Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Game Reports => Topic started by: ragingduckd on November 12, 2013, 03:39:17 am

Title: Knights + Possession = Screw You, DXV
Post by: ragingduckd on November 12, 2013, 03:39:17 am
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/2/2b/Remake.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Remake) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/9/9a/Knights.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Knights) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/e/ed/Tactician.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Tactician) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/f/f3/Witch.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Witch) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/3/3b/Possession.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Possession)
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/d/df/Hamlet.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Hamlet) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/f/f7/Develop.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Develop) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/9/97/Oracle.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Oracle) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/7/70/Sage.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Sage) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/0/0c/Envoy.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Envoy)
Code: [Select]
Hamlet, Develop, Oracle, Sage, Envoy, Remake, Knights, Tactician, Witch, Possession
Game Log (http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131112/log.5101a6c4e4b02b7235c3860f.1384244782598.txt)

It took me a while to realize that Possession is an awesome counter to Tactician.  It took my opponent a while to realize that possessing a deck full of Knights is bad business.

I thought I was winning on T19, but I resigned just because the game was just so horrible to play.

Overall, I suspect the best plan was to just stock up on knights and Hamlets and forget about Tactician and Possession, planning to cripple the other player and then grab a few VP and win on a 3-pile.  In the mirror... hell, I have no idea.  Really, I don't even like to think about this board... anyone else want to do it for me?
Title: Re: Knights + Possession = Screw You, DXV
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on November 12, 2013, 03:55:33 am
Might depend on what knights came up. With Hamlet on the board Dame Natalie might actually shine.
Title: Re: Knights + Possession = Screw You, DXV
Post by: ashersky on November 12, 2013, 05:29:26 am
Would it be crazy to just Remake-Witch-BM+Knights while your opponent builds up to Possession/Tac?  You can probably be greening by the time it is reliable, plus feeding curses will slow him down.
Title: Re: Knights + Possession = Screw You, DXV
Post by: DG on November 12, 2013, 08:30:37 am
Start with a witch as the top knight is poor and your opponent didn't open with a remake. This sets up a three pile finish after curses and hamlets run. Possession is needed for any longer game to stop your opponent's engine building. The hamlet/oracle drawing chain was laborious so you needed to get out of that.
Title: Re: Knights + Possession = Screw You, DXV
Post by: Polk5440 on November 12, 2013, 11:37:13 am
Quote from: ragingduckd on November 12, 2013, 03:39:17 am
Really, I don't even like to think about this board... anyone else want to do it for me?

No.

Possession and Knights? Ugh.
Title: Re: Knights + Possession = Screw You, DXV
Post by: Qvist on November 12, 2013, 12:36:17 pm
This board is a Knightmare.  :P *ducks*

I would have opened Remake here and get Hamlets on the way and a Tactician asap. Basically what you did.
Later I would have remade a $3 cost into a Potion to get a Possession. But otherwise, I would have mostly ignored Knights here and just get a Witch later on.
Probably a big mistake. I don't know.
Title: Re: Knights + Possession = Screw You, DXV
Post by: ragingduckd on November 12, 2013, 12:38:46 pm
Okay, so here's my actual analysis.  Despite how irritating it was to actually play, I find this board very interesting.  The strategic challenge is that so many plausible strategies strongly counter each-other:
Overall, I see strong counters to just about every productive strategy, which is why I went for a strategy of crippling my opponent with Knights.  There's a lot I'd change about my play in the game, but I still think this is the best plan.

Unfortunately, my opponent's multi-Possession response forced me to make it Knights + scorched earth, lest he buy enough stuff to survive the Knights long enough to 3-pile me.  This left me wanting to claw my eyes out.  Hence my apparent confusion of strategic ideas towards the end, my T19 ennui-drive resignation, and the thread title.

Quote from: A Drowned Kernel on November 12, 2013, 03:55:33 am
Might depend on what knights came up. With Hamlet on the board Dame Natalie might actually shine.

Agree.  Natalie and Michael are both huge for a Knight engine.

Quote from: ashersky on November 12, 2013, 05:29:26 am
Would it be crazy to just Remake-Witch-BM+Knights while your opponent builds up to Possession/Tac?  You can probably be greening by the time it is reliable, plus feeding curses will slow him down.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Remake-Witch-BM+Knights".  I usually think of Witch-BM as two Witches + treasure, though a Remake would certainly help.  I can see adding Dame Molly or Sir Bailey to that, but additional terminal Knights sound like trouble.

Double-Tac + Possession vs Witch-BM is an interesting question.  Tac/Poss wins in the long run, but as you suggest, there may not be a long run.  I think it's moot though, as the better counter to Witch-BM is double-Tac with Knights, which I suspect will win handily.

Quote from: DG on November 12, 2013, 08:30:37 am
Start with a witch as the top knight is poor and your opponent didn't open with a remake. This sets up a three pile finish after curses and hamlets run. Possession is needed for any longer game to stop your opponent's engine building. The hamlet/oracle drawing chain was laborious so you needed to get out of that.

I'm not really sure how to respond to these four apparently unrelated sentences, but I'd be happy to hear an elaboration.
Title: Re: Knights + Possession = Screw You, DXV
Post by: SCSN on November 12, 2013, 12:53:45 pm
Quote from: ragingduckd on November 12, 2013, 12:38:46 pm
Remake weakens Witch

Only very marginally, and it certainly doesn't make it ignorable.

I'd open Remake/Silver and want at least one Witch and probably two before any other 5-cost, regardless of what the top Knight is and regardless of whether my opponent opens Remake or not. What I'd do after that (besides getting tons of Hamlets) really depends on how my opponent responds. If he ignores Witch you can do whatever you want while you wait for him to clean up 10 Curses.
Title: Re: Knights + Possession = Screw You, DXV
Post by: DG on November 12, 2013, 02:43:25 pm
Quote
I'm not really sure how to respond to these four apparently unrelated sentences, but I'd be happy to hear an elaboration.

Ok I can join the dots for you. Start with remake and look to get some early hamlet/witch drawing chains. You will probably need a possession if your opponent starts any engine building (tactician, hamlet/envoy, etc). As you move into an end game a tight deck with knights will probably dominate so pick up knights at smart times. All this requires lots of actions so this means many hamlets with a minimum of oracles to keep the deck running and not a full hamlet/oracle drawing chain. The game should not drag out as long as yours since curses and hamlets should empty quickly. The endgame will still be tricky and it will be possible to lose from a reasonable lead.
Title: Re: Knights + Possession = Screw You, DXV
Post by: ragingduckd on November 12, 2013, 05:31:36 pm
Quote from: SheCantSayNo on November 12, 2013, 12:53:45 pm
Quote from: ragingduckd on November 12, 2013, 12:38:46 pm
Remake weakens Witch

Only very marginally, and it certainly doesn't make it ignorable.

I'd open Remake/Silver and want at least one Witch and probably two before any other 5-cost, regardless of what the top Knight is and regardless of whether my opponent opens Remake or not. What I'd do after that (besides getting tons of Hamlets) really depends on how my opponent responds. If he ignores Witch you can do whatever you want while you wait for him to clean up 10 Curses.

I agree with Remake/Silver and with tons of Hamlets, but I don't think Witch is as crippling as you suggest in the post-Remake landscape.  The engine's going to be just fine by the time you can start throwing Curses, particularly because of how awesomely fast Remake builds an engine out of Hamlets and Oracles.

After a Remake open, you can reasonably expect to buy a Witch on T5 or T6 and play it for the first time on T7 or T8.  Your opponent first draws a Curse on his next shuffle.  My T8 deck was 3 Hamlet, 3 Oracle, Dame Molly, Sir Vander, Tactician, Remake, Silver, 5 Copper.  Even though it's only T8, it's already "late" enough that Curses aren't a serious threat and that Knights are better than Witches.
Title: Re: Knights + Possession = Screw You, DXV
Post by: blueblimp on November 13, 2013, 04:02:55 am
Envoy is glorious here because of the strong trashing and tightness of +action. (Getting +4 cards for 1 action is very efficient.) I'm surprised to not see Envoy get more love in this thread. Why even bother with Oracle? (Edit: Duh, because to pick cards for Knights to trash. I still kinda prefer Envoy even though it'll mean whiffing Knight plays more often.)

I don't know what's best here but I'd probably open Remake/Silver, grab 1 Witch (for the junking) and then try to win the Knight split while grabbing Hamlets and just enough Envoys. Things get interesting because the Knights, Hamlets, and Curses are all in danger of depleting, and it's hard to say in which order. In any case, Possession will be weak against a deck of Hamlet+Envoy+Knight, and hard to buy in the first place in a kingdom that's so quickly brutal. That makes getting an early Tactician an intriguing possibility, but I don't know how best to fit it in.
Title: Re: Knights + Possession = Screw You, DXV
Post by: ragingduckd on November 13, 2013, 05:42:27 am
Quote from: blueblimp on November 13, 2013, 04:02:55 am
Why even bother with Oracle? (Edit: Duh, because to pick cards for Knights to trash. I still kinda prefer Envoy even though it'll mean whiffing Knight plays more often.)

Also because you get Oracles for "free" from remaking Estates.  I had an Envoy for a while, but I couldn't resist remaking it. :)