, and vagrant do similar things and are so much better.

Possession because often it's a race to playing the most possessions while having a weak deck, and
stalemates are possible.  It could maybe be fixed by allowing only 1 play per turn, like tactician or outpost.

Possibly urchin and tournament because they're too swingy.

I could see IGG, JOAT and rebuild because they are the dominant strategy a little too often.  I would say IGG is dominant strategy more often than even rebuild.  And, IGG rush is much simpler to play than a straightforward rebuild strategy.  I would probably keep JOAT.  It seems like games in which only JOAT and treasure buys is best strategy are rare.

41
Dominion League / Re: Dominion League?
« on: January 30, 2014, 01:12:43 pm »
Sounds great.  I would suggest shorter cycles.  More movement between divisions would add interest and excitement.  And, it could be frustrating to play certain members regularly for a few months, have a few bad games, and then have to wait 2 months to play the members you're used to playing.

42
GokoDom / Re: GokoDom III: Third Theason Thign-up Thread
« on: January 22, 2014, 09:37:20 am »
In.  All sets, no promos.

44
Tournaments and Events / Re: Dominion Team World Cup Signup (closed)
« on: November 10, 2013, 10:14:00 pm »
US Team 1

jog
Andrew Iannaccone
A Drowned Kernel
Perry Green

Thanks for organizing this Qvist.  It looks great.

45
Tournaments and Events / Re: Dominion Team World Cup Signup
« on: November 06, 2013, 10:20:19 am »
Sounds fun.

JOG
US
all sets no promos

48
GokoDom / Re: GokoDom II: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« on: September 14, 2013, 12:59:54 pm »
1. http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130914/log.50a44d70e4b09c3f1c235128.1379168308059.txt
fabian 24-17
village, torturer, apprentice. 
He has 5/2 and gets an early apprentice.  The early trashing means his torturer chains are more reliable.  He picks up a trader late in the game, which I think was a nice buy.  Allows him to not discard from torturer attacks, and get silvers which could be fuel for apprentices.  Not sure what I could have done differently here.

2.  http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130914/log.50a44d70e4b09c3f1c235128.1379169098533.txt
fabian 36 jog 21
tactician, vault, storeroom, laboratory, bank
My plan is double tactician, vault.  He goes for single tactician, bank.  I open spice merchant, warehouse, planning to get the tactician after the first shuffle.  I can't get to 5 until turn 7, so I'm already far behind.  My double tactician deck finally gets going eventually, but it's way too late.  Maybe spice merchant, warehouse was wrong because it's not reliable enough to hit 5.  Anyway, I think single tactician was a much better choice here because of bank.

3.  http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130914/log.50a44d70e4b09c3f1c235128.1379169098533.txt
jog 38 fabian 31
ambassador, fishing village, counterfeit, oracle
I open double ambassador, he has 5/2 so can't get one and has to go counterfeit.  I get a little ahead in the ambassador war, and he starts greening.  My plan is to try to bury him in junk with ambassadors, but can't get enough draw with oracles and embassies.  I try alchemists to get more draw. I'm able to slow him down enough with ambassadors to catch up at the end. 

4.  http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130914/log.50a44d70e4b09c3f1c235128.1379171749523.txt
ambassador, king's court, masquerade, fortress

We both open double ambassador.  My ambassador draws were close to perfect, so I get ahead.  he picks up some masquerades and fortresses which allow him to even up the game.  We both end up hitting KC at about the same time.  I have more luck connecting KC and ambassador, which gives me the win.

5.  http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130914/log.50a44d70e4b09c3f1c235128.1379172980812.txt
minion, city, altar, forager   
fabian 14 jog 4
He has 5/2 and gets an early minion.  I open forager cutpurse.  Again, I can't get to 5 for a while.  Maybe open silver/cutpurse here? He wins the minion split 6/4. Then we go for cities, which he also wins 6/4.  I try to end it on my last turn, by altaring into a city, to give my other cities a plus buy.  Plan was to go for foragers.  But, I can't get enough money to empty the pile.  He has no problem winning the next turn with level 3 cities.

6.  http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130914/log.50a44d70e4b09c3f1c235128.1379174096899.txt
university, familiar, ironmonger, haggler, catacombs, merchant guild.  jog 9 fabian 1
We both open potion masquerade.  We both end up with 1 familiar and try to get an engine going with catacombs.  His second masquerade was strong.  I went for ironmonger instead of a second masquerade early.  That ironmonger didn't do much for me, while his masquerade helped trash and draw.  I thought I was beaten.  I get a province on turn 12 to prevent him from running out the piles.  He didn't draw well, and was unable to respond with his own province.  Myy last turn came together perfectly and I was able to run out the catacombs and curse to win on piles.

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