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Messages - TheEmerged

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1
As I've mentioned before, I bought Prosperity very shortly after buying the main set, so our group has pretty much had Colony & Platinum from the beginning.  As a result, we got into the habit of always having that 4th treasure & VP on the table... and we've ended up houseruling it.  I now keep all our alternate treasures & VP cards in a seperate box, and we randomly pick a fourth VP card every kingdom - and then semi-randomly pick a fourth Treasure.  I say semi-randomly because if the VP is Colony we just go ahead and use Platinum, and if the VP is Feodom everybody starts chanting for Masterpiece.  Until recently we only had 4 alt VP cards so about 25% of our games were Colony games. 

On the issue about how many VP cards... we've toyed with the notion of using "4 Provinces per player, 4th stack only counts as a stack" but we haven't actually tried it.  Most of our games are 3 or 4 players, we see a 5th player from time to time but it's almost never 2 player for us.

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General Discussion / Re: New TV shows (American edition)
« on: July 28, 2015, 12:42:35 pm »
RE: Flash.  There are actually numerous callbacks to the original series.  Besides "Dad" being the original actor (and giving that whole "...and justice for my father" thing an interesting twist), they used footage from the original series during Mark Hamil's return as Trickster, the mayor of Central City was played by one of the actors for the cops in the original series, the CEO of a rival research firm to STAR Labs was the actress for Tina (the love interest\scientist from the original), the theme snuck its way into the background music several times...

...oh, and Mark Hamil's Trickster gets an absolutely evil callback to one of his other roles during that episode as well.

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General Discussion / Re: Upgrading to Windows 10?
« on: July 27, 2015, 08:35:44 am »
At a previous place of employment, I spent about three weeks updating all the computers to Windows ME because the CFO* had read an article about how XP wasn't reliable.

About a week later, I was assigned about a three week task of updating all the ME machines to XP.   NOT the highpoint of my IT career, I assure you :o


*Yes, the CFO, not the CIO.  Long story I'd prefer to keep as a repressed memory...

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Dominion General Discussion / Re: Deckbuilders on Tabletop
« on: July 24, 2015, 08:56:22 am »
Jaybeez - there are people out there who think JarJar was one of the best parts of Phantom Menace.  I blame the Law Of Large Numbers - with a sufficiently large sample size, you will probably find someone that loves <insert here> and someone that despises <insert here>.  As for Q himself, I'm a subscriber to the fantheory that he's the same character from "The Squire of Gothos".

As to the topic... I wouldn't make overmuch of Tabletop in general.  Their emphasis is always at least 90% "how the players are acting", often way more.  They tend to get at least one rule wrong per episode and sometimes seem to have little\no idea how the gameplay of the featured game works out - the Stone Age episode was particularly bad for that.  The Forbidden Desert episode was almost physically painful for me (but I'm prone to psychosomatic pain).  I am guilty of wondering how much of their game selection is due to sponsorship at times, since it sometimes looks like everyone at the table is playing the portrayed game for the first time (I'd understand one or two new players - that's to be expected).

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Rules Questions / Re: Are 'Reaction' cards considered Action cards?
« on: July 23, 2015, 10:43:12 am »
Thank you for the confirmation.

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Rules Questions / Are 'Reaction' cards considered Action cards?
« on: July 23, 2015, 10:32:15 am »
Hello and thank you for your time.  I'm working on writing up an article about the card Inheritance - even if I don't submit it for this board, I'm doing it as a personal exercise - and I've run into something that hadn't occurred to me before and I've been unable to find anything specific on it.

Exhibit One: Inheritance, which can only target Non-victory Action cards in the Supply.
Exhibit Two: Fool's Gold, which has a type of "Treasure - Reaction".
Exhibit Three: Caravan Guard, chosen as a sample of another reaction card, which lists Action specifically in addition to Reaction.

So if I were ruling this on the fly, I'd say Fool's Gold is not an Action card - that Reaction is a separate type from Action, not a subset of it.  That appears to be the intent of the wording specifying Action cards instead of just Non-Victory cards.  But I'm still newb enough that I'd prefer a confirmation before embarrassing myself  :-X

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Dominion General Discussion / Re: Cards you hate!
« on: July 20, 2015, 02:36:05 pm »
RE: That BGG post.

Insert sarcastic comment about wanting those braincells back  ::)

I will say this tracks with my own experience: as our group gets better (I still wouldn't even think of trying tournament-level myself) we're ending on three-pile more often - we mentioned it at this weekend's game which technically ended with Province as the third pile (our first time trying Duke).  It makes a kind of sense: if certain cards are better, the better players are going to tend to buy the same cards and hence the chance of a 3-pile would go up.

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Dominion Articles / Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« on: July 14, 2015, 08:32:54 am »
So, pardon the relative newbie with a likely newbie question.

I finally had a chance to ply this solitaire a few times to try and get a handle on it.  After some false starts I finally got (something resembling) the hang of it, and on turn 14 it purchased 3 provinces, including #9.  This cost me 8 of the Counting Houses (CH) and would have emptied the copper deck in the 3-4 player games I typically play with the rest of the group.

Now for this test I was ignoring the existence of anything else (like Duchies), so obviously I want to go back and include them.  The reason I came here first is what I noticed when I counted the cards in the deck afterwards: it came in @ 65.  That's more than the Garden Threshold - the point at which a Garden is worth 6 VP.  I probably notice that because we got in the habit of always having a 4th VP and Treasure on the table (Prosperity was our first expansion, I had it before most of the group played the first time) so I probably see the alt-VP cards more often.

Has anyone else given any thought \ tests to how this interaction changes if Gardens is in the kingdom as well?

==============

Feel free to check my math.  I edited out some notes where I'm trying to figure out when to topdeck versus discard (it's rather obvious you always discard once this gets going but the early turns still aren't clear to me).


1. 3 coin = 2 copper, discard.
2. 4 coin = 3 copper, top deck.
3. 5 coin = First CH.  SHUFFLE.  16 cards in deck.
4. 4 coin + CH (unlucky) = 3 coin, discard.
5. 3 coin = 2 copper, top deck.
6. 5 coin = Second CH (a bit of luck, I think).  19 cards in deck.
7. 4 coin= 3 copper, discard.
8. 4 coin = 3 copper, discard.
9. 3 coin + both CH, resulting in 17 coin = our 13-coin engine starts.
   ○ TF x6, put 2 copper in discard and the 13-coin engine on top.
10. 4 coin + CH, resulting in 23 copper = 1st Province.
11. 4 coin + CH, resulting in 27 copper = 2nd Province + 2 copper
12. 4 coin + CH, resulting in 33 copper = 3rd & 4th Provinces
13. 4 coin + 6th CH, resulting in 37 copper = 5th & 6th Provinces + 2 copper
14. 4 coin + 7th CH, resulting in 43 copper = (8th CH) = 7th-9th Provinces

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Dominion: Adventures Previews / Re: Favorite Cards
« on: July 03, 2015, 04:37:46 pm »
I feel that I've played with them enough to have a reasonably informed opinion now.  So, with all the usual "based on my experience, your mileage probably varies, and so forth" disclaimers on the table and in no particular order...

>Amulet
Honestly, I think this one has hit the table every time we've had a "draft" (every player picks 1 card for the kingdom until there would be a remainder, so for our usual 4 players every player picks 2 and then then remainder are random).  I've probably done more theory work on it than any other card in the expansion; if I was picking a card from the expansion I'd want to write a strategy guide for, this would be it (for the record, I'm nowhere near good enough at the game to try this yet).  I haven't run into too many cards that make me think as hard about what to do in the standard 3/4 starter draw as Amulet has ended up doing.

>Inheritance
It's as if they held a competition to create a card that would convince us to actually buy Estates, and this is the card that won (*Disclaimer: we still don't have a copy of Intrigue in our group, it seems to be perpetually "the next expansion one of us ought to buy").  The craziest combination I've seen in-play so far was Marketplace, and that was nuts.

>Distant Lands
Disclaimer, I've turned into a sucker for alternate victory cards.  I think buying Prosperity as my first expansion spoiled our group; we've ended up always using a 4th victory card & 4th treasure card because we got used to it early on.  As such we're probably seeing this more than other groups do, since it's coming up in about 20% of our games.  It led to one of the more 'foundational' questions in the game yet ("Hey, how literally are we supposed to be taking these "put on the mat" cards?  If you used Island on Distant Lands, would DL be worth points or not?").  We decided on "Very literally", just for the record.

>Disciple
I had some good experiences with this card early on when we started with Adventures and that probably still colors my opinion of this card; it's definitely my favorite Traveller right now.  I've had one game where I got to three copies of it in deck, and it wasn't to keep someone from getting to Teacher.  I won that game on the strength of Disciple + Distant Lands, for the record.

>Ferry
...And suddenly, it mattered whether you started 3/4 or 4/3.  I do think it's interesting that we see the -2 cost token move around a lot more than any of the others.

HONORABLE MENTIONS
Ever look at a card, go "I bet there's an interesting interaction here, I'll have to go looking for it", but somebody beats you to it?  That's Travelling Fair in this expansion for me.  It had some obvious recursive potential but I ended up being too interested in other cards (cough Amulet, cough Inheritance, cough) to look into it enough before others found the path.

Alms also gets a special nod.  I think I've mentioned before that one of the players at the table is perhaps overly fond of Thief (even after having been beat with a treasureless strategy).  She hates this card now.

DISHONORABLE MENTION
Yeah, this is supposed to be favorites but... Guide.  I think I've seen this card backfire as often as I've seen it be useful.  I did see one weird case where somebody did this with Inheritance and a +Buy token that actually almost worked but... it's been way less useful in practice than it looked going in.  I hate to call it a disappointment and I won't call it the worst card in the expansion, but it is the one I like a *lot* less than I thought I would.

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Dominion: Adventures Previews / Re: Thoughts on Miser?
« on: June 16, 2015, 03:58:21 pm »
The following is based on my experience, with all the benefits & limitations thereof, and as always is subject to change.

Miser, like Raze, is a bit of a specialized trasher.  It obviously works best when there's not an obviously-better trasher available, or if there's something around throwing  lot of coppers at you.  Now, many trashers run into a problem in games where there are not curses\junking happening - you can get to a point where the trasher itself seems to be junk.  Both Raze & Miser however get around this - Raze by having the ability to trash itself, and Miser by being worth money in the later game.

I have in fact seen it against Mountebank and the results were actually disappointing - it dealt with the coppers well but if you need a second card to ditch the curses, the second card can get the coppers too.  Without the second card it was merely a "better than nothing" option.

It works well enough with Treasure Trove one has to wonder if it was intended.  Like "Giant" it works well with Royal Carriage.

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Dominion General Discussion / Re: How do you feel about Champion?
« on: June 16, 2015, 01:14:06 pm »
Maybe you should have gotten more than one...

We've seen it in about a dozen games so far.  I like the card, but we did have one case of Warrior elimination.  Of course, that player had two traveller sets going in their deck and it didn't have much of an effect.  Even then, I don't see this as a problem with Champion but with forced trashing effects - which you have to admit can be devastating.

Ironically, Champion's effects don't stack well with itself.  Oh the jokes write themselves.

My overall opinion remains similar to my initial one - it's a powerful effect hampered by how long\much effort it takes to get to the table.  By the time it hits, critical early turns have already been lost to attacks and you've probably had to buy a village or two by now anyway.

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DISCLAIMER: we've played with Adventures - some by itself, some with the base set - but of course opinions could change as we play more.

*How many Peasants do you buy?.
I've yet to see more than 2 bought by a single player.  Conventional Wisdom (CW) in our group seems to point toward buying them early or not at all.

* Which upgrade do you try to get the most of?.
Disciple, although I have seen a case where a player got to two soldiers and stopped.

* Which upgrade is most useful? \ * Do you ever intentionally not get a Teacher?.
Currently, the CW in our group is that Disciple might be better than Teacher.  This belief was unanimous until we had a case where the Teacher got a +Card token on Magpie and Hilarity Ensued(tm) - majority opinion though is that this was a case of Magpie being awesome not Teacher being great.  The fact that the tokens from Teacher can't stack (you could move a token from another source to be with a Teacher token but not the other way around) seems to be the biggest knock on it, with "by the time this gets to the table..." also being mentioned.

RE: Doubling Disciples
It "works", but probably not the way hoped for.  We actually had this come up and the way I figured it...
1> Play the first Disciple
2> Play the second Disciple by the first one (see #7)
3> Play the first non-Disciple action (Distant Lands in this case) - and it leaves the player's hand, as opposed to King's Court & Throne Room "revealing" it, so you can't play it again as #5.
4> Gain a copy of Distant Lands
5> Play the second non-Disciple action (Duplicate in this case) - see #3.
6> Gain a copy of Duplicate
7> You do NOT get a copy of Disciple since it is not in the Supply
8> Either or both Disciples could be exchanged for Teacher (in our case, neither was upgraded)

...I could of course have ruled that wrong.

13
And you could use the +Buy to buy more Estates!  Estate rushes might be a thing now actually.

I have actually seen this with Inheritance assigned to Market (thanks to Ferry).  One player bought up half the remaining Estates on a single turn.

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Dominion General Discussion / Re: IRL Adventures stories
« on: May 16, 2015, 08:10:28 pm »
So, we finally got Adventures to the table this week.  We were running with just Base + Adventures today, we're going to try it with more sets next week.  We play by a house rule by which we always have a fourth Victory card and a fourth Treasure card (usually but not always random).  We've decided that when we use events, we will select 2 (usually but not always at random).  For the record we have Base, Prosperity, Seaside, Guilds, Dark Ages, and now Adventures available between the players at the table.  Amusingly, Intrigue is still "probably the next set one of us should buy" (that's been true since I just had Base & Prosperity). 

We did one time with the 'suggested' kingdom "Level Up", three semi-random ones, and one "let's try <insert here>" game.  For the <insert here> we wanted to try the Ferry (-2 cost token) and Inheritance (the Estate token) events at the same time with some choice cantrip\non-terminal events, and one of the players talked the rest of us into a kingdom that seemed to favor the Gardens victory card - including Magpie, Treasure Trove, Port, and Duplicate.  He wanted the Peasant line for Disciple too, but was outvoted because we'd already tried the Peasant chain twice and wanted to try Page.

Some overall talking points \ amusing incidents.
1> We had two separate cases where someone got 4 Silver cards at once from the Treasure Hunter.

2> Champion hasn't made it to the table yet - there were 2 in decks when that game ended - but on the Peasant line it became conventional wisdom that Disciple just might be a better card than Teacher (not being able to stack the tokens was disliked).  During the second random game the Page line was out and Distant Lands was the 4th Victory stack when one of the players played them together - and ended up getting 6 DL's onto his mat (only to come in third, by 2 points, if that tells you how tight that game was).  Yeah, there's no point in playing DL twice but that "play and then get a copy" thing worked out.  And yes, we did see a case where a Disciple discipled a Disciple who then discipled two other action cards, the player joking that normally she'd call it bad luck to have four terminal actions in hand...

3> Plan (the trashing token event) underwhelmed, to the surprise of several of us.  For us the jury is still out as to whether Amulet or Ratcatcher is the better trasher in this set (Amulet is more versatile and could potentially hit 2, but RC is targeted).  We only had Raze out once and as feared the problem seemed to be that most of the cards you want to trash are 0-cost cards.

4> As an aside on Amulet, I'm hoping to run some test games with it.  A couple of times there it looked like this might be a better choice in a 4/3 opener than a Silver.  It sure worked out well for me in one of the games when I opened Amulet\Silver just to see what would happen...

5> I wondered if Caravan Guard would make more sense when it hit the table, and it wasn't until the "Gardens" game that the lightbulb went on.  One of the players inherited it and we realized the strength is that it gives you a coin immediately instead of a turn later when an attack card comes out.  It's still not my favorite reaction card by any stretch, but I think I get it now.

6> Magpie is... I won't say "evil" because we saw it its downside during the "Gardens" game but I suspect it's going to stay popular.  However we almost saw it backfire spectacularly.  The first time it was on the table one of the players managed a string where he gained 3 of them during the same turn, bought a Magpie, then used Duplicate on it.  One of the other players then congratulated him... then held up the Swamp Hag he'd forgotten she had in play.  "Oh <curse word>, is that on Gain or on Buy?!?!?" was the frightened response.  During the "Gardens" game, where Ferry & Inheritance were available, two of the four players put the Estate token on Magpie.

7> So, the Gardens game came out much closer than it looked during play.  During play it looked like one particular player was running away with it, and it wasn't the player buying Gardens.  By the Gardens player's admission (ahem, me) he made the mistake of buying too many Magpies too early - when he should have started scoring Treasure Troves earlier.  So there was a point in the mid-game where Magpie kept revealing other Magpie but there weren't any Magpies left to gain, and he had too many turns with too few coins to buy anything useful.  The deciding factor turned out to be... the Soldier.  See, the Gardens player ended up with 7 Gardens (thanks primarily to Duplicate and Workbench), and 48 cards in the deck.  The margin of victory turned out to be only 6 points, so two more cards in deck and that player would have won.  Of course, that player had twice been victimized by the Soldier's "trash it if the card is value 3 or 4" ability when, of course, the card was a Magpie.  Oh, and I'd like to point out that game was 3 cards away from being ended due to 3 empty stacks when the final Province was bought.

8> The Save event turned out to be a better card than I might have thought.  I'm not calling it the most powerful or best event but it went from "meh, nice enough I guess" to "hey, I just bought a Province thanks to that Gold I set aside last turn after getting just a Gold & Copper for treasures that turn" and "hey, I just got away with double-drawing terminal actions and it wasn't a waste".  It had us wanting to try Gear's similar mechanic again (and yes, I read here and saw it was optional before we played).

9> One of our players tends to be more aggressive than the others - her favorite card is Thief, to the point her dad (one of the other players) does everything but disallow it  8) .  She kept going back and forth about whether or not she likes the token penalties - they hurt just as bad and sometimes worse than the others (I think Swamp Hag is now her 2nd favorite card) but kept complaining that they don't stack - if the -1 card token is already on the deck, there's no power to a second one.

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RE: Tenth Card.  Boy, do *I* feel stupid right now...  I mentioned my tendency to overthink things, yes?

RE: "Timing" comment.  From http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/King%27s_Court
"You cannot play any other cards in between resolving the King's Court-ed Action card multiple times, unless that Action card specifically tells you to (such as King's Court itself does). "  My habit of overthinking things made me wonder what this meant for cards that would be coming into the hand while KC was still resolving.  I think it's a fault of mine, not the wording.

RE: "Dummy Opponent".  That's essentially what I've been doing.  During my test games Player One goes essentially "Aggressive Big Money", or BM + whatever attack card is available, while Player 3 goes "card drawing BM", like BM+Smithy.  I then try to do something creative with 2 & 4.

Tried a slightly different kingdom and I think I see where you folks are going with the repeated statements about how I wasn't trashing nearly enough.  I had one of the four decks get 7 colonies this time.  I also managed to pull a combo I'd thought about but never managed to get into play (KC + Goons + Watchtower + village-type), but it took longer to get going than I expected so even though it was generating 6-8 victory tokens a turn it ended up in third place.

RE: City.  I suspect this won't keep happening, but right now I'm typically seeing it bought pretty heavily.

Oh, and this was the first time I've seen more than a couple of Grand Markets bought.   Insert joke about trashing coppers here...

Thanks again for the advice.

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You only need one chapel.  And if you feel you need more, you're doing it wrong.  You want to get a chapel on either turn one or two, and whenever it's in your hand, you trash all the coppers and estates you can.

It's more Curses, as I seem to have an amusingly consistent ability to have either Witch or Mountebank drawn when randomly drawing kingdom cards.  I haven't managed both yet, but it's likely just a matter of time.

17
Thank you for the responses.  I did another 'test' run this morning (myself playing all four decks) to try and sort some of this out.  The kingdom was Chapel, Watchtower, Feast, Quarry, City, Mine, Mountebank, Vault, Expand, and a tenth one that escapes me right now.  Colony & Plat were in the supply as well.

If I came across as bad-mouthing the the card, that wasn't my intent.  I was just seeing a gap between the way people were talking about the card & how effective it *looked*, versus how little I'd seen it accomplish in play since it always seemed to come up bare or with something ineffective like Chapel or Watchtower.

RE: Comments regarding Mountebank.  See, this looks like it would be awesome, but I've yet to see this one land.  In this run one of the decks ended with 33 cards - including 5 MB's, a chapel, and two KC's.  Most of the time KC was drawn bare, and the other two times it was drawn with Chapel.

RE: Trashing.  I believe there's a good point here, but the ironic thing is I've seen KC drawn with a Chapel almost as much as I have any other combination.  I feel like half the time I'm buying too many chapels and the other half I'm not buying enough.  I may be back on the board for more advice here in the future.

RE: Engine.  Okay, so my instincts were partially right that I was looking for KC in the wrong kind of deck.  I had two of them in a deck with a lot of Cities this time and... at least twice, the deck had every card either in hand or in play.  Copy-paste that "I may be back" comment above here too (so far, I've only been able to reliably create engines with City).

RE: Timing\question 3.  It appears I was reading too much into a comment on the wiki about other effects not resolving until KC itself was resolved.  It was making me wonder if other cards weren't supposed to come into the hand until it was done.  Interestingly, the Expand example I mentioned actually came up during this test run.

Thanks again for the answers.

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Dominion General Discussion / Newbie Questions regarding King's Court
« on: March 25, 2014, 05:14:20 pm »
Hello and thank you for your time. 

For starters, some heavily abbreviated backstory.  Our local gaming group has recently been catching up on board\card games that came out when most of us were playing World of Warcraft and Skyrim.  Thanks to a bookstore going-out-of-business sale, I found a copy of Dominion cheap and picked it up.  I took it to a session where we were planning on a number of different games and ended up spending most of the time with Dominion.  Based on some comments by other board\card game players at work, I picked up the Prosperity expansion next (full cost).  Just for the record, Intrigue is probably next but likely a couple of months off.

My current skill level could probably be described as "Can often beat Big Money, but still usually playing Big Money + (insert here)."  I can't quite reliably get an engine going yet.

I have some particular questions about the card King's Court, which I seem to have some trouble getting to work right.  I've seen it work a few times, even spectacularly once (hand was King's Court, Mint, Platinum, Watchtower, Copper).  Most of the time, however, I'm seeing it either drawn solo (the only action card in the hand) or played on an engine-type action (Village\Workers Village\City\Vault).  I checked around the site & the wiki (which were a lot of help with other cards) but I seem to be missing some key detail here.

To Wit...

1> Am I missing something obvious about the type of deck that wants to buy it?  It's somewhat less than satisfactory in my probably-incomplete engine type decks (entirely possible I'm more of a "Village Idiot" than I realize), and seems to have an annoying tendency to be drawn solo in any other type of deck I'm trying it in.

2> How should this work with the ratio of action cards in the deck?  If the normal ratio is "just shy of 1 action card per 5 cards in deck, unless it's a cantrip", how should I be figuring KC into this?

3> I'm a touch confused about some of the rules regarding its timing.  I understand for example how it works with Goon (I'll get the +coin and +buy functions three times, but victory token effect only happens once because there's still only one Goon in play).  I'm pretty sure I got the "spectacular" example above correct (the Platinum remained in my hand, so each time the Mint copied it).  I'm faily certain that (for example) Expand I would have to use it on three different cards in my hand because the expanded card gets trashed each time.  But what about something like Mine?  Would I be able to start with trashing a Copper to gain a Silver, then trashing that Silver for a Gold, and then that Gold for a Platinum?  Or would that fall under the rule about other effects not resolving during the King's Court?

Thank you for your time.

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