Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion Online at Shuffle iT => Dominion General Discussion => Goko Dominion Online => Topic started by: ragingduckd on November 08, 2013, 11:58:18 pm
-
Dominionologist, Goko's mysterious #2 ranked player, is a cheat. But he's really a much finer class of cheat than we've ever had before. I had to run some fancy-pants queries on the drunkensailor database to figure out what he's been doing. I don't think I could have spotted it just by looking at his log search record.
Here's his scam:
- Create a guest account and establish its rating.
- Lose a bunch of games to your main account.
- Repeat.
And here's the evidence (see attached files):
- 30 of Dominionologists 450 pro games were played against four "superstar" guests.
- These guests had all established very high ratings, mostly by clobbering mid-range players but also by winning a handful of games against hotshots like jog and Mic Q.
- Dominiologist won every single one of those 30 games.
This is really much more sophisticated than what ooksoo did or what ottocar does. It's only possible because Dominiologist is already a fairly strong player and because of some formula-defying nonsense of Goko's rating system (he's only #64 on Isotropish). He also puts in a lot of extra effort to make it look good:
- Over 90% of his games are real matches against real opponents, so the sham games don't stand out.
- His guests behave plausibly. He interleaves the games he plays as a guest with those he plays as himself and with the sham games they play against each other. He spaces the guest's games out over days to make the pattern less obvious.
- He actually plays out the sham games. Now admittedly, some of them aren't exactly inspired, like this one (http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130920/log.514fa004e4b0b79c883bb727.1379700384463.txt) where he and guest6443 both piledrive Ill-Gotten Gains and... um... Villages. But it's still a damn sight less obvious than resigning to himself on Turn 1.
So kudos to Dominionologist for going the extra mile. In these dark days when Goko no longer even pretends to care (https://getsatisfaction.com/goko/topics/ottocar_is_cheating_the_pro_leaderboard), it's nice to see that someone at least is putting in a little effort.
-
Not that anyone at Goko reads these or anything, but still...
https://getsatisfaction.com/goko/topics/cheaters_at_1_and_2_on_pro_leaderboard?rfm=1
-
That is impressive. Wow.
-
If he's good enough to beat Mic Q, why not just earn his ranking legit? :-\
-
I beat Stef once, I'm not about to quit my job and go pro.
-
Maybe he has a script playing for guests.
-
Maybe he has a script playing for guests.
That is definitelly possible, I used semi automatic playing for beating adventures.
Big money by just pressing F12 and fill all zaps by pressing F11. Still it took me 4 hours (while watching TV) and most of my coins to get all 3 unbuyable promos.
-
If he's good enough to beat Mic Q, why not just earn his ranking legit? :-\
I can beat Mic Q, too, every once in a while. Winning occasionally doesn't make me once of the top 3 players, though.
He's probably a good player looking to pad his ranking for fun or bragging rights to his friends or something. Or maybe he just really wants a digital medal by his name. He couldn't earn a top 3 spot on his own.
-
I wonder if Dominionologist is aware that he's basically going the extra mile for nothing, given the state of Goko's maintenance right now.
-
Haven't looked at what rating he's cheated himself to, so this may be moot, but: having a higher rating generally gets you games with better players. I had a rating around 5500 for a little while and now for some reason can't get out of my 4700-4800 rut, and not being able to join the 5k+ games is keeping the games I play less interesting. It's possible he was wanting those rating points just to get games with better players.
-
I'd been aware of this pyramid technique right from the very first discussion of isotropic rating manipulators and I'm guessing others were aware too (and we didn't publicize it of course). I'm a bit surprised that nobody had been discovered using it before as some manipulator would surely have tried it back on isotropic too, even though it might have needed a bigger pyramid.
-
Not that anyone at Goko reads these or anything, but still...
https://getsatisfaction.com/goko/topics/cheaters_at_1_and_2_on_pro_leaderboard?rfm=1
I wonder when Goko is going to acknowledge this report in any way
1) in 2014
2) in 2015
3) never
-
Not that anyone at Goko reads these or anything, but still...
https://getsatisfaction.com/goko/topics/cheaters_at_1_and_2_on_pro_leaderboard?rfm=1
I wonder when Goko is going to acknowledge this report in any way
1) in 2014
2) in 2015
3) never
4) The question is moot. Goko will go out of business in 2014.
-
Not that anyone at Goko reads these or anything, but still...
https://getsatisfaction.com/goko/topics/cheaters_at_1_and_2_on_pro_leaderboard?rfm=1
I wonder when Goko is going to acknowledge this report in any way
1) in 2014
2) in 2015
3) never
4) The question is moot. Goko will go out of business in 2014.
I think it's great to see just how positive the community is about the only current place we can play Dominion Online. Well, really it's great to see people thinking they'll last even that long. There's still like 7 weeks left in this year for them to shut down, you know.
-
Not that anyone at Goko reads these or anything, but still...
https://getsatisfaction.com/goko/topics/cheaters_at_1_and_2_on_pro_leaderboard?rfm=1
I wonder when Goko is going to acknowledge this report in any way
1) in 2014
2) in 2015
3) never
4) The question is moot. Goko will go out of business in 2014.
I think it's great to see just how positive the community is about the only current place we can play Dominion Online. Well, really it's great to see people thinking they'll last even that long. There's still like 7 weeks left in this year for them to shut down, you know.
All I want for Christmas is for Goko to die.
-
All I want for Christmas is for Goko to die.
You guys keep saying this like isotropic's going to magically reappear once Goko goes away. That's not necessarily the case.
I like Goko just fine now. I hope they continue to improve. If they die, who knows when—if ever—we'll have another way to play Dominion online.
-
I was liking Goko just fine, but now I feel like it's really slow all the time, and it's very hard to find high ranked opponents.
-
Rumours of isotropic relaunch by doug.....http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9780.msg313009#msg313009 (http://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ)
-
All I want for Christmas is for Goko to die.
Although I dislike Goko, I feel like this is a little harsh and against the spirit of Christmas. Rather, in the spirit of the 12 days of Christmas here is a reasonable list of things for Goko to do.
1.) Fix management
2.) Interact and respond to issues with the playerbase (e.g. cheaters)
3.) Remove server instability
4.) Allow all promos to be bought
5.) Implement automatch
6.) Provide a more cohesive lobby structure
7.) Revamp game interface
8.) Cards like Hamlet, JoaT, Urchin, Storeroom etc. need looking at for inconvenience
9.) Devise a long-term business plan (they need money if they're going to stay afloat and it won't continue to come from Dominion)
10.) Make gamelog easier to follow (tab stuff, colorize it, anything would be better than their current efforts)
11.) Allow users to have a friends list
12.) Allow users to propose games to certain players
-
All I want for Christmas is for Goko to die.
Although I dislike Goko, I feel like this is a little harsh and against the spirit of Christmas. Rather, in the spirit of the 12 days of Christmas here is a reasonable list of things for Goko to do.
1.) Fix management
2.) Interact and respond to issues with the playerbase (e.g. cheaters)
3.) Remove server instability
4.) Allow all promos to be bought
5.) Implement automatch
6.) Provide a more cohesive lobby structure
7.) Revamp game interface
8.) Cards like Hamlet, JoaT, Urchin, Storeroom etc. need looking at for inconvenience
9.) Devise a long-term business plan (they need money if they're going to stay afloat and it won't continue to come from Dominion)
10.) Make gamelog easier to follow (tab stuff, colorize it, anything would be better than their current efforts)
11.) Allow users to have a friends list
12.) Allow users to propose games to certain players
I like your list, but trying to sing it to the "meter" of 12 Days of Christmas doesn't work very well. ;D
-
FIIIIIIIVE IMPLEMENT AUTOMATCH!!!!!
-
I was liking Goko just fine, but now I feel like it's really slow all the time, and it's very hard to find high ranked opponents.
I was liking goko just fine, but then I missclicked myself into one of WW's old isotropic videos, and remembered just how terrible goko really is in comparison.
-
You guys keep saying this like isotropic's going to magically reappear once Goko goes away. That's not necessarily the case.
This is hypothetical (though becoming less hypothetical by the day!) but interesting to discuss, so let's walk through this scenario.
I have no knowledge of Goko's financials, but at this point they may be essentially all-in on whatever they launch next to show some success. Let's assume it doesn't do well enough to justify their continued existence.
Then, because they have no subscription revenue, the Goko Dominion servers will shut down at some point. Keeping them running would be pretty expensive, if only because somebody would need to be paid to maintain them. Goko Dominion customers would be unable to continue playing on the service.
Then something would happen with the license. Since I don't know what the contract is like, let's assume that RGG and Donald X have enough control to allow isotropic provided that whoever receives the license doesn't launch a desktop online Dominion themselves.
I figure the new license-holder would not be eager to implement desktop online Dominion. For one thing, paid customers of Goko Dominion would be reluctant to pay yet again for essentially the same service. Even if they did, the failure of Goko Dominion (in this hypothetical where it did fail) would suggest that there isn't enough of a market there to be worth serving.
So, I expect the license-holder would be more inclined to make implementations of Dominion that are either offline, mobile, or both. That would leave a void where desktop online Dominion used to be. In this situation, I think paying customers of Goko Dominion (like myself) would be justified in feeling a little done wrong if alternative implementations of desktop online Dominion were forbidden. For that reason, I think RGG and Donald X would give the OK for isotropic Dominion to re-launch if dougz wanted to re-launch it.
Would dougz re-launch isotropic Dominion if allowed? I have no idea, but since he's actively developing isotropic Innovation, the server at least is maintained, so it's not inconceivable that he might take on maintaining isotropic Dominion again.
But let's suppose dougz didn't have enough time or interest to re-launch isotropic Dominion. In that case, I think it'd be just a matter of time until some programmer (with lots of free time, with no online Dominion to play!) made an alternative server. Private servers like that exist already, I think. They wouldn't be as good as isotropic at first, true.
Conclusion: if Goko went down, it's fairly likely that isotropic Dominion would re-appear. If not, the second-most-likely scenario is some other free online Dominion to take its place.
-
Rumours of isotropic relaunch by doug.....http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9780.msg313009#msg313009 (http://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ)
Funnily, I cannot read this message thanks to the board maintainer's quibble with the national music copyright clearing site.
-
Rumours of isotropic relaunch by doug.....http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9780.msg313009#msg313009 (http://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ)
Fuck you lol, you really got my hopes up :(
-
Then, because they have no subscription revenue, the Goko Dominion servers will shut down at some point. Keeping them running would be pretty expensive, if only because somebody would need to be paid to maintain them. Goko Dominion customers would be unable to continue playing on the service.
...
I figure the new license-holder would not be eager to implement desktop online Dominion. For one thing, paid customers of Goko Dominion would be reluctant to pay yet again for essentially the same service. Even if they did, the failure of Goko Dominion (in this hypothetical where it did fail) would suggest that there isn't enough of a market there to be worth serving.
I'm more optimistic. Dominion isn't particularly resource-intensive (i.e. doesn't require a lot of hardware), and doesn't evolve over time (i.e. doesn't require a lot of maintenance). In addition to iso, at least three different forum members have developed free simulators that run fast enough to serve as the back-end for all of Goko.
Alternatively, there are plenty of game servers (http://armorgames.com/), even for server-driven multiplayer games (http://games.yahoo.com) and low-latency real time multiplayer games (http://www.kongregate.com/games/Jiggmin/platform-racing-2) that cover both maintenance and development with just ad revenue. Any such company could pick Goko's Dominion or reimplement it better with ease. The only real danger is that Goko/RGG somehow screws up the transition.
-
The only real danger is that Goko/RGG somehow screws up the transition.
I doubt RGG would even bother to press charges when they don't offer an alternative themselves. I think even now there's still a free public dominion version running somewhere in Japanese.
-
Rumours of isotropic relaunch by doug.....http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9780.msg313009#msg313009 (http://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ)
(http://assets0.ordienetworks.com/images/GifGuide/clapping/citizen_cane.gif) (http://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ)
I particularly like what the (apparent) link actually goes to.
-
I'm more optimistic. Dominion isn't particularly resource-intensive (i.e. doesn't require a lot of hardware), and doesn't evolve over time (i.e. doesn't require a lot of maintenance). In addition to iso, at least three different forum members have developed free simulators that run fast enough to serve as the back-end for all of Goko.
Alternatively, there are plenty of game servers, even for server-driven multiplayer games and low-latency real time multiplayer games that cover both maintenance and development with just ad revenue. Any such company could pick Goko's Dominion or reimplement it better with ease. The only real danger is that Goko/RGG somehow screws up the transition.
I made my own card game a while back and looked into what sort of legal protections there are.
Quite frankly, its incredibly difficult to trademark, patent or even copyright a card game, and even more so an online computer version of said game, as long as the copiers don't use the official artwork, or quote the official rules. (In fact, that's pretty much the only way to defend a card game). Most games avoid these issues because it's not that easy to make a card game, its not that easy to make an online game, the threat of a lawsuit (even if it would go nowhere) isn't really worth the trouble for most people, and game publishers rush to establish market presence so everyone knows who the ripoffs are.
Pretty much the only reason nobody has made a competing site for Goko is that everyone with the ability and inclination to do so likes Donald X. and/or RGG too much to do that.
-
Pretty much the only reason nobody has made a competing site for Goko is that everyone with the ability and inclination to do so likes Donald X. and/or RGG too much to do that.
The only one with something to loose is Goko. Unless DXV or RGG is getting a significant percentage of Goko's winnings on Dominion, which I doubt, Goko is the license propietary, so they are the only ones with something to be ripped off.
-
Rumours of isotropic relaunch by doug.....http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9780.msg313009#msg313009 (http://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ)
(http://assets0.ordienetworks.com/images/GifGuide/clapping/citizen_cane.gif) (http://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ)
I particularly like what the (apparent) link actually goes to.
Awww, im glad someone noticed! in joke in an in joke!
-
Rumours of isotropic relaunch by doug.....http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9780.msg313009#msg313009 (http://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ)
(http://assets0.ordienetworks.com/images/GifGuide/clapping/citizen_cane.gif) (http://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ)
I particularly like what the (apparent) link actually goes to.
Awww, im glad someone noticed! in joke in an in joke!
I'm mostly wondering if anyone idly clicked on the hyperlink in the picture as well, and then proceeded to feel doubly trolled.
-
Rumours of isotropic relaunch by doug.....http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9780.msg313009#msg313009 (http://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ)
I particularly like what the (apparent) link actually goes to.
Awww, im glad someone noticed! in joke in an in joke!
I'm mostly wondering if anyone idly clicked on the hyperlink in the picture as well, and then proceeded to feel doubly trolled.
RICKCEPTION
-
Dominionologist, Goko's mysterious #2 ranked player, is a cheat. But he's really a much finer class of cheat than we've ever had before. I had to run some fancy-pants queries on the drunkensailor database to figure out what he's been doing. I don't think I could have spotted it just by looking at his log search record.
Here's his scam:
- Create a guest account and establish its rating.
- Lose a bunch of games to your main account.
- Repeat.
And here's the evidence (see attached files):
- 30 of Dominionologists 450 pro games were played against four "superstar" guests.
- These guests had all established very high ratings, mostly by clobbering mid-range players but also by winning a handful of games against hotshots like jog and Mic Q.
- Dominiologist won every single one of those 30 games.
This is really much more sophisticated than what ooksoo did or what ottocar does. It's only possible because Dominiologist is already a fairly strong player and because of some formula-defying nonsense of Goko's rating system (he's only #64 on Isotropish). He also puts in a lot of extra effort to make it look good:
- Over 90% of his games are real matches against real opponents, so the sham games don't stand out.
- His guests behave plausibly. He interleaves the games he plays as a guest with those he plays as himself and with the sham games they play against each other. He spaces the guest's games out over days to make the pattern less obvious.
- He actually plays out the sham games. Now admittedly, some of them aren't exactly inspired, like this one (http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130920/log.514fa004e4b0b79c883bb727.1379700384463.txt) where he and guest6443 both piledrive Ill-Gotten Gains and... um... Villages. But it's still a damn sight less obvious than resigning to himself on Turn 1.
So kudos to Dominionologist for going the extra mile. In these dark days when Goko no longer even pretends to care (https://getsatisfaction.com/goko/topics/ottocar_is_cheating_the_pro_leaderboard), it's nice to see that someone at least is putting in a little effort.
This is still happening. Leck, the #1 ranked Casual player, uses fake accounts to acquire a high ranking.
While not so well hidden or sophisticated as Dominionologist's, Leck's efforts are just as effective, allowing him to get a rating of 9023 points.
Leck uses four fake accounts for free wins: kaito, Habanero, whiteman and SID.
Here is the proof; around 120 games that end on first turn in Leck's favor: http://goo.gl/NCpav6
Adios,
TheNark
-
i'm really struggling to understand the motivation behind this. you're investing time for... nothing. you don't gain money, you don't get better at the game, you simply cause some people to think that you're good. that's an irrational advantage.
in a way it's taking somehting that isn't yours, but you're not even getting anything... it just makes no sense.
-
Yeah I agree.
I mean I know there are a lot of crazy messed up people in the world out there, but even so...
I'm struggling to find time to get a few games of dominion every other week... and someone has all that time on their hands and they can't think of anything better than to game their way to the top of the casual leaderboards of a niche board game being played on a buggy online interface. Talk about lack of ambition.
-
5.) Implement automatch
12.) Allow users to propose games to certain players
Not implementing these two things is completely unacceptable for any online multiplayer game. (I assume they're still not implemented)
-
Rumours of isotropic relaunch by doug.....http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9780.msg313009#msg313009 (http://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ)
Ozle you've crossed from harmless troll to douchebag :(
-
Rumours of isotropic relaunch by doug.....http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9780.msg313009#msg313009 (http://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ)
Ozle you've crossed from harmless troll to douchebag :(
I'm pretty sure theory posted the actual link:
They are hidden at the request of very powerful people. However, I can disclose the thread titles:
- "I have secretly restarted Isotropic at a new URL (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?board=50.0). Please don't tell Donald" by dougz
- "Wow, turns out Scout/Chancellor is the optimal opening on this board" by Geronimoo
-
i'm really struggling to understand the motivation behind this. you're investing time for... nothing. you don't gain money, you don't get better at the game, you simply cause some people to think that you're good. that's an irrational advantage.
in a way it's taking somehting that isn't yours, but you're not even getting anything... it just makes no sense.
People like earning trophies. Some people have a more inclusive definition of "earning" than others.