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Messages - EvanC

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1
Game Reports / Re: A pretty funny game using a non commun strategy!
« on: December 24, 2013, 08:47:56 pm »
Edit: Oh and I was telling you to stop buying actions because I thought you had WON and didn't need more engine pieces to keep the pin going, but let me look through the log and see if I'm wrong.

He needed those extra pieces for better consistency during his greening face. You were really close to having half of the VP, so missing the complete pin even once could have been devastating. Yes, he'd probably win without the extra components, but it's a pretty clear mistake to reduce your winning chances from ~99% to, say, 95% just to get it over with sooner. And if you're really convinced you've lost and don't want to sit out the rest of the game, you can always click the resign button.

Yeah I wasn't complaining, it was a friendly "do you really need that" once I was pretty sure it was locked up. Tricky enough that I waited it out though.

2
Game Reports / Re: A pretty funny game using a non commun strategy!
« on: December 24, 2013, 04:01:28 pm »
I blame myself for not seeing this coming sooner - I think this strategy is too slow to beat the apprentice/BM thing I was doing - I just didn't buy enough money initially and didn't end the game fast enough like you're saying. I was watching American Horror Story :(. My rating drops when I watch TV while I play but... w/e.


 Definitely an interesting one. I let you play it out because I was only 2 points away from having half the VP and locking a win... one more province or a few more estates and your engine would have been too slow.

But congrats on pulling off the pin!

Edit: Oh and I was telling you to stop buying actions because I thought you had WON and didn't need more engine pieces to keep the pin going, but let me look through the log and see if I'm wrong.

3
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Silverspawn's trashing formula
« on: December 13, 2013, 11:40:27 pm »
I remember that argument. I forgot to bring this up, but I wanted to know what people think of an Ambassador/Lookout opening. I think there are boards where it's better than both Amb/Amb and Lookout/Lookout. I know I've won with that opening against Amb/Amb on a board that had very little engine potential.

Nice to see a compilation of 'ratios' though.

In this specific situation I could see this opening being stronger. If there are no plus actions to keep the ambassadors from colliding once you trim your deck down, going amb/lookout means your two trashers will never collide. Once your deck becomes rich enough you don't want to lookout, it becomes an ambassador target.

4
\
No its part of the mechanics!! You define what constitutes "killing" the final piece, then you set that as a condition for victory. This implies that there is an ability to protect that piece.

In Dominion, with the three pile, there is no definition of "killing" a vital piece (and thus no ability to "protect" that vital piece).. Thus the opponent basically "kills" me by buying a card and there's NOTHING I can do to protect that card for being bought

So the last card of the third pile is the king and it can be killed by..... *drumroll* being bought! And there's NO way to protect that king.

You do realize that the flavor is only there to make the game more interesting/colorful/eye catching right? It doesn't have any bearing on competitive play.

You're arguing this rule shouldn't exist because... you can't come up with a good enough flavor explanation for why it makes sense?

5
Well, this is an immoral way to have an argument.

Why couldn't it be more like this:


#23396 +(36053)- [X]
<Donut[AFK]> HEY EURAKARTE
<Donut[AFK]> INSULT
<Eurakarte> RETORT
<Donut[AFK]> COUNTER-RETORT
<Eurakarte> QUESTIONING OF SEXUAL PREFERENCE
<Donut[AFK]> SUGGESTION TO SHUT THE FUCK UP
<Eurakarte> NOTATION THAT YOU CREATE A VACUUM
<Donut[AFK]> RIPOSTE
<Donut[AFK]> ADDON RIPOSTE
<Eurakarte> COUNTER-RIPOSTE
<Donut[AFK]> COUNTER-COUNTER RIPOSTE
<Eurakarte> NONSENSICAL STATEMENT INVOLVING PLANKTON
<Miles_Prower> RESPONSE TO RANDOM STATEMENT AND THREAT TO BAN OPPOSING SIDES
<Eurakarte> WORDS OF PRAISE FOR FISHFOOD
<Miles_Prower> ACKNOWLEDGEMENT AND ACCEPTENCE OF TERMS

(source: bash.org)

7
I think , CG, that your objection comes from the fact that three piling accentuates first player advantage in certain circumstances and therefore in your view obscures "true" skill at the game.

But look at it this way:

I don't think anyone on this forum will disagree with the fact that certain board/kingdom combinations have larger first player advantages than others. If I open 5/2 on a cultist board with no trashing or sifting, I have no doubt my win percentage is greater than 50% in most circumstances - all through luck. But consider this

1. A single game isn't a good way to judge Dominion skill. It's a fast, random game - you need to play many games against an individual to know who's better and I may win a game through skill (say, because I saw a faster combo/opportunity) against a player who is in general much better than me.

2. Even if your win percentage is low for a given circumstance, you can still improve it through superior play (and your opponent's inferior play). I don't know of any kingdoms with a 100% first player win rate - there's always room for skill to play a factor. Maybe you only win as second player 40% of the time on a given kingdom, but a top 10 player wins 45% of the time... the fact the first player may win more often doesn't impact the ability of win/loss rates to show skill - after all, you're the first player half the time. Dominion is all about maximizing your play under constraints (the kingdom, the hand you drew), this is just another constraint - as are situations where you know you are at a disadvantage from the start.

The fact is, I think any of your fixes actually limit the diversity of strategies one can use and limit the ability of skill to play an impact on the game in the long run.

To be honest, cards that prevent me from three piling would be very frustrating. What's so special about provinces that they can't be blocked? If you want better measures of skill, play more games - don't just turn every game into a province race.

4 provinces 4 estates / 4 provinces 3 estates is just as silly an outcome as anything you've suggested.


8

I understand. But I still think the problem is deeper than that. The thing I love in Dominion is that there are so many creative ways of defending yourself. The only card that offers defense against three-piling prematurely is embargo. Even then, it can be weak in many cases for this purpose.

If there were action cards that could do an embargo effect every time you played them, I would be satisied. If there were a card that could "lock" up a pile for x number of turns, I would be satisfied. If there were an attack card that gave someone a curse every time they bought something during their turn, I would be satisfied.

I think those who do the quick and dirty three pile ftw have a very strong trump card in their pocket, and perhaps the real problem is a complete lack of cards to combat this strategy.. You must admit its the most vicious attack in the game and the only defense we have is
A) don't buy powerful cards that your opponent is hoarding or
B) Sabotage your deck hand by greening early, which allows him to counter by building a better engine than you, making you wish you bought a king's court instead of that province, or making you wish you bought a platinum instead of that province you bought for insurance.

I realize there are more games than not where you can walk the line with finesse but there are some games where its a lose-lose situation if your opponent is an aggressive three piler.

You're defining "defense" very narrowly - three piling isn't an attack, it's a game ending condition. You defend against it the same way you defend against someone "attacking" you by buying provinces to end the game: have more victory points when the condition is triggered.

I can't help but think your scenario B amounts to "If I do anything he'll just outplay me" or "It's hard to time my engine, he always does it better than me". I agree with you that KC games can be fast and unpredictable - but I'll tell you one thing, I'm WAY better at them now than when I started playing. There is certainly a skill element.

9
No player can reliably protect against ANY strategy, though.



Thanks for your response.

Generally, you are correct. But you guys can't possibly tell me that a skilled player can reliably protect against it because in some cases doing so would mean forgoing indispensable cards necessary to compete and because there is a complete lack of means to defend against the "sudden, abrubt, premature three pile" that I loath. Furthermore, the third player can completely ruin my defensive measures.

Case in point:

I was playing a game tonight where all three of us stock up on quarrys and everyone just starts going to town on the border villages and wharfs, then they move on to the conspirators..

So what do I do to defend against this? Do I not buy the wharfs or border villages and opt for harvest instead? Even this is a weak defense because the greedy bastards will drain those piles whether I do it or not.

Now in this game the border village pile and wharf pile were emptied by turn 5 or 6.., by turn 7 or 8 the conspirators were down to (2) remaining...

So what do I do? Buy a province and hope for the best? They'd just buy a province and an estate and the last two conspirators.

And don't say "well its your fault you didn't get the first megaturn" because

A) I wasn't the first player.
B)Everyone had equal decks, everyone acquired their decks at the same rate and the same way.

So it truly is more skewed in the direction of luck. Please, someone admit to me that this rule is problematic in some cases, and some players are content to let luck determine the game just so they "win"



First,  three player games are always going to feel "unfair" - with three equal skilled players you only win 1/3 of the time and so on. Yes, this is mostly going to feel like "luck" and "turn order" in a game based on buying a very finite number of cards.


I don't understand your definition of problematic. You've said before that you essentially thinks it's better to let engines "duke it out" in the long run over VP cards piling because this is somehow a better measure of player skill than three pile endings. But in the situation you just described, everyone has the same strategy - you're all just scrambling for villages, wharfs and conspirators.

Where would the skill difference come in if the game continued? You'll end up with the same first player advantage problem when buying out the last few provinces

Making the game last longer (by not letting the game end with three piles) only kicks the can down the road in terms of player advantage.

Your example of why you are helpless if you buy a province ("he'll just buy a province and an estate and the last two conspirators") ignores the fact that YOU could have started buying VP earlier (say, a province and two estates) so that HE only has enough for a province and one estate and YOU can end the game by buying the last conspirator. So what if the game kept going when the piles are empty? one of you will just win because of shuffle luck or better splits. Same difference.

Sure, you may lose if one of your opponents doesn't stop buying cards and ends the game when he has no chance of winning - but the fact that the three pile rule makes "kingmaking"  easier in 3+ player games doesn't make the rule problematic, it makes those players problematic.



10
Treasure Map doesn't benefit form the top-deck ability either.

It could -

Turn 1: buy Treasure map

Turn 2: buy Watchtower

Turn 3: Draw 4 copper and watchtower, buy treasure map, top deck with watchtower

Turn 4: most likely draw double treasure map


Not saying this is common, or a good idea, but if you know the treasure map is down (courtyarded etc) it can be used to hit two.

11
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Luck-based Cards
« on: December 09, 2013, 11:04:33 pm »
Seems to me like what you're describing might be better called "top deck composition" cards, which come in two flavors - "player" deck and "opponent" deck. Since you can manipulate the top cards of your deck with filtering and know things about them by tracking your deck composition/draw (or looking at them via wishing well, scout, etc) "luck" doesn't really cover it - sometimes you can exert a lot of control (or guess with 100% accuracy).

Obviously Dominion is a heavily (shuffle) luck dependent game and and I think when you get down to it talking about the "luck" of what the next two cards in your deck are isn't really different than the "luck" of what's in your hand - you were going to draw those two cards next, just like you drew the five cards you're holding.

There is another class of "true" random/luck based cards with a non-deck shuffle randomness component - knights and black market.

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